What official infallible declaration of any Pope on morals would you as a non-Catholic Christian object to and why?

[PJM]

Kathleen,

I appreciate all that you wrote; but most of my questions remain unanswered:

Question #1: Is Unam Sanctam, which declares, proclaims, and defines that “it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff,” an infallible teaching?

The answer to the last part is YES but only because it states what the Church has taught nearly forever; It is a Defined Dogma of the RCH and it is this that make it infallible. BUT it is the Church, NOT the Pontiff [Infallibility MUST be specifically declared] that makes this teaching binding on everyone.

Question #2: If Unam Sanctam is infallible, did Pope Boniface VIII infallibly define any of the exceptions that are taught today in the CC?

Good Question: But not really relevant. While ALL Defined Dogma are unchangeable this means that the BASIC Truth can never change. It DOES NOT mean that the understanding cannot get better and aligned with current needs. Today’s Teaching HOLDS to the Basis Truth while ADDING the POSSIBILITY of other Christians who too have the sacrament of Baptism AND Belief in the Blessed Trinity; and WHO HAVE NEVER been exposed to the truths of the CC; MIGHT, through this sacramental unity and common belief under Precise conditions, also be included THROUGH the CC, in the POSSIBILITY of Salvation.

Question #3: If Pope Boniface VIII did not define exceptions; at what point in history were “exceptions” infallibly defined?

Partial reply:
Since, Pope Eugene IV seems to be saying the same thing, only more sternly; I think it is fair to ask the same questions about the Bull Cantate Domino of 1441.

Pope Eugene IV:
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her;

***Friend, I’m unsure you if you have a right understating of the POWER of the Church to NOT CHANGE; BUT EXPAND understanding as it becomes both Inspired by the HS and made necessary by a changing world? There was and IS NO NEED for “today’s exceptions” because they frankly were not a factor of possible consideration when either of these documents were propagated. ***

Question #5: If it is infallible, did Pope Eugene IV infallibly define any of the exceptions that are taught today in the CC? I can’t imagine that he did. Who is left after “pagans, Jews, heretics, and schismatics” are professed to be headed into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with the CC.

Question #6: If Pope Eugene IV did not define exceptions; at what point in history were “exceptions” infallibly defined?

SAME as Q #1

Through these 6 questions, I’m basically asking the same thing Catholic forum members CHESTERTONRULES and ron77nyc asked–I quoted them in post #329.

How did the Catholic Church go from “No salvation outside the Catholic Church” to the exceptions given in the Catechism and other places? No one has answered this; and I’ve given up hope that anyone will.

These ARE NOT EXCEPTIONS! They are the result of Historical World-wide changes that NEEDED to be addressed. The Base Teaching of. the CC DID NOT AND CANNOT be changed. NOTICE PLEASE these two passages: Mt. 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, [DONE DEAL] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." These terms MEAN unlimited power of Governance by Gods chose Popes. And in Jn. 20: 21-22 which is the Institution of THEE CC “Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.” This is an actual transfer of POWER From Christ to His Church: WITH THE SAME POWERS AND AUTHORITY THAT JESUS HAD ON EARTH.

Anyone seeking more information on The KEYS to heaven, please PM me

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Mickey]

Mickey my dear friend I gotto go mow some grass. Don’t miss me too much

I have so much grass to mow…I was thinking of buying a few goats.

 

[JonNC]

I have so much grass to mow…I was thinking of buying a few goats.

Mickey,
I was told by someone that we Lutherans are the goats. How much you paying?

Jon

 

[Mickey]

Mickey,
I was told by someone that we Lutherans are the goats. How much you paying?

Jon

You’re killin’ me Jon!

 

[rinnie]

“I say that the Virgin Mary could not be sanctified before Her conception, inasmuch as She did not exist. If, all the more, She could not be sanctified in the moment of Her conception by reason of the sin which is inseparable from conception, then it remains to believe that She was sanctified after She was conceived in the womb of her mother. This sanctification, if it annihilates sin, makes holy Her birth, but not Her conception. No one is given the right to be conceived in sanctity; only the Lord Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and He alone is holy from His very conception. Excluding Him, it is to all the descendants of Adam that must be referred that which one of them says of himself, both out of a feeling of humility and in acknowledgement of the truth: Behold I was conceived in iniquities (Ps. 50:7). How can one demand that this conception be holy, when it was not the work of the Holy Spirit, not to mention that it came from concupiscence? The Holy Virgin, of course, rejects that glory which, evidently, glorifies sin. She cannot in any way justify a novelty invented in spite of the teaching of the Church, a novelty which is the mother of imprudence, the sister of unbelief, and the daughter of light-mindedness.”
Bernard of Clairvaux

It has to be a 100 out here today.:tanning: Goats did I here Goats I am in. I don’t care what Religon they are

Quick note, sorry Mickey my Bad missed the second sentence.

I quite disagree. Here is my question how can he say that it is impossible for God to come at the second of the Blessed Mothers conception and give to her the grace that was needed to her before the stain of Original sin could touch her.

I do not agree with this, nor am I held bound to it. Nor has it ever been taught in the history of the RCC.

God has the power to over power sin any kind of sin anytime he chooses. To say this is impossible for God to do is impossible for me to believe

The question is can the Lord save Mary at the moment of her conception before the stain of Original sin could hit her. Heck yeah he can. He can do anything he wants.

Here is what I am hearing, I am hearing that he is saying it is not possible for God to do this. Nothing is impossible for GOd. He can save the Blessed Mother from the stain of Original sin.

As I said before it is like pulling someone out from getting hit by a car. Can you save them by getting between them and the car and pulling them away. Yes you can.

To say God could not save the Blessed Mother from sin at the momemt of her conception with his singular grace is unreal.

Now my question where does he have the authority to trump the teachings of the RCC? I am just asking here.

For now I am heading out to find me some Goats. HUNGRY ONES.

 

[Mickey]

It I do not agree with this, nor am I held bound to it. Nor has it ever been taught in the history of the RCC.

He is a doctor of your Church.

Here is another:

"Certainly Mary was conceived with original sin, as is natural. . . . If she
would not have been born with original sin, she would not have needed to be
redeemed by Christ, and, this being so, Christ would not be the universal
Redeemer of men, which would abolish the dignity of Christ."
Chapter CCXXXII bis. Thomas Aquinas, Compendio do Teologia

Here is what I am hearing, I am hearing that he is saying it is not possible for God to do this. Nothing is impossible for GOd. He can save the Blessed Mother from the stain of Original sin.

God can also allow the Virgin Mary to be born with original sin like the rest of humanity so that His Son can redeem our human nature in all its falleness and still give Our Lady the grace to not sin during her entire lifetime.

To say God could not save the Blessed Mother from sin at the momemt of her conception with his singular grace is unreal.

God can do anything. But He allows us to retain our free will.

Now my question where does he have the authority to trump the teachings of the RCC?

The IC was not taught in the early Church or early Church councils or the early Church fathers. The question that should be asked is: Why did the Roman Catholic Church elevate this theologoumena to the level of doctrine. Very strange.

 

[kylemccloughan]

The IC is rejected by many ECF’s including Aquinas, Bernard, Innocent III, Lombard. I can quote all of them if anybody wishes.

 

[adrift]

dignity of Christ."

Chapter CCXXXII bis. Thomas Aquinas, Compendio do Teologia
.

Maybe this has been overlooked so here it is again.

The assertion that Aquinas denied the Immaculate Conception is inaccurate, misleading, and superficial…The following would be far more accurate and less misleading: If the Blessed Virgin had not contracted original sin, then (so thought Aquinas) this would detract from the dignity of Christ, who is the Redeemer of all men, including the Virgin. Aquinas never denied the Immaculate Conception as defined by the Church. He simply did not see how the universality of Christ’s salvation would have been preserved in the case of the Virgin. The so called “immaculate conception” that Aquinas could not accept is an unredeemed immaculate conception,** an opinion that all Catholics, not just Aquinas, have to reject,** especially after the true meaning of the Immaculate Conception has been infallibly defined by the Church…Aquinas (and for that matter Anselm, Bonaventure, Albertus Magnus, Bernard of Clairvaux, Alexander of Hales (and several other theological heavyweights of the Middle Ages) did not so much deny the Immaculate Conception as simply assert the universality of Christ’s Redemption, a clear and undisputed dogma of Christianity which they could not intellectually reconcile with a human being conceived free from original sin.

These are from the middle ages not the Early Church so we are still lacking evidence that it was rejected by the early Church. But there is evidence that it was not an innovation by the fact that it is mentioned.

 

[rinnie]

He is a doctor of your Church.

Here is another:

"Certainly Mary was conceived with original sin, as is natural. . . . If she
would not have been born with original sin, she would not have needed to be
redeemed by Christ, and, this being so, Christ would not be the universal
Redeemer of men, which would abolish the dignity of Christ."
Chapter CCXXXII bis. Thomas Aquinas, Compendio do Teologia
God can also allow the Virgin Mary to be born with original sin like the rest of humanity so that His Son can redeem our human nature in all its falleness and still give Our Lady the grace to not sin during her entire lifetime.
God can do anything. But He allows us to retain our free will.
The IC was not taught in the early Church or early Church councils or the early Church fathers. The question that should be asked is: Why did the Roman Catholic Church elevate this theologoumena to the level of doctrine. Very strange.

I am going to have to call you on that one Mickey. Neither greek nor Latin taught the Immaculate Conception but PROFESSED IT.

Pope Pius IX wrote we declare the I. C…is a doctrine REVEALED by GOD and therefore to be believed firrmly and constantly by all the faithful. How do you get out of that Mickey.

The bible said when the Pope or his Bishops in union speak in the name of God, and Christ gave them that right, it is in the voice of Christ they speak.

Now how can you deny that truth when it came straight from Christ?

 

[kylemccloughan]

These are from the middle ages not the Early Church so we are still lacking evidence that it was rejected by the early Church. But there is evidence that it was not an innovation by the fact that it is mentioned.

That’s just simply not true. I can produce many quotes from the community of the faithful that all oppose the IC.

 

[kylemccloughan]

The bible said when the Pope or his Bishops in union speak in the name of God, and Christ gave them that right, it is in the voice of Christ they speak.

Where does the Bible say this? I’d like to see it.

 

[adrift]

That’s just simply not true. I can produce many quotes from the community of the faithful that all oppose the IC.

That is what I have been asking for.

 

[rinnie]

Where does the Bible say this? I’d like to see it.

Sure go to Acts 15:28 Luke 10:16

 

[rinnie]

That is what I have been asking for.

I would like to see this also. Especially when the word of God that says we are to stay true to the teachings of the Early Fathers of the Church.

It was always professed by the Church.

How can they deny a doctrine revealed by God that is to be believed firmly and constantly by the faithful?

 

[Cavaradossi]

How can they deny a doctrine revealed by God that is to be believed firmly and constantly by the faithful?

Because the Orthodox do not believe that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Therefore, in trying to convince the Orthodox that the IC is not an error, you must quote scholars from the Orthodox tradition (many of whom we share) in support of the IC, not tell us that it is so because God has revealed it to you.

 

[kylemccloughan]

Sure go to Acts 15:28 Luke 10:16

These don’t support your claim at all.

 

[kylemccloughan]

I would like to see this also. Especially when the word of God that says we are to stay true to the teachings of the Early Fathers of the Church.

It was always professed by the Church.

See all quotes below.

here are some quotes from the long centuries of the community of the faithful whcih are completely anterior to the IC:

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA: The Word Jesus Christ ALONE was born without sin.

ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO: Christ alone being made man but remaining God never had any sin nor did he take on flesh of sin though he took flesh OF THE SIN OF HIS MOTHER.

AMBROSE: Of all that are born of women, the Holy Lord Jesus was the only one who experienced NOT the contagion of earthly corruption.

ST. BERNARD: For this reason our astonishment is not small in seeing that some of you are believed to be able to introduce a NEW feast that is UNKNOWN to the rite of the Church that CANNOT be approved by reason, that it is CONDEMNED by the ancient traditions, the Feast of The Immaculate Conception.

AND, here’s ST. THOMAS AQUINAS: What honor should we believe in attributing to Mary that honor may be had for her conception which was anterior to her birth? Because without this conception neither her birth should be honored. Then would you say with others, according to your own reasoning were you to maintain that it is necessary to hold feasts in honor of her parents, this is logical. Then it would be necessary to honor her grandparents and her great grandparents and there would be no end at all. There would be feasts without number on the earth and it would be converted into a paradise.

PETER LOMARD: But this is asked on what account and whence is it that Mary was conceived without original sin?? We say that this was IMPOSSIBLE.

MELCHOIR CANNAS: The dogma that holds the blessed Virgin was free from the original sin was NOWHERE delivered in Holy Scripture.

ST. ANTONINUS: If the Scriptures are duly considered and the sayings of the doctors ancient and modern who have been devoted to the glorius Virgin… She WAS conceived IN sin.

POPE LEO I: The Lord Jesus Christ ALONE among the sons of men was born without sin.

POPE GALLATUS: It belongs to the IMMACULATE LAMB to have NO SIN.

POPE GREGORY I: Christ ALONE was truly born holy.

POPE INNOCENT III: Eve was produced without sin but she brought forth IN SIN. Mary was brought forth IN SIN but she brought forth WITHOUT SIN.

 

[adrift]

See all quotes below.

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA: The Word Jesus Christ ALONE was born without sin.

What was asked was to produce from the early Church opposition to Mary being Immaculatly conceived. There are problems with your quotes but I am going to deal with that latter.
Most of the men that you quote were not early Church. I did a google search of what would be considered early Church and it came back as 33-325.
I wouldn’t consider early to be middle ages and that is where a lot of them come from.
What is left?
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA:

Not a whole lot of evidence. I tried to find the quote because I want to see it in context. I had no luck. Can you tell me what it is quoted from?
Also it seems his writings were suspect

Pope Gelasius in the catalogue attributed to him mentions Clement’s works, but adds, “they are in no case to be received amongst us”. Photius in the “Bibliotheca” censures a list of errors drawn from his writings, but shows a kindly feeling towards Clement, assuming that the original text had been tampered with. Clement has in fact been dwarfed in history by the towering grandeur of the great Origen, who succeeded him at Alexandria. Down to the seventeenth century he was venerated as a saint. His name was to be found in the martyrologies, and his feast fell on the fourth of December. But when the Roman Martyrology was revised by Pope Clement VIII his name was dropped from the calendar on the advice of Cardinal Baronius. Benedict XIV maintained this decision of his predecessor on the grounds that Clement’s life was little known that he had never obtained public cultus in the Church, and that some of his doctrines were, if not erroneous, at least suspect.

I had some indication that the quote was from Discourse to the Greeks but I looked at an online copy and could not find the quote.

 

[adrift]

Augustine “We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

Ambrose “Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

Bernard “It behoved the Queen of Virgins, by a singular privilege of sanctity, to lead a life free from every sin, so that, while she brought forth the slayer of sin and death, she should obtain for all the gift of life and justice.”

Thomas Aquinas “And with respect to these two the Blessed Virgin had most perfect grace. For more than any other holy person save Christ alone she avoided all sin. For sin is either original, and of this she was cleansed in the womb[1]; or mortal or venial, and of these she was free. Hence the Canticle of Canticles 4:7: ‘Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee.’”
Origen This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Ephraim the Syrian You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

Gregory Nazianzen He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).

Augustine We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Theodotus of Ancrya A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns (Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]).

Proclus of Constantinople As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).

Jacob of Sarug [T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary[ante A.D. 521].

 

[adrift]

Romanos the Melodist Then the tribes of Israel heard that Anna had conceived the immaculate one. So everyone took part in the rejoicing. Joachim gave a banquet, and great was the merriment in the garden. He invited the priests and Levites to prayer; then he called Mary into the center of the crowd, that she might be magnified (On the Birth of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560]).
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).
St. Athanasius

He (Christ) took it (His body) from a pure and unstained Virgin, who had not known man. (On the Incarnation of the Word, 8; Gambero, 102)

O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides. (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71, 216; Gambero, 106)
St. Ephraem

Mary and Eve, two people without guilt, two simple people, were identical. Later, however, one became the cause of our death, the other the cause of our life (Op. syr. II, 327; Ott, 201)
St. Cyril of Jerusalem

Pure and spotless is this birth. For where the Holy Spirit breathes, all pollution is taken away, so that the human birth of the Only-begotten from the Virgin is undefiled. (Catechetical Lectures, XII, 31-32; Gambero, 140)
t. Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the Virgin, who had first been purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor. (Sermon 38, 13; Gambero, 162-163)

St. Gregory of Nyssa

It was, to divulge by the manner of His Incarnation this great secret; that purity is the only complete indication of the presence of God and of His coming, and that no one can in reality secure this for himself, unless he has altogether estranged himself from the passions of the flesh. What happened in the stainless Mary when the fulness of the Godhead which was in Christ shone out through her, that happens in every soul that leads by rule the virgin life. (On Virginity, 2; NPNF 2, Vol. V, 344)
St. Jerome

‘There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a flower shall grow out of his roots.’ The rod is the mother of the Lord–simple, pure, unsullied; drawing no germ of life from without but fruitful in singleness like God Himself… Set before you the blessed Mary, whose surpassing purity made her meet to be the mother of the Lord. (Letter XXII. To Eustochium, 19, 38; NPNF 2, Vol. VI, 29, 39; cf. Gambero, p. 213: “whose purity was so great that she merited to be the Mother of the Lord”)