A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Marduk,
At this point, I think we all know there is no list.
So, please just answer my questions about salvation. That is one specific issue.
Peace,
Anna
What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?
- Status
At this point, I think we all know there is no list.
So, please just answer my questions about salvation. That is one specific issue.
Peace,
Anna
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
mardukm,
How do you, as a Catholic, “live out your Faith,” if you don’t know the infallible teachings of your Church?
Peace,
Anna
M
mardukm
Guest
Dear sister Anna,
I have searched to the best of my ability by the Grace of God for His Truth. It has led me to the Catholic Church. If I am yet ignorant of anything else that is required of me for my salvation, I trust that God will convict me and lead me to the Truth through the Church.
I actually did at one point during my study of the Catholic Church make a list for myself on matters about which I had questions or doubts. And by God’s Grace I was able to find those answers. Whatever you have doubts about, make a list for yourself about issues to which you want answers. But people should not expect someone else to provide that list for them. Let God move your heart and He will guide you to search out for those Truths that He wants you to know at that point in your life. It is in His time, and He will provide.
It’s obvious - to me anyway - that when certain non-Catholics have asked for this official list in the past, it is only for the purpose of trying to demean the Catholic Church by pointing out a supposed inconsistency (not saying you are yourself doing that). Such people are just being disingenuous, for they really have no sincere want or need for such a list.
Blessings,
Marduk
But I do know what the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church are - as far as the Holy Spirit has led me to search. It’s possible I may not know all the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church, and it’s possible I may not be living them all out. But I am secure that if I am violating any of these teachings, then (1) God will not count it as a sin against me because I do not (yet) know of these teachings, and/or (2) the Holy Spirit will convict me and lead me to the Truth through the Church.
I have searched to the best of my ability by the Grace of God for His Truth. It has led me to the Catholic Church. If I am yet ignorant of anything else that is required of me for my salvation, I trust that God will convict me and lead me to the Truth through the Church.
I actually did at one point during my study of the Catholic Church make a list for myself on matters about which I had questions or doubts. And by God’s Grace I was able to find those answers. Whatever you have doubts about, make a list for yourself about issues to which you want answers. But people should not expect someone else to provide that list for them. Let God move your heart and He will guide you to search out for those Truths that He wants you to know at that point in your life. It is in His time, and He will provide.
It’s obvious - to me anyway - that when certain non-Catholics have asked for this official list in the past, it is only for the purpose of trying to demean the Catholic Church by pointing out a supposed inconsistency (not saying you are yourself doing that). Such people are just being disingenuous, for they really have no sincere want or need for such a list.
Blessings,
Marduk
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GaryTaylor
Guest
No the church of Rome was an honor bestowed upon Peter by Christ and is considered First. This is no doubt God talking to Peter. Which basically Cyprian is saying. Many of the early church fathers used different context to explain which has been interpreted in many different ways here. Some very bold in context to Rome and authority etc.
This doesn’t raise Peters authority to a higher status of the other apostles, matter of fact in 1 Cor 10:4 it even becomes an obstacle. Paul speaks at Carthage and they are worshipping Peter, Apollos, Christ etc. Paul makes the statement that Chist is the Rock. This is to re-focus the church on Jesus Christ {which it is} and not Peter. So the situation is not new it existed in Paul and the Apostles time.
Nonetheless Cyprian would be the closest. Since he further elaborates to the authority given all the apostles[did you read the last few lines of his statment]. Which is basically in line with the EO and apostolic succession. That statement from him was in regard to the schism of his day. Communion is a calling by the Pope for ALL christians to be covered by Gods hand through the apostles succession. We don’t view the EO for example as a break in the Apostles Succession.
“19Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.”
Holy Apostolic Church, surely its not in relation to two individuals standing on a street corner wishing for the same goal. Or anyone who was ordained outside of Apostolic Succession.
BTW There are also Protestant theologians who have come to believe the early church interpretation is correct.
“19Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”
And this also is in relation to the one Holy Apostolic Church. While many may believe or think as the Quakers do that any three comprise a situation where the Holy Spirit is present. [and with Gods will that may well happen] Nevertheless this is another verse which IMHO only make’s sense in NT context to point to the Church with the authority of Apostolic Succession.
Now when we look at scripture in this sense. And todays fractured church in this sense then No-Salvation outside the church becomes not such an issue. As I had mentioned earlier. The Pope isn’t speaking for the CC, he is speaking to the world. In this sense he is proclaiming where salvation does exist with an arrow pointing to it. Just as the Pope’s comment more correctly tells the tale…“We know where the church is, we do not know where it is not”.
This is where apostolic succession has existed since Christ through the apostles and of course this wouldn’t exclude the EO or any church with apostolic succession.
Obviously the situation becomes more complicated as you add schism to the context. Everyone was called to Christs Church through the apostles. Should we assume salvation exists outside this church for the 3600 other protestant denominations? We understand as I mentioned God can save anyone he so desires. But to carry a Bible and have love for the Trinity etc… or “faith alone” isn’t in context with what the Bible or History in fact states. And here now we come to the power to Bind and Loose and the Sacrements of the Church. Which only those in apostolic succession were gifted with through God.
Everyone doesn’t have this authority. Should one be touched by God outside of what he states in scripture it doesn’t distract from scripture.
The many paths to heaven theory is not taught in the Catholic Church.
The context of the Bulls also explain those who were in the Church and left, those who know of it but refuse to follow…all which is grave error. Ignorance is of course another topic.
Do I believe in No Salvation in context with how I just elaborated, most definate. Nonetheless I have no idea who God so chose’s to save outside these guidelines. And if one should conclude that they have it down enough through education and free-will to seek God elsewhere? We pray for their salvation.
Reformation and the beliefs it bought through “Faith Alone” are not even in context with what most of the Protestant denominations are doing today. Sola Scriptura is taken so far out of context today especially through the internet that its a serious deviation from the Word of God. Though I believe that these people believe in what their “opinion” is of interpretation.
God Bless, Gary
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rinnie
Guest
Anna I told you there is no Salvation outside of the CC which means the same as saving there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ.
What do you mean that if someone is not aware of this then it what somehow CHANGES the meaning?
Anna if Jesus did not come down and die on the cross we could not enter heaven. Rather this good news is shared with all or not has nothing to do with the truth.
That would be like saying that if a person needs H20 every single day and does not know that H20 is water it doesn’t make it so.
People who do not know the good news of Christ can still have the Grace of Christ given to them in other means. There is a big difference from knowing Christ and REJECTING him and not knowing him at all.
I mean even in a court of law if someone does not know the law they are not held bound to it.
What do you mean that if someone is not aware of this then it what somehow CHANGES the meaning?
Anna if Jesus did not come down and die on the cross we could not enter heaven. Rather this good news is shared with all or not has nothing to do with the truth.
That would be like saying that if a person needs H20 every single day and does not know that H20 is water it doesn’t make it so.
People who do not know the good news of Christ can still have the Grace of Christ given to them in other means. There is a big difference from knowing Christ and REJECTING him and not knowing him at all.
I mean even in a court of law if someone does not know the law they are not held bound to it.
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rinnie
Guest
Like he told you Anna you do the best you can with the Grace you are given.
If I do not know that you cannot eat meat on Fridays during lent it is not a sin. But if you know that you cannot eat meat on Fridays during lent it is a sin for YOU.
But again Anna that is what the Church is for. Jesus left us the Church to teach us. He never gave us a book to read and figure out things for ourself.
For me as a RC I must obey the Pope and the teachings of his Church. When there are disciplines and things I must obey it is told to me on Sunday in Church.
There are things we MUST do, and there are things we CAN do, Like praying the rosary every single day. That is not something we MUST do. But when we DO we are given extra GRACE from God.
Think of it in the terms of money. If you put in your 40 hours you get a regular pay. And you get by. But if you put in an extra 40 hours of time and a half and double time you get double sometimes tripple your pay. That is how Grace works. The harder you work for it the more you get ahead. The only difference you cannot compare money to God’s Grace.
But the bottom line is IN CHURCH is where we learn our faith. NOT outside of the RCC.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I just finished reading Pope Boniface’s writings and what they are doing is re-stating the marks and charism of the Catholic Church…one, holy, apostolic, Catholic church…the role of St. Peter and the need for one leader.
The Church is reeling from the Great Schism, and a number of social problems and upheaval. I just read more in depth about the Great Schism, the procedures and types of personalities the different popes were. Yes, the Church needed to be clarified, reaffirmed after such a travesty.
Jesus Christ said we cannot come to the Father except through Him. Jesus established only one Church. He is not a god of confusion or division, His constant prayer on earth that we be one.
St. Boniface is reaffirming one Church, one deposit of faith to guide people to salvation, not competing or dissenting or temporal rulers, who had alot of power and sway as to who could become pope.
You have to study pronouncements in light of the times people lived.
The Council of Trent was a reaction against the Reformation, further clarified itself, reformed itself, and it greatly strengthened the integrity of the pastoral priesthood. However, the pendulum swung out so far that this council eventually led to clericalism.
Vatican II brought the pendulum back, called for renewal and greater participation of the laity, as well as creating more ecumenism, inter-faith dialogue, and acknowledging the work of God continuing in the modern world inspite of the world’s rejection of God.
The Church is reeling from the Great Schism, and a number of social problems and upheaval. I just read more in depth about the Great Schism, the procedures and types of personalities the different popes were. Yes, the Church needed to be clarified, reaffirmed after such a travesty.
Jesus Christ said we cannot come to the Father except through Him. Jesus established only one Church. He is not a god of confusion or division, His constant prayer on earth that we be one.
St. Boniface is reaffirming one Church, one deposit of faith to guide people to salvation, not competing or dissenting or temporal rulers, who had alot of power and sway as to who could become pope.
You have to study pronouncements in light of the times people lived.
The Council of Trent was a reaction against the Reformation, further clarified itself, reformed itself, and it greatly strengthened the integrity of the pastoral priesthood. However, the pendulum swung out so far that this council eventually led to clericalism.
Vatican II brought the pendulum back, called for renewal and greater participation of the laity, as well as creating more ecumenism, inter-faith dialogue, and acknowledging the work of God continuing in the modern world inspite of the world’s rejection of God.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Anna,
I am curious…where did you first find these papal writings…what was the source?
These compilations look out of context to their times. Like we are to be robots…
Look at papal infallibility in context to the Catholic Catechism…its whole, not parts. We do not relate to faith experience in parts in isolation, but rather to the whole of religious experience. Same with Sacred Scriptures…we approach it from its whole context in relation to the people of faith in salvation history…all connected to each other.
The Holy Father works in communion with all bishops. The role of the papacy had to be redefined a number of times because temporal rulers wanted to dominate and appoint church ecclesiastics. St. Boniface was reasserting the Church’s role as the one who defines the will of God to her believers, rather than bases of temporal power.
Pope Innocent III completed this primacy of Peter, and it also brought about social stability in feudal times.
So in essence, what you were reading from Pope Boniface was the movement to affirm the church as the definer of God and His will, the ecclesial model of one head, not conciliar, the marks of the church, the legacy and succession of St. Peter.
There is only one Church established by Christ whose founders included the apostles, witnesses to the Lord. This deposit of faith by the apostles has never left us, in contrast to the convictions such as Martin Luther.
So again, the defining of papal authority vs temporal rulers who appointed bishops and popes…this a fall out from the Great Schism, the Church was again redefining and clarifying herself, the process beginning with Pope Boniface and ending with Innocent III…not for their power, but to affirm God’s power over mankind.
The Lord never left us without shepherds, He never left us as orphans, and these papal movements were essentially affirming that.
I am curious…where did you first find these papal writings…what was the source?
These compilations look out of context to their times. Like we are to be robots…
Look at papal infallibility in context to the Catholic Catechism…its whole, not parts. We do not relate to faith experience in parts in isolation, but rather to the whole of religious experience. Same with Sacred Scriptures…we approach it from its whole context in relation to the people of faith in salvation history…all connected to each other.
The Holy Father works in communion with all bishops. The role of the papacy had to be redefined a number of times because temporal rulers wanted to dominate and appoint church ecclesiastics. St. Boniface was reasserting the Church’s role as the one who defines the will of God to her believers, rather than bases of temporal power.
Pope Innocent III completed this primacy of Peter, and it also brought about social stability in feudal times.
So in essence, what you were reading from Pope Boniface was the movement to affirm the church as the definer of God and His will, the ecclesial model of one head, not conciliar, the marks of the church, the legacy and succession of St. Peter.
There is only one Church established by Christ whose founders included the apostles, witnesses to the Lord. This deposit of faith by the apostles has never left us, in contrast to the convictions such as Martin Luther.
So again, the defining of papal authority vs temporal rulers who appointed bishops and popes…this a fall out from the Great Schism, the Church was again redefining and clarifying herself, the process beginning with Pope Boniface and ending with Innocent III…not for their power, but to affirm God’s power over mankind.
The Lord never left us without shepherds, He never left us as orphans, and these papal movements were essentially affirming that.
R
rinnie
Guest
Anna you just took eveything I said and turned it out to be the exact OPPOSITE of what I just said.Aren’t the Orthodox the only Christians outside the Catholic Church, recognized by the CC as having valid orders? Your above statement would exclude all other Christians from our discussion regarding salvation, including me, an Anglican.
So, no Christian out of Communion with the Roman Church, which would include the Orthodox, believe in Christ?
Also, you’re saying Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church? Source please.
I agree that, as Christians, we are connected; but your statements are contradictory.
How can anyone who believes in Jesus Christ be tied to his Church, when you just said you cannot be OUT of communion with the Roman Church which is Christ if you believe in Jesus Christ. ???
It would be really helpful, if you would provide sources for your statements.
Peace,
Anna
Let me put it another way. Show me ONE piece of scripture because the CC is the only Church that has SS and ST. So lets go with SS.
Show me ONE piect of Scripture that did not come from the CC aka Jesus Christ? Just one!
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rinnie
Guest
And Yes Anna if you are asking me if you have to have Apostolic Succession to have Valid Holy Orders according to the word of God the answer would be Yes.
Here is the teaching. Matt 28:19-20
Not only were the Apostles taught to Baptise and make disciples of all nations they were told to TEACH them to OBSERVE all that I have COMMANDED you. UNTIL the end of AGE. That means to date Anna. Where did Christ give authority to CHANGE these teachings? He didn’t.
Go to Timothy 2 Tim 2:2 ST Paul told him you have HEARD from ME through many witnesses ENTRUST TO FAITHFUL PEOPLE who will have the ABILITY to TEACH others as well.
That sums it up.
The Pope can be Traced to ST PETER. ST PAUL etc.
Did St Peter tell the People that they needed to be Baptised to have eternal life? Yes he did! WHEN?
RIght AFTER The Advocate the HS came upon them. But not until Anna, Read the scripture after the death of Christ they all went out and hid.
But what did he tell them they had to do first before getting Baptised. He said REPENT! Thats confession Anna. When we repent we are sorry and ask for forgiveness.
The Gospel says many were Baptised that day. So they had to repent. They HAD to believe ST Peter had this authority to forgive sins and Baptise in the name of Christ.
Here is the teaching. Matt 28:19-20
Not only were the Apostles taught to Baptise and make disciples of all nations they were told to TEACH them to OBSERVE all that I have COMMANDED you. UNTIL the end of AGE. That means to date Anna. Where did Christ give authority to CHANGE these teachings? He didn’t.
Go to Timothy 2 Tim 2:2 ST Paul told him you have HEARD from ME through many witnesses ENTRUST TO FAITHFUL PEOPLE who will have the ABILITY to TEACH others as well.
That sums it up.
The Pope can be Traced to ST PETER. ST PAUL etc.
Did St Peter tell the People that they needed to be Baptised to have eternal life? Yes he did! WHEN?
RIght AFTER The Advocate the HS came upon them. But not until Anna, Read the scripture after the death of Christ they all went out and hid.
But what did he tell them they had to do first before getting Baptised. He said REPENT! Thats confession Anna. When we repent we are sorry and ask for forgiveness.
The Gospel says many were Baptised that day. So they had to repent. They HAD to believe ST Peter had this authority to forgive sins and Baptise in the name of Christ.
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rinnie
Guest
But ask yourself when did this start Anna? When did people who accepted Jesus Christ ever tell the Apostles what to teach?
Jesus himself told the Apostles to go and Teach the good word. If someone in a town REFUSES to ACCEPT this Teaching to shake the dust from you sandles and move on.
Is it not the same today? You either accept the teachings of the Apsotles that can be traced to the RCC or move on.
Christ never said to force his word on anyone. He said if they were one of his they would accept his teachings.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I think when we get into jams and contradictions, and things aren’t clear, we need to pray to the Holy Spirit to guide us.
The Church compiles all of Christ’s, the apostles’, the popes and bishops, and theologians’ teachings in the universal Catholic Catechism. Get the 1985 edition, and all that is infallible is in there. Then you get the perspective of what is meant by papal infallibility…you have to look at the fruit…Vatican II and the universal catechism.
The Church compiles all of Christ’s, the apostles’, the popes and bishops, and theologians’ teachings in the universal Catholic Catechism. Get the 1985 edition, and all that is infallible is in there. Then you get the perspective of what is meant by papal infallibility…you have to look at the fruit…Vatican II and the universal catechism.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
GaryTaylor, a Catholic forum member, posted Unam Sanctam…Bull of Pope Boniface VIII promulgated November 18, 1302. See post #123.
After Gary posted Unam Sanctam, I did an internet search for no salvation outside the Catholic Church and found the other quotes.
So, it was a Catholic post that brought up the issue of no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
Peace,
Anna
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rinnie
Guest
Now Anna with that said, do you see how no other Church grants the forgivenss of sins the way the CC does. In order to have the authority to forgive sins you must somehow be connected to the Apostles to prove Apostolic Succession to be able to Prove authority.
People seem to think that WE believe that the Pope is the only person who has Apostolic Authority and the grace of the Holy Spirit or something.
We only believe that the Pope is the leader of the Sheep simply because Jesus said he did.
But because of the Position that Pope is in, and while we repsect and obey that authority it in no way departs from the Authority of the HS the other Apostles were granted also.
Look at me and Mickey
While Mickey is away for a time being I am sure when he arives back he will admit the truth that we both share. And he will also admit that we have so much of the same truth. There are no MAJOR differences when it comes to our Salvation through the Jesus Christ that we really differ in. Not really.And I am sure if the truth be known Mickey will admit that him and I are united in Christ by a very special bond. His Church which is Christ himself.
But while our Leaders on earth are not in PERFECT COMMUNION with one other, They still believe alot of the RCC teaching. It is disciplines where we differ.
Mick and I go at oneother at times and he can’t see that the Pope is the Vicor of Christ, but I can:shrug:. It is what it is.
But Mick knows confession is necessary, Christ is the living bread from heaven. Baptism, I believe his Church has all of the Sacraments. (sorry for my ignorance on exactly what his Church teaches) but we are on the same path really.
I believe Mick will admit this. But what he probally won’t admit is how much he really likes me, and how I have a place in his heart
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Anna_Scott
Guest
rinnie,
“Now with that said” is your response to Unam Sanctam, posted by a Catholic forum member? I’ve been asking questions about this Bull, but can’t seem to get any answers.
You still haven’t answered the questions I asked you about “Unam Sanctam.”
Peace,. . . .
As for what more you can do; I would simply ask that you answer the following questions, which I have repeatedly asked you. If you believe you have answered them, please cite the post(s) containing the answers:
In Post 175, you agreed the statement in Unam Sanctam: “We declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff,” is an infallible teaching,
Question #1:-----but even though this infallible teaching says, “it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff,” some human creatures, not subject to the Roman Pontiff, will be saved? (I’m talking about your statements regarding an exception) Doesn’t that contract the infallible teaching?
Question #2-----Did Unam Sanctam, which you say is an infallible teaching, define the exceptions of which you speak–to clear up this apparent contradiction?
Question #3-----If Unam Sanctam didn’t define exceptions; at what point in history were these “exceptions” defined?
Please provide sources.
If you don’t want to answer the questions, just say so----and I will respect that and stop asking;but please don’t claim you have already answered them, when you haven’t.
Peace,
Anna
Anna
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Anna you just took eveything I said and turned it out to be the exact OPPOSITE of what I just said.
Let me put it another way. Show me ONE piece of scripture because the CC is the only Church that has SS and ST. So lets go with SS.
Show me ONE piect of Scripture that did not come from the CC aka Jesus Christ? Just one!
rinnie,
All I did was quote you and ask questions about your statements. And I asked for sources. How is that “taking everything you said and turning it out to be the exact OPPOSITE of what you just said”?
Look at your post above. Among other things, you did say, “**you cannot be OUT of communion with the Roman Church which is Christ if you believe in Jesus Christ. He is the CC.” **
**Again, these were my questions.
**
It seems you are attempting to answer something below, but telling me about valid orders doesn’t really deal with your statement: “**you cannot be OUT of communion with the Roman Church which is Christ if you believe in Jesus Christ. He is the CC.” **Aren’t the Orthodox the only Christians outside the Catholic Church, recognized by the CC as having valid orders? Your above statement would exclude all other Christians from our discussion regarding salvation, including me, an Anglican.
So, no Christian out of Communion with the Roman Church, which would include the Orthodox, believe in Christ?
Also, you’re saying Jesus Christ is the Catholic Church? Source please.
I agree that, as Christians, we are connected; but your statements are contradictory.
How can anyone who believes in Jesus Christ be tied to his Church, when you just said you cannot be OUT of communion with the Roman Church which is Christ if you believe in Jesus Christ. ???
It would be really helpful, if you would provide sources for your statements.
Peace,
Anna
Again, how does that clarify your statement: “**you cannot be OUT of communion with the Roman Church which is Christ if you believe in Jesus Christ. He is the CC.” **Anna I told you there is no Salvation outside of the CC which means the same as saving there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ.
What do you mean that if someone is not aware of this then it what somehow CHANGES the meaning?
Anna if Jesus did not come down and die on the cross we could not enter heaven. Rather this good news is shared with all or not has nothing to do with the truth.
That would be like saying that if a person needs H20 every single day and does not know that H20 is water it doesn’t make it so.
People who do not know the good news of Christ can still have the Grace of Christ given to them in other means. There is a big difference from knowing Christ and REJECTING him and not knowing him at all.
I mean even in a court of law if someone does not know the law they are not held bound to it.
And where are your sources??
rinnie, I’m not asking these things to be argumentative. I really want to understand what you are saying, and how your words fit with the teachings of the CC and how those teachings are consistent down through the centuries.
Peace,
Anna
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Anna_Scott
Guest
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mardukm
Guest
I promise to answer your question regarding salvation/invincible ignorance by this coming weekend - IF I am not sidelined with yet another thread on the papacy (a discussion which I simply cannot resist joining - I think God hardwired me that way when I joined the Catholic ChurchMarduk,
At this point, I think we all know there is no list.
So, please just answer my questions about salvation. That is one specific issue.
).Blessings,
Marduk
R
rinnie
Guest
Anna here is what I am saying they are still going to be saved through Jesus Christ. They just are not seeing it.
There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ Anna. You have to go through the Son to get to the Father do you see what I am saying.
For those who do not understand or see it there is an exception for that, the not seeing it HERE in this world.
BUt the exception is not the rule. THe rule is they will meet Jesus Christ on the LAST DAY and see there is no savation outside of him. Does that answer your question?
- Status