What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[Mickey]

Mickey what are you talking about.

You are the one who seemed to imply that free will does not matter because of God’s foreknowledge.

 

[adrift]

The Word of God the Father became Flesh, not by a change or alteration of his own nature … but because having made the flesh taken from the body of the Virgin his own, one and the same subject is called Son, before the Incarnation as Word still incorporeal, and after the Incarnation as the same Word now embodied. That is why we say that the same subject is simultaneously both God and Man, not dividing him conceptually into a human being with a separate identity and God the Word also with a separate identity, that we may exclude any idea of two Sons, but acknowledging that one and the same subject is Christ and Son and Lord.
St Cyril of Alexandria

How does this support that Mary had sin?

 

[rinnie]

She is set aside because of her “yes” to the angel Gabriel. She is the all-holy Mother of God. Yet she was as human as any other woman.
No.
Are you saying that free will is meaningless? Are you promoting Calvinism?
She most certainly was sinless. But she was not spared from os at conception.
What is the meaning of “neter” and “dweel?”
You may never understand. Christ took His humanity from the Virgin Mary. Falleness is part of our humanity. Yet he was also completey Divine. This is a great mystery. It is called the hypostatic union. St Mary’s human nature was not modified.

Then you must explain to me how if Mary’s human nature was not modified by her being saved by sin, how the DIVINE WISDOM who is OUR GOD could enter into her body and soul because according to the book of wisdom it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Please explain this to me. Because it is indirect conflict with scripture.

 

[Mickey]

This is a false statement.
The truth is
Because God knew that Mary would say yes and preserved her from sin, did not remove her free will. God knew that of her own free will she would say yes

Of course he did. But that does not remove her free will…and it does not mean that she was immaculately conceived.

 

[rinnie]

You are the one who seemed to imply that free will does not matter because of God’s foreknowledge.

Where

I said that God knew what she would say and do before she did it because he was God. How do you get that out of God taking away our free will?

 

[Mickey]

Then you must explain to me how if Mary’s human nature was not modified

Oh my! Now you are saying that St Mary’s human nature was modified!

how the DIVINE WISDOM who is OUR GOD could enter into her body and soul because according to the book of wisdom it is IMPOSSIBLE.

She was sinless and pure and holy her entire life…by her cooperation with God’s grace. But she was not immaculately conceived. Hundreds of posts…and still no one can show that the IC was ever taught in the ancient Church…or patristically…or Scripturally. It is a mere theologoumena.

 

[adrift]

Eve came into being via direct creation from God, whilst St Mary was born of a woman in a fallen world.** It is not natural nor logical to impute an immaculatey conceived state upon the Holy Virgin. This notion sets her apart from mankind according to nature. It removes her humanity.**
He did by grace and her free will…not at conception. It is not a teaching of the ancient Church and it is not patristically supported.

Define ancient Chruch.

You use the word logical but I showed you statement in logic.
You are not using logic.

Natural? You got to be kidding. It is not natural to have a virgin birth. Now your statement says
If Mary was conceived without Original Sin then her humanity would be removed.
That naturally leads to the statement
If Jesus was conceived withou Original Sin then His humanity would be removed.

That is logic. Using logic your premise fails. You can’t fall back on but Jesus was Divine because He is also human and you are defining what it means to be human in your statement.

 

[Mickey]

I said that God knew what she would say and do before she did it because he was God.

My apologies. I thought you were implying double predestination. But God knowing that St Mary would say “yes”…does nothing to support the IC.

 

[adrift]

Oh my! Now you are saying that St Mary’s human nature was modified!
She was sinless and pure and holy her entire life…by her cooperation with God’s grace. But she was not immaculately conceived. Hundreds of posts…and still no one can show that the IC was ever taught in the ancient Church…or patristically…or Scripturally. It is a mere theologoumena.

The Church regards Mary without sin of any kind. This is what all the quotes I can find from Justin Martyr,Tatian the Syrian, and others say. However, it would be very enlightening if you could produce one from the Ancient Chruch that said she was with sin. Or is your proof light?

 

[MartinJordan]

Your right that wasn’t in reference to the first part of the IC but the second part.

Yet when we speak about Mary conceived without sin? Its not a new concept either.

Here its already being written about…

Saint Ephrem the Syrian (d. 373), a doctor of the Church, composed this beautiful hymn:

You alone and your Mother

  are more beautiful than any others;

For there is no blemish in you,

  nor any stains upon your Mother.

Who of my children

  can compare in beauty to these?

Augustine…

On the issue of Mary’s sinlessness and fullness of grace, Saint Augustine (d. 430) wrote:

With the exception of the holy Virgin Mary, in whose case, out of respect for the Lord, I do not wish there to be any further question as far as sin is concerned, since how can we know what great abundance of grace was conferred on her to conquer sin in every way, seeing that she merited to conceive and bear him who certainly had no sin at all?

Many other early Christians bore witness to Mary’s freedom from sin, a freedom that allowed her to embrace wholeheartedly the Father’s unique mission for her with complete openness. For example, Saint Gregory of Nazianzen (d. 390), Saint Gregory of Nyssa (d. 395), Saint Sophronius (d. 638), and Saint John Damascene (d. c. 749) among others taught that Mary was preserved from all stain of sin.

Saint Severus (d. 538), Bishop of Antioch in the sixth century, reflected on Mary in light of Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture: “She [Mary] … formed part of the human race, and was of the same essence as we, although she was pure from all taint and immaculate.

Saint Ambrose (d. 379), another early Church Father, referred to Mary as “free of every stain of sin.”

Saint Andrew of Crete (d. 740) explained that the Redeemer chose “in all nature this pure and entirely Immaculate Virgin.”

Thus, from the early centuries of the Church, Mary was seen as unique in her sinlessness.

Maybe you can add this too:

Ambrose of Milan

“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?” (ibid., 2:2:7).

“Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin” (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).

MJ

 

[rinnie]

Oh my! Now you are saying that St Mary’s human nature was modified!
She was sinless and pure and holy her entire life…by her cooperation with God’s grace. But she was not immaculately conceived. Hundreds of posts…and still no one can show that the IC was ever taught in the ancient Church…or patristically…or Scripturally. It is a mere theologoumena.

Mickey where in the world did ANYONE say she was IMMACULATELY CONCEIVED? WE NEVER said that.

We said that she was SAVED from SIN at the MOMENT of her CONCEPTION. what does the moment of her CONCEPTION have to do with her ACTUAL conception?

What are you talking about?

 

[Mickey]

Define ancient Chruch.

Early Church.

You are not using logic.

Logic. Hmmmm. You must be a student of scholasticism. Is the trinity logical in human terms…how about the hypostatic union? Is it logical that God would remove a part of St Mary’s humanity in the womb? Is it more logical that God left her humanity intact and allowed his Son to be born completely human without the propensity to sin?

It is not natural to have a virgin birth.

But is it logical?

If Jesus was conceived withou Original Sin then His humanity would be removed.

But he was completely divine. It was the hypostatic union.

Using logic your premise fails.

Your premise fails on all fronts…logic, lack of Scriptural support, lack of patristic support…etc

You can’t fall back on but Jesus was Divine because He is also human and you are defining what it means to be human in your statement.

Fall back? Are you kidding? He was completely human and completely divine. Lacking in neither.

St Mary was not given a modified or altered nature…this sets apart her humanity from the rest of us fallen humans, and has grave Christological and Soteriological implications, for it means that the humanity that Christ took from Our Lady was not in fact the one and same humanity as the rest of us.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey where in the world did ANYONE say she was IMMACULATELY CONCEIVED? WE NEVER said that.

We said that she was SAVED from SIN at the MOMENT of her CONCEPTION. what does the moment of her CONCEPTION have to do with her ACTUAL conception?

What are you talking about?

What on earth are you talking about. Do you have any idea what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in the Roman Catholic Church means. This is quite bizarre rinnie.

 

[rinnie]

My apologies. I thought you were implying double predestination. But God knowing that St Mary would say “yes”…does nothing to support the IC.

Why not? Where does it take away from the IC? Mickey do you really know what the Immaculate Conception is?

If you do why do you keep saying she was not immaculately conceived? We never said her Mother or Father were without Original Sin.

The Immaculate Conception is God saving HER from Original Sin becasue of the fallen state of her Mom and Dad.

It is about HER being saved from O.S not her parents.

 

[rinnie]

What on earth are you talking about. Do you have any idea what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception in the Roman Catholic Church means. This is quite bizarre rinnie.

Yes Mickey I do. The Immaculate Conception is at the time of the conception of the Blessed Mother God stepped in and saved her from Original Sin.

 

[Mickey]

Ambrose of Milan

“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

Amen. This is why we call her the great example. Not the great exception.

“Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin” (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).

Amen again. This shows that she cooperated with God’s grace to remain sinless throughout her life. She was the greatest ascetic!!!

 

[Mickey]

Yes Mickey I do. The Immaculate Conception is at the time of the conception of the Blessed Mother God stepped in and saved her from Original Sin.

Right. And this has nor Scriptural or patristic support.

 

[rinnie]

Amen. This is why we call her the great example. Not the great exception.

Amen again. This shows that she cooperated with God’s grace to remain sinless throughout her life. She was the greatest ascetic!!!

WOW. You just said she cooperated with God’s grace to remain sinless throughout her life. How could she REMAIN sinless is she ever had sin

 

[Mickey]

Mickey do you really know what the Immaculate Conception is?

Yes.

If you do why do you keep saying she was not immaculately conceived?

But I do not believe that she was freed from the os at conception----immaculately conceived. I am talking about the doctrine…not the act of her parents pro-creating.

 

[rinnie]

Right. And this has nor Scriptural or patristic support.

Then how in the world can you just support what you just wrote. How can you say that she was sinless agree with it, and then turn around and say we have no scriptural support.

We do Mickey.

Hail Mary full of Grace. What does that mean Mickey, It means if you are FULL of Grace you have no Sin.

What does you have found FAVOR with God nean?