What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[dzheremi]

Yeah, forgive me, but I’m not seeing Mardukm’s special “Petrine sandwich” anywhere in these crucial official sources, either.

It is not my business what anyone wants to address or ignore, my only point was that to brush off honest questions that have been asked by former Catholics, and echoed by both questioning Catholics (Gurney) and faithful Catholics (Formosus) as “academic”, and to give all kinds of silly reasons why no one can say what is infallible is…well…I don’t know how to say it…let’s just say it makes the Catholic position look extremely odd, and the defenses of the same extremely weak. Sure, you may get out of a tough spot with a relatively clean conscience, but what about those people who were looking for answers and didn’t find them? Isn’t the point of having this system whereby everything is defined from sacrosanct (or darn near!) “official sources” that there won’t this ambiguity that makes it hard to actually live under such a situation?

 

[mardukm]

I’ve bolded the part that has caused me confusion. Please, Mardukm, I don’t want to argue with you any more than necessary. Why not ask your question to the person who originally wrote that?

I have no problem with what Tantum ergo wrote because he was just expressing his own opinion. But I have a problem with what you wrote:
because your church has unwisely embraced progressive revelation?

If you want no argument, then don’t misrepresent the Catholic CHURCH. Back up your claim if you can - show us where the Church has ever taught this “progressive revelation.” Otherwise, retract your statement.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

give all kinds of silly reasons why no one can say what is infallible is…well…

When and where did I say “no one can say what is infallible?”

I don’t know how to say it…

Then be quiet.

let’s just say it makes the Catholic position look extremely odd, and the defenses of the same extremely weak.

No one here is clamoring for the necessity of such a list. Only the non-Catholics. Which makes the non-catholic position extremely inconsistent.

Sure, you may get out of a tough spot with a relatively clean conscience, but what about those people who were looking for answers and didn’t find them? Isn’t the point of having this system whereby everything is defined from sacrosanct (or darn near!) “official sources” that there won’t this ambiguity that makes it hard to actually live under such a situation?

Those who have a struggle with their faith because of this issue don’t need people outside the Church egging on their doubts. If you can’t offer a solution for them, then you should not be in the conversation. If your only purpose is to incite doubt in them, then you shouldn’t be in the conversation, as well.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[dzheremi]

When and where did I say “no one can say what is infallible?”

You don’t have to have said it, because other people struggle with this same topic precisely because it is so difficult to get a handle on what is infallible and what is not. The fact that you don’t is great, and I should hope it would help you to help those who are not as strong as you are, but instead, as you have shown in the rest of your reply, you are not terribly interested in doing that.

Then be quiet.

No. Are you a priest now, content to talk to me this way just because I don’t find you persuasive? Aqabil el ayady, ya qods abouna?

No one here is clamoring for the necessity of such a list. Only the non-Catholics. Which makes the non-catholic position extremely inconsistent.

Formosus, a faithful Catholic, has asked for further clarification as well. Whether it comes in a list form or not, I think that this request should be honored.

Those who have a struggle with their faith because of this issue don’t need people outside the Church egging on their doubts.

Indeed they don’t. They already have them. They need people like you to help them and not brush them off.

 

[dzheremi]

I have no problem with what Tantum ergo wrote because he was just expressing his own opinion. But I have a problem with what you wrote:
because your church has unwisely embraced progressive revelation?

If you want no argument, then don’t misrepresent the Catholic CHURCH. Back up your claim if you can - show us where the Church has ever taught this “progressive revelation.” Otherwise, retract your statement.

Um…if you read what Tantum Ergo wrote about other teachings being added on later, that should be enough because that’s what happens with progressive revelation, whether the Catholic Church calls it by that term or not.

 

[LIT56RD]

I asked the same question a couple of weeks ago on another thread. It starts at this link and goes on for quite a while. Was pretty much told that no list exists. And if I insist on seeing a list I am really not what is needed to be a catholic. I need to accept what ever is said and not ask for some dumb old list that no one will provide or even has. This is very confusing to me.

 

[mardukm]

You don’t have to have said it, because other people struggle with this same topic precisely because it is so difficult to get a handle on what is infallible and what is not. The fact that you don’t is great, and I should hope it would help you to help those who are not as strong as you are, but instead, as you have shown in the rest of your reply, you are not terribly interested in doing that.

What I am not interested in doing is entertaining the ideas of people outside the Catholic Church who really have no stake in such a list, except to incite more doubt in others. I am more than willing to help Catholics, however, or non-Catholics who want to enter the Catholic Church.

No. Are you a priest now, content to talk to me this way just because I don’t find you persuasive? Aqabil el ayady, ya qods abouna?

I’m not trying to persuade you of anything. I am just asking you to remain quiet if you cannot offer any help on the matter.

Formosus, a faithful Catholic, has asked for further clarification as well. Whether it comes in a list form or not, I think that this request should be honored.

Yes.

Indeed they don’t. They already have them. They need people like you to help them and not brush them off.

Point well taken. Though I readily admit I am not sure I can help them out if a list is what they need. I can offer them reasons why such a list should not be important for their Faith and spiritual life. I suspect its a matter of scrupulosity or an intellectual desire that is really not consistent with the Eastern (or Oriental) phrenoma.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Um…if you read what Tantum Ergo wrote about other teachings being added on later, that should be enough because that’s what happens with progressive revelation, whether the Catholic Church calls it by that term or not.

Well, the Catholic Church formally teaches that all public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. So whatever Tantum Ergo claims, if it does not align with what the Catholic Magisterium teaches, obviously cannot be applied to the Catholic Church herself, right?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Harpazo]

I asked the same question a couple of weeks ago on another thread. It starts at this link and goes on for quite a while. Was pretty much told that no list exists. And if I insist on seeing a list I am really not what is needed to be a catholic. I need to accept what ever is said and not ask for some dumb old list that no one will provide or even has. This is very confusing to me.

Why need a list when you have the pope to control the entire church? You don’t need nothin’ else!

Sec. 22 of Lumen Gentium: But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope’s power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.(27*) This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock;(157) it is evident, however, that the power of binding and loosing, which was given to Peter,(158) was granted also to the college of apostles, joined with their head.

and why worry about such a list when you should just submit your mind and will to the pope of Rome anyway?

Sec. 25 of Lumen Gentium: This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.

But of course it doesn’t REALLY mean that.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[dzheremi]

Well, the Catholic Church formally teaches that all public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. So whatever Tantum Ergo claims, if it does not align with what the Catholic Magisterium teaches, obviously cannot be applied to the Catholic Church herself, right?

In keeping with the post you are responding to you, I should state as a general principle that it doesn’t matter what the Catholic Church (or any church) says it believes if it does not live in accordance with those beliefs.

 

[Mickey]

Though I readily admit I am not sure I can help them out if a list is what they need.

Then you should follow your own advice and “be quiet.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

When and where did I say “no one can say what is infallible?”

Then be quiet.

No one here is clamoring for the necessity of such a list. Only the non-Catholics. Which makes the non-catholic position extremely inconsistent.

Those who have a struggle with their faith because of this issue don’t need people outside the Church egging on their doubts. If you can’t offer a solution for them, then you should not be in the conversation. If your only purpose is to incite doubt in them, then you shouldn’t be in the conversation, as well.

Blessings,
Marduk

This has become a concern on “all” the EO posts as of lately. And its very sad and very noticable to everyone. Catholic’s have become apprehensive to participate in a conversation loaded with such obvious intentions.

You ever hear the saying “When you think your looking good, your looking bad?” Thats the new level we are at here as Christians. It confirms Benedicts thoughts on the EO and CC relationship that the real issue is a lack of Christian love.

May God have Mercy on us.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Mickey]

It confirms Benedicts thoughts on the EO and CC relationship that the real issue is a lack of Christian love.

It is much more than that my friend. There are real theological and doctrinal differences that must be resolved. These issues must be resolved without compromise. Discussion should continue in the spirit of true Christian love and understanding. If there is going to be a resolution, it will be on God’s time.

 

[rinnie]

No. These are not merely opinions of the pope. These are Church doctrines on grave sins.

Correct and what People need to realize is we need to be taught.

Jesus told his Apostles to Go and teach the good news. Not give them some scripture and let them read it and do what they choose.

When St Peter began his teaching he did not say why don’t we do this, or that.

He said the word of God says this or that. It was not open for debate.

Today People seem to think that it is open for debate or something.

If we can choose to Listen to the Pope or not why did God tell the Apostles to go and teach. When you are a teacher you are the leader.

The problem today is the student wants to be the teacher. That is what comes to my mind when People refuse to listen to the Pope.

The Pope is the teacher and he gets his teachings straight from the Holy Spirit. Just as God promised I will give you the words. Nothing has changed.

 

[KathleenGee]

People are trying to find answers without context, dates, events; and that there are degrees of truth. Non-Catholics do not recognize the presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit in the office of our ecclesiastics. Thus, anything is taken out of context that does not reflect the reality of communion we share in God with the papacy and our clergy. Our focus in relating to the pope and bishops is centered on Christ, not their humanity, opinions, or convictions.

The Shepherd knows his flock and his flock knows him. We can recognize the degree of perspective in papal pronouncements, so much of them proposals or invitations – into the greater reality of Jesus Christ.

I have never perceived the authority of a priest, bishop or pope as male, or assumed. I recognize the working of the Holy Spirit when a decree or directive is suggested or proposed that is pertinent to me. But I enjoy the liberty of Christ, His freedom and new life as a Roman Catholic.

Non-Catholics, in my opinion, look too much to men. As a Catholic, we are orientated to look at Christ.

Papal authority was not defined as we know it until Pope Innocent III. So what happened, why did the papacy define it self as such? You have to look at history, at barbarian invasions, at heresies and schisms. Power swayed back and forth between the papacy and church and temporal rulers.

It came to the point that the local Christian did not know who to follow, and feudal conflicts were fracturing the faith. The proclamation of ‘The Truce of God’ defined the will of God over the temporal order, representing the religious sense of order and righteousness and this gave stability to disorder in medieval times.

The office of the Church is the public witness that transcends all human enterprise to proclaim Jesus Christ, His Good News, and morality to a world much in need.

There are degrees of truth. First, we must look to the spirit of the Church in understanding our faith in the light of the times we live in. We must first affirm the teacher, the guide. Today, the highest degree of truth in the Church in Vatican II.

The second degree of truth is Christian morality, found in the universal catechism.

Next are papal encyclicals, but not all encyclicals bear the same degree of truth. It depends on the context.

Fourth, are decrees that can be given in union with the pope by the Congregation of Faith dealing with sacred Tradition. Cardinal Ratzinger made a decree in union with Pope John Paul II that women are not called to priestly ordination.

To make sense of what to follow or not, we have our local bishop and administrators that bring to our attention what we should know. The latest is the new translation of English in the Mass, to make its usage more universal like other languages, and to further clarify the relationship between God and Christ…Jesus consubstantiated with the Father in the Nicene Creed. The English translation is actually very similar to the use of English before Vatican II.

In regards to Humanae Vitae, if you know the tradition of sexuality among early Christians–most used sex for procreation and lived penitential lives, to seeing the fall out from free sex today, Pope Paul VI was most prophetic.

 

[Mickey]

Today, the highest degree of truth in the Church is Vatican II.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Discussion should continue in the spirit of true Christian love and understanding.

Agree’d:thumbsup:

God Bless, Gary

 

[Harpazo]

People are trying to find answers without context, dates, events; and that there are degrees of truth. Non-Catholics do not recognize the presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit in the office of our ecclesiastics. Thus, anything is taken out of context that does not reflect the reality of communion we share in God with the papacy and our clergy. Our focus in relating to the pope and bishops is centered on Christ, not their humanity, opinions, or convictions.

The Shepherd knows his flock and his flock knows him. We can recognize the degree of perspective in papal pronouncements, so much of them proposals or invitations – into the greater reality of Jesus Christ.

I have never perceived the authority of a priest, bishop or pope as male, or assumed. I recognize the working of the Holy Spirit when a decree or directive is suggested or proposed that is pertinent to me. But I enjoy the liberty of Christ, His freedom and new life as a Roman Catholic.

Non-Catholics, in my opinion, look too much to men. As a Catholic, we are orientated to look at Christ.

Papal authority was not defined as we know it until Pope Innocent III. So what happened, why did the papacy define it self as such? You have to look at history, at barbarian invasions, at heresies and schisms. Power swayed back and forth between the papacy and church and temporal rulers.

It came to the point that the local Christian did not know who to follow, and feudal conflicts were fracturing the faith. The proclamation of ‘The Truce of God’ defined the will of God over the temporal order, representing the religious sense of order and righteousness and this gave stability to disorder in medieval times.

The office of the Church is the public witness that transcends all human enterprise to proclaim Jesus Christ, His Good News, and morality to a world much in need.

There are degrees of truth. First, we must look to the spirit of the Church in understanding our faith in the light of the times we live in. We must first affirm the teacher, the guide. Today, the highest degree of truth in the Church in Vatican II.

The second degree of truth is Christian morality, found in the universal catechism.

Next are papal encyclicals, but not all encyclicals bear the same degree of truth. It depends on the context.

Fourth, are decrees that can be given in union with the pope by the Congregation of Faith dealing with sacred Tradition. Cardinal Ratzinger made a decree in union with Pope John Paul II that women are not called to priestly ordination.

To make sense of what to follow or not, we have our local bishop and administrators that bring to our attention what we should know. The latest is the new translation of English in the Mass, to make its usage more universal like other languages, and to further clarify the relationship between God and Christ…Jesus consubstantiated with the Father in the Nicene Creed. The English translation is actually very similar to the use of English before Vatican II.

In regards to Humanae Vitae, if you know the tradition of sexuality among early Christians–most used sex for procreation and lived penitential lives, to seeing the fall out from free sex today, Pope Paul VI was most prophetic.

Could you qualify this statement?

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[rinnie]

People are trying to find answers without context, dates, events; and that there are degrees of truth. Non-Catholics do not recognize the presence of Christ and the Holy Spirit in the office of our ecclesiastics. Thus, anything is taken out of context that does not reflect the reality of communion we share in God with the papacy and our clergy. Our focus in relating to the pope and bishops is centered on Christ, not their humanity, opinions, or convictions.

The Shepherd knows his flock and his flock knows him. We can recognize the degree of perspective in papal pronouncements, so much of them proposals or invitations – into the greater reality of Jesus Christ.

I have never perceived the authority of a priest, bishop or pope as male, or assumed. I recognize the working of the Holy Spirit when a decree or directive is suggested or proposed that is pertinent to me. But I enjoy the liberty of Christ, His freedom and new life as a Roman Catholic.

Non-Catholics, in my opinion, look too much to men. As a Catholic, we are orientated to look at Christ.

Papal authority was not defined as we know it until Pope Innocent III. So what happened, why did the papacy define it self as such? You have to look at history, at barbarian invasions, at heresies and schisms. Power swayed back and forth between the papacy and church and temporal rulers.

It came to the point that the local Christian did not know who to follow, and feudal conflicts were fracturing the faith. The proclamation of ‘The Truce of God’ defined the will of God over the temporal order, representing the religious sense of order and righteousness and this gave stability to disorder in medieval times.

The office of the Church is the public witness that transcends all human enterprise to proclaim Jesus Christ, His Good News, and morality to a world much in need.

There are degrees of truth. First, we must look to the spirit of the Church in understanding our faith in the light of the times we live in. We must first affirm the teacher, the guide. Today, the highest degree of truth in the Church in Vatican II.

The second degree of truth is Christian morality, found in the universal catechism.

Next are papal encyclicals, but not all encyclicals bear the same degree of truth. It depends on the context.

Fourth, are decrees that can be given in union with the pope by the Congregation of Faith dealing with sacred Tradition. Cardinal Ratzinger made a decree in union with Pope John Paul II that women are not called to priestly ordination.

To make sense of what to follow or not, we have our local bishop and administrators that bring to our attention what we should know. The latest is the new translation of English in the Mass, to make its usage more universal like other languages, and to further clarify the relationship between God and Christ…Jesus consubstantiated with the Father in the Nicene Creed. The English translation is actually very similar to the use of English before Vatican II.

In regards to Humanae Vitae, if you know the tradition of sexuality among early Christians–most used sex for procreation and lived penitential lives, to seeing the fall out from free sex today, Pope Paul VI was most prophetic.

And think about it Kath who could stand up right now and say that they feel that they are given more authority and power then the Pope.

When they can show me that they got the keys to the Kingdom, we can talk. Until then there is really not much to say.

When you ask where did you get your authority. The Pope can answer as the scripture tells us from Jesus Christ. It was handed down through Apostolic Succession.

 

[dzheremi]

Not to disagree with Pope Benedict (after all, I don’t know the context in which he may have made the statement that Gary referenced), but I find it incredibly hard to see how the primary problem in Catholic-Orthodox relations is a lack of love, not because that couldn’t be improved or made more explicit in the context of discussion (certainly it could and should), but because doctrinal disagreement does not mean that you don’t love the person you disagree with. Certainly it strikes Catholics as massively unfair when Protestants argue that Catholics are hateful as a rule, as they sometimes do. We must remember first that, regardless of how vociferous any individual may be in disagreement, the churches themselves both recognize a lot of shared history, doctrine, and (most importantly, in my eyes) saints. This is a basis for discussion, too, and one that I think might prove more fruitful in terms of making real progress with Orthodox Christians, as love should be given freely even in the absence of such agreement, since we are Christians and that is what we do.