What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[Anna_Scott]

Why are you worried about not having Salvation?

Gary,


Aren’t we all, to some extent or another?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

How could this possibly be done? You cannot find two Roman Catholics who agree on what has been infallibly declared.

I was about to say that same exact thing. Man, we are two for two, Mickey!

In Christ,
Andrew

As I said in previous posts, I think it is impossible to answer the OP’s question, since even Catholics cannot agree on what is and is not infallible; and it seems in flux throughout the centuries. I’d be happy if I could just get a clear idea of the infallible teachings on salvation.

Peace,
Anna

 

[rinnie]

Christ is the Head. The Apostles and prophets are the foundation.

---

Eph 2:19-20
Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone:

We can read in Matt 16:19 that the keys are connected with authority to bind and loose. In Matt 18:18 we see that all the apostles received this authority (see also Jn 20:22-23). St Peter and all the Apostles hold the keys by virtue of the power to bind and loose—and through the holy Apostles to Christ’s Church.

And therefore it is said to him, preferentially, after the confession: "And I give thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: and if thou bindest upon the earth, it will be bound in the Heavens: and if thou loosenest upon the earth, it will be loosened in the Heavens (Mt 16; 19). Wherefore it was not one man, but rather the One Universal Church, that received these “keys” and the right “to bind and loosen.” And that actually it was the Church that received this right, and not exclusively a single person, turn your attention to another place of the Scriptures, where the same Lord says to also all His Apostles: “Receive ye the Holy Spirit” – and further after this: “Whoseso sins ye remit, are remitted them: and whoseso sins ye retain, are retained” (Jn 20:22-23); or: “with what ye bind upon the earth, will be bound in Heaven: and with what ye loosen upon the earth, will be loosened in the Heavens” (Mt 18:18). Thus, it is the Church that binds, the Church that loosens; the Church, built upon the foundational corner-stone – Jesus Christ Himself (Eph 2:20) doth bind and loosen. Let both the binding and the loosening be feared: the loosening, in order not to fall under this again; the binding, in order not to remain forever in this condition. Wherefore “by the passions of his own sins – says Wisdom – is each ensnared” (Prov 5:22); and except for Holy Church nowhere is it possible to receive the loosening.

St Augustine

Sorry Mickey I do not see where Jesus said to ALL of the Apostles that they have the keys to the kingdom.

The scripture is quite clear when it states AND I say TO YOU, Now you show me how Jesus is talking to all of the Apostles when he said clearly may I add SIMON SON OF JONAH…AND I SAY TO YOU, YOU are PETER and UPON this ROCK I will build my Church.

He continued speaking to SIMON SON OF JONAH may I add I give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven whatever YOU bind on earth is bound in heaven and whaever is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven.

The power to forgive sins is not the same as holding the keys to the kingdom of heaven. The power to bind and loose sin is indeed a power to forgvie sins in the name of Christ. And yes that authority was given to all.

Please show me the scripture that states that the Apostles ALSO have the keys to the kingdom. Because it is clearly Peter ALONE in the scripture.

 

[rinnie]

As I said in previous posts, I think it is impossible to answer the OP’s question, since even Catholics cannot agree on what is and is not infallible; and it seems in flux throughout the centuries. I’d be happy if I could just get a clear idea of the infallible teachings on salvation.

Peace,
Anna

Anna it is clear to me. I am Roman Catholic. I submit to the teachings of the Pope. ALL OF THEM. It does not matter to me what they are. IF the Popes says it is what I am to do. I obey.

 

[Harpazo]

Sorry Mickey I do not see where Jesus said to ALL of the Apostles that they have the keys to the kingdom.

The scripture is quite clear when it states AND I say TO YOU, Now you show me how Jesus is talking to all of the Apostles when he said clearly may I add SIMON SON OF JONAH…AND I SAY TO YOU, YOU are PETER and UPON this ROCK I will build my Church.

He continued speaking to SIMON SON OF JONAH may I add I give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven whatever YOU bind on earth is bound in heaven and whaever is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven.

The power to forgive sins is not the same as holding the keys to the kingdom of heaven. The power to bind and loose sin is indeed a power to forgvie sins in the name of Christ. And yes that authority was given to all.

Please show me the scripture that states that the Apostles ALSO have the keys to the kingdom. Because it is clearly Peter ALONE in the scripture.

I would suggest rereading what Mickey wrote. It is quote clear, both from Matthew 18:18, the passage in Ephesians and in the passage from St. Augustine.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[rinnie]

I am not opposed to the idea that the Church was built on Peter as Catholics mean. But having been exposed to Protestant arguments and thinking, and using basic analysis I see several problems with your conclusion based solely on the Bible verse.

Keys to the Kingdom almost certainly is a metaphor. I doubt, but dont claim it to be impossible, that Peter literally has keys. So what does the metaphor mean? Based solely on this verse we cant be too sure. We’d need more information.

Also that fact that it is recorded that Jesus said this to Peter does not, by itself, mean he did not say the same thing to other Apostles. He could have said this to other Apostles and it was just not recorded. And in the two translations I consulted the word only, or one like it, does not appear. So the statement, but itself, does not present an idea of strict exclusivity.

I would say if God truly is moving in the Gospel writers (and of course the Apostles) then it would seem reasonable to believe that God made sure his message was communicated appropriately. I would also say that in the context of the passage it does appear that there is a strong hint of exclusivity for Peter’s role in the church.

I say this not to nit pick or to disagree with the Catholic Church’s teaching but to express how difficult I find justification of ideas through scripture. In my Protestant experience I find all sorts of what I think are terrible and obviously wrong ideas being pulled out of scripture. I see people ignore context, ignore the full testimony of scripture, and being overly precise where there should be uncertainty. To clarify the last observation what I mean is the text is often missing words like ‘only’, ‘all’, ‘absolutely’, ‘forever’ to fully exclude any alternative.

The reason I bring this up is because for me personally I’ve grown a bit frustrated at using Bible verses to defend a position. I see people, including me, throwing Bible verses at each other to try to convince the other. It seems to rarely work to convince. I’ve spent a lot of mental energy trying to understand just what the Bible means. In many areas I feel pretty confident that I the meaning is clear. But in many other areas I’m not as sure. I see a lot of division in the Church being argued over using Bible verses that are not frankly clear or absolute in their meaning. That is why I’ve personally found myself increasingly drawn to the power of tradition.

You got it. What does it mean in the O.T. to hold the keys to the kingdom. The Jews knew quite clear what it meant. They know the O.T.

Compare this saying the keys to the Kingdom to the O.T and you have your answer.

Find out in the O.T what the key of David meant. There you will find your answer.

There you will find the Prime Minister holds the keys to the Kingdom.

 

[rinnie]

Where did I deny that Christ was the Chief CornerSTONE.

The stone that the builders rejected has become the CORNERSTONE.

Yes Christ is the cornerstone. But I never denied that he was.

I said Peter was the ROCK. Jesus build HIS CHURCH on Peter the ROCK.

I never said Christ was not the FOUNDATION the CORNERSTONE. The cornerstone is the MAIN stone of a foundation. It is what the foundation is made of.

Peter is not the cornerstone I never said he was. I said Peter was the Rock upon what Jesus said he build his Church.

Jesus is the Cornerstone Peter is the Rock, Where is the contradition here?

 

[Mickey]

I said Peter was the ROCK. Jesus build HIS CHURCH on Peter the ROCK.

He built His Church on all His Apostles and Prophets–including St Peter of course.

 

[Mickey]

Sorry Mickey I do not see where Jesus said to ALL of the Apostles that they have the keys to the kingdom.

Read Matt 16:19…Matt 18:18…and Jn 20:22-23. It is quite clear. St Augustine helps to explain it for us.

St John Chrysostom talks about the Apostle St John having the keys of heaven here:

For the Son of thunder, the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom, with much confidence, this man now comes forward to us now.
St John Chrysosotom, Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 1.1

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thank you for answering my question. You agree the statement in Unam Sanctam: “We declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff,” is an infallible teaching,

-----but even though this infallible teaching says, “it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff,” some human creatures, not subject to the Roman Pontiff, will be saved? Doesn’t that contract the infallible teaching?

-----Did Unam Sanctam, which you say is an infallible teaching, define the exceptions of which you speak–to clear up this apparent contradiction?

Gary quoted Unam Sanctam in Post #123:

-----If Unam Sanctam didn’t define exceptions; at what point in history were these “exceptions” defined? Please provide sources.

I’m trying to understand the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church regarding salvation, so I can answer the OP’s question about whether or not I object. I’m also trying to understand how the issue of infallibility works in the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Anna

Anna it is clear to me. I am Roman Catholic. I submit to the teachings of the Pope. ALL OF THEM. It does not matter to me what they are. IF the Popes says it is what I am to do. I obey.

rinnie,
That is nice to know, but you did not answer even one question that I asked you.


Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna it is clear to me. I am Roman Catholic. I submit to the teachings of the Pope. ALL OF THEM. It does not matter to me what they are. IF the Popes says it is what I am to do. I obey.

If you “submit to the teachings of the Pope. ALL OF THEM”, as you said,

-----then you agree with Pope Eugene IV,

-----and if you agree with Pope Eugene IV–then you agree that pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

----If pagans, “Jews, heretics, and schismatics” are going to hell; who is left as the “exception” for salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Pope Eugene IV:
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Peace,
Anna

 

[KathleenGee]

While in the missions, I got this scruple about people not knowing Christ…would they go to hell…

So I asked the missionary provencial this question…it came not from Pope Eugenie…but from my Catholic student friends who got very involved in the Charismatic movement, and from that, like many Catholics, left it to become evangelicals. They said if you don’t accept Jesus, you are lost.

He turned the question back to me…oh, this was about 1974…If you saw an African here helping others, being kind and peaceful, not stealing or lying…would you condemn him to hell? I said no. He said neither would God.

I still agree. Those who Pope Eugenie referred to were those who refused the signs of God all around him.

My superior and I had to drive out to our Catholic community out in the bush. He had received word that boys who grew up in this community, were turning wild. They were doing strange things, getting drunk, and frightening everyone there. We drove up, and came to where the problems were happening. There was this small hut and out came several young men, wild, one drooling…and they were told to leave this community where Christ was present. You can’t condemn them at that point…but there are many who hear the Word of God, or as in Romans and in Wisdom, can perceive a higher being, but reject Him.

Usually the best thermometer is seeing how one treats one’s neighbor.

It is all about context and dates. Luther denied that the apostolic faith was ever handed down, contradicting all the work done in the first several hundred years of Christianity. Its greatest concern was that the truth witnessed by the Apostles would be handed down.

And, Christ’s Apostles were all founders of the Church, each going to a particular part of the world. But Christ also chose Peter as the rock. He singled him out for a reason.

And in ancient times, Rome was the strength and provider of aid to the forming churches, and in unresolved disputes, was seen as the place for finality. SS Peter and Paul were martyred and buried there on the grounds of the Vatican, the remains of St. Peter now getting close to being scientifically proven. They are still verifying St. Paul’s remains. They hold the keys to the Church, for both Jew and Gentile.

By the time the Holy Father makes a pronouncement, the ideal or understanding is already incorporated universally through the bishops. Marian dogma took 2,000 years, but every culture had witnessed the presence and help of Mary in retaining their faith and coming to their aid, so by the time these dogmas were affirmed in the 1950’s, the work of Mary among us was already known.

I have never felt any directive from the Holy Father disturbing, except JPII’s denouncement of the death penalty…in terms of those who murder children…or the terrorists…he unilaterally opposed the death penalty, and personally met and forgave his near-assassin.

 

[rinnie]

He built His Church on all His Apostles and Prophets–including St Peter of course.

I do not see this scripture in ST or SS he said YOU are PETER and upon THIS ROCK I build my Church.

Now if you want to put it that way that he built his Church on the Apostles and Prophets then he build his Church on everyone. Because we are all called to be Disciples of Christ.

But he did not build it on all of his Apostles and Disciples he said PETER.

 

[rinnie]

If you “submit to the teachings of the Pope. ALL OF THEM”, as you said,

-----then you agree with Pope Eugene IV,

-----and if you agree with Pope Eugene IV–then you agree that pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

----If pagans, “Jews, heretics, and schismatics” are going to hell; who is left as the “exception” for salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Pope Eugene IV:
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Peace,
Anna

Okay Anna then you tell me can People who refuse Christ go to heaven? If you know that Christ is indeed our Lord and you refuse to accept him no matter who you are, are you getting in?

 

[rinnie]

Help me here Anna.

l Tim 2:5 For there is ONE GOD. There is also ONE mediator between GOD and the human race CHRIST JESUS himself human who gave himself as ransom for all.

What does that mean?

Why Did Jesus say you cannot get to the Father without the Son?

 

[rinnie]

If you “submit to the teachings of the Pope. ALL OF THEM”, as you said,

-----then you agree with Pope Eugene IV,

-----and if you agree with Pope Eugene IV–then you agree that pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

----If pagans, “Jews, heretics, and schismatics” are going to hell; who is left as the “exception” for salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Pope Eugene IV:
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

Peace,
Anna

And yes Anna you are right. The RCC teaches there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. IF you believe there is please show me how this is possible.

And if there is, why did Jesus HAVE to die for our sin so we could have eternal life? Is this not the true word and Gospel of our Lord. Yes or No.

If you agree please prove the Pope wrong.

 

[rinnie]

And yes Anna you are right. The RCC teaches there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. IF you believe there is please show me how this is possible.

And if there is, why did Jesus HAVE to die for our sin so we could have eternal life? Is this not the true word and Gospel of our Lord. Yes or No.

If you disagree please prove the Pope wrong.

Sorry Anna I meant disagree in the last post no agree. I thought I fixed it but I somehow screwed up.

 

[rinnie]

Anna read ST John Chrysostom of Constantinople c.387 He explains it quite clear.

 

[KathleenGee]

The second Vatican Council clarified the Church’s position about non-Catholics, Christians in general, and people of good will…all are walking on the road to salvation. Only God can judge.

The Catholic Church contains the fullness of deposit of faith in the revelation of Jesus Christ.

My former pastor said it was actually a privilege on our part that we were blessed with faith in the Eucharist. I know many Christians who bear witness to the Holy Spirit and the fruits of Jesus Christ…but do not believe in the Eucharist. They have no receptacle to understand the Eucharist, let alone the need for the seat of Peter.

I do not find the papacy calling me to do anything contrary to the will of God, or believing in anything oppressive, irrational, or inhumane. What I do see the Church calling us is to be in Spirit and in Truth, and not to be mastered by our lower nature, and to be universal in our outlook. Christ is present before every human heart.

Those who are in greatest threat of judgment are Catholics who have the fullness of faith, follow all the rules, receive the sacraments, but do not have charity in their hearts. Those who do not have charity in their hearts, will not only lose salvation in Christ, but be punished more severely. There is no language like that addressed to non-Catholics in the documents of Vatican II.

Vatican II states, on ‘Decree of Ecumenism’, that Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only, that we are called to be one. In Chapter 1, ‘In order to establish this his holy Church everywhere in the world until the end of time, Christ entrusted to the College of Twelve the task of teaching, ruling and sanctifying. Among their number he chose Peter. And after Peter’s confession of faith, he determined that on him he would build his church; to him he promised the keys to heaven, and after his profession of love, entrusted all his sheep to him to be confirmed in faith and shepherded in perfect unity, with himself, Christ Jesus, forever remaining the chief corner-stone and shepherd of our souls.’

Peter was singularly chosen. You cannot have two heads. Rome historically has been the place where disputes are resolved, although all the different churches had their own jurisdiction.

When Peter confessed his love for Christ, then Christ knew that Peter was then filled with the Holy Spirit.

All the explaining will be of no avail without the grace of the Holy Spirit. We Catholics recognize the working of the Holy Spirit in our popes, and at work in the Church…and likewise recognize it when personal opinion of these same ecclesiastics are spoken.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Thank you for answering my question. You agree the statement in Unam Sanctam: “We declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff,” is an infallible teaching,

-----but even though this infallible teaching says, “it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff,” some human creatures, not subject to the Roman Pontiff, will be saved? Doesn’t that contract the infallible teaching?

-----Did Unam Sanctam, which you say is an infallible teaching, define the exceptions of which you speak–to clear up this apparent contradiction?

Gary quoted Unam Sanctam in Post #123:

-----If Unam Sanctam didn’t define exceptions; at what point in history were these “exceptions” defined? Please provide sources.

I’m trying to understand the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church regarding salvation, so I can answer the OP’s question about whether or not I object. I’m also trying to understand how the issue of infallibility works in the Catholic Church.

Okay Anna then you tell me can People who refuse Christ go to heaven?. . . .

Help me here Anna. . . .

Neither of these posts answered even one of my questions.

rinnie,
You are the one who said there is an exception to the teaching of no salvation outside the Catholic Church—

. . . .So my answer would be a yes with the exception that there are people who do not understand the teaching or have not been taught the teaching. . . .

And yes Anna you are right. The RCC teaches there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. IF you believe there is please show me how this is possible.

And if there is, why did Jesus HAVE to die for our sin so we could have eternal life? Is this not the true word and Gospel of our Lord. Yes or No. If you agree please prove the Pope wrong.

--------And now you want me to prove the exception for you. . . .

In the spirit of cooperation I will try–though right now, the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church, on salvation, are about as clear to me as “mud” --especially considering all those Popes who claimed there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church (quoted in my post #139).

**THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
ARTICLE 9
“I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH”

Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic**

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 **Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”**323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless **seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation**.337

Link: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#839