What one author says about the Muslim "religion"

[Contarini]

only one problem: they see everyone other than Muslims as NOT men of God…

they see skyscrapers and think Decadence and Satan

Who are “they”? The twenty or so Muslims who brought down the Twin Towers? Or the 200 or so Muslims who were killed in that atrocity because they worked in the Twin Towers? (I know of course that more than those twenty embraced radicalism–but obviously more than those 200 did not.)

Edwin

 

[distracted]

.

Excellent book that details life in an Islamic country (how much they, as a country, hate America):

Not Without My Daughter

should be required reading in high school… (well, at least the first half anyhow… haven’t finished it… )

 

[Contarini]

I read a very intersting book called America Alone…

Here is one thing he wrote (Mark Steyn)… p.62

"… it’s not merely that there’s a global jihad lurking within this religion [Islam], but that the religion itself is a plitical project - and, in fact, an imperial project - in a way that modern Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Budhhism are not

Any Christianity that is not a “political project” is a severely defective form of Christianity.

Admittedly, it’s a very different kind of political project. But the irony is that you embrace the very attitude you condemn in Muslims. In a later post you predict that Christians and Muslims will have to “duke it out” and that you are confident you will win because Jesus is on your side.

As a matter of fact having Jesus on our side means that we are likely to wind up being tortured, beaten, and killed.

That’s the key difference between Christianity and Islam. You want to denounce Islamic “violence” while making the same kind of claim about God vindicating the righteous which lies at the core of most Islamic violence.

Edwin

 

[Hadi]

.

Excellent book that details life in an Islamic country (how much they, as a country, hate America):

Not Without My Daughter

should be required reading in high school… (well, at least the first half anyhow… haven’t finished it… )

know that there are Muslim students in US schools,…

 

[sedonaman]

What do these posts have to do with “what one author says about the Muslim ‘religion’”?

It seems to me that most of the threads about Islam quickly switch to arguments about Christianity. If you want to discuss Christianity, start a thread about it.

 

[sedonaman]

That does not fit what I know about Islam. Do you have any evidence to support this sweeping claim?
Edwin

I don’t know what you know about Islam, but the best way to answer your question comes from Warner:

Let’s examine the ethical basis of our civilization. All of our politics and ethics are based upon a unitary ethic that is best formulated in the Golden Rule:
Treat others as you would be treated.
The basis of this rule is the recognition that at one level, we are all the same. We are not all equal. [Meaning that ] … we do not have equal abilities. But everyone wants to be treated as a human being. In particular, we all want to be equal under the law and be treated as social equals. On the basis of the Golden Rule – the equality of human beings – we have created democracy, ended slavery, and treat women and men as political equals. So the Golden Rule is a unitary ethic. All people are to be treated the same. All religions have some version of the Golden Rule except Islam.

So how is Islam different in this context?

The term “human being” has no meaning inside of Islam. There is no such thing as humanity, only the duality of the believer and unbeliever. Look at the ethical statements found in the Hadith. A Muslim should not lie, cheat, kill, or steal from other Muslims. But a Muslim may lie, deceive, or kill an unbeliever if it advances Islam.

There is no such thing as a universal statement of ethics in Islam. Muslims are to be treated one way and unbelievers another way. The closest Islam comes to a universal statement of ethics is that the entire world must submit to Islam. After Mohammed became a prophet, he never treated an unbeliever the same as a Muslim. Islam denies the truth of the Golden Rule.

I know that Muslims will point to a verse that says to the effect, “Wish for your brother what you wish for yourself.” But upon closer inspection with our handy, dandy Dictionary of Islamic-to-English Terms, we find that “brother” means “brother Muslim”. Likewise, “neighbor” in Islam does not mean “fellow human being” [since human being has no meaning]; it means “the Muslim living closest to you.” Note that Warner states, “A Muslim should not lie, cheat, kill, or steal from other Muslims.” … the key word being “should” [not “must”], for a Muslims can if it advances Islam.

So the only “larger context of morality” is that if it advances Islam, it is good; if not, it is bad [or neutral at best], which is not a larger context of morality at all.

What do you know about Islam that illustrates a “larger context of morality” against which Koranic advocations to violence are judged? And please spare me the “There’s-violence-in-the-Bible-too” excuse.

 

[Christos]

Read urself here presented along in this whole thread. Do I have to be at ur service?
What context? Ur muslim brothers have given the necessary evidence and proof. I live in Indonesia, we have witnessed so many violence as in bombs done by those muslims. And eventhough muslims with their lips denying or refusing the terror, they will still feel happy when something bad happen to the west or to other people with different religion.
And u know what? T shirts with the picture of Osama B Ldn are solds here, cheerished as hero???!

Just because a person does something does not mean it is allowed in that religion. If so, i can easily say in Christianity, sodomy, rape, incest, murder, theft, and many other things are allowed. I know of alot of Christian people who have commited these acts in Ameria, Canada, UK, and in many other places of the world. Also, there are people who are cheerful when they hear of these things. However, in both cases, the terror caused by the misguided Muslims, and the atrocities commited by the misguided Christians, are both widely condemned on both sides. Btw, shirts with the KKK and with Bush, are sold in America and other places. To the majority of the Muslim world, Bush is equalled to Osama bin Ladin.

There is no larger context of morality against which Koranic advocations to violence are judged. The only thing that matters is how such acts impact or benefit Islam. If it advances Islam, it is good; if not, it is bad [or neutral at best].

Basically, your saying you want me to go look for it my self and that you have no proof. You are trying to proove a point so please give proof with it when you do. Like before, i have been asked many times the same question as to what i have already answered so i would refer them to certain posts, consisting of these comments or verses. Please, so can you point me to them, or repost them. Unless, there isn’t?

 

[sedonaman]

…
Basically, your saying you want me to go look for it my self and that you have no proof. …

Basically, you are wrong. I never told you to go look it up for yourself. My answer in post #233 was to Contarini. Didn’t you read it ?

And I did not post the first comment you quoted.

 

[dzheremi]

Just because a person does something does not mean it is allowed in that religion. If so, i can easily say in Christianity, sodomy, rape, incest, murder, theft, and many other things are allowed. I know of alot of Christian people who have commited these acts in Ameria, Canada, UK, and in many other places of the world.

This is true. The difference, however, is that the acts of terrorism that are committed by Muslims in the name of Islam against the “infidels” are explicitly justified by direct quotation of the Qur’an and hadith. Don’t for a second think that OBL and his ilk don’t know their Qur’an. It would be a different situation, of course, if Muslims did not allow perversions of their book by terrorists. But from what I’ve seen, most of Muslim ire is reserved for the West and Israel, while the sheikhs and mullahs who rant on and on about the death of America and the imminent ascendency of Islam over the entire world and the subjugation of non-Muslims are not only allowed to continue their blather, but are actually protected and encouraged by Muslims. Why? Because the things that they say are supported in the Qur’an and the Hadith!

Qur’an 61:9 “He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse.”

Qur’an 48:28 “He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.”

The calls for explicit violence against unbelievers are too numerous to be mentioned here.

Also, there are people who are cheerful when they hear of these things.

Oh really? There are Christians who are cheerful when they hear of rape, murder, incest and those other things you mentioned? This really is news to me, and I was raised in an actively Christian household (not merely “culturally Christian” as many people in the West are), and have been Christian all my life. I have never heard of this.

However, in both cases, the terror caused by the misguided Muslims, and the atrocities commited by the misguided Christians, are both widely condemned on both sides.

I have heard the condemnation of evil behavior in the name of God on the side of the Christians in many well-publicized statements, and I have heard similar statements by a much smaller number of leaders in the Muslim world. Unfortunately, many of these brave Muslims who speak out against terrorism end up the victims of it, as was the case of Dr. Safrez Naeemi. May God reward them for the good they tried to do amidst a culture of violence and ignorance.

 

[Christos]

I don’t know what you know about Islam, but the best way to answer your question comes from Warner:

The term “human being” has no meaning inside of Islam. There is no such thing as humanity, only the duality of the believer and unbeliever. Look at the ethical statements found in the Hadith. A Muslim should not lie, cheat, kill, or steal from other Muslims. But a Muslim may lie, deceive, or kill an unbeliever if it advances Islam.

Actually, there is the word human being or humanity. It is refererd to as Naas. Like in the Quran it says “Qul autho birabin Naas” meaning “Say, I seek protection in the Lord/Cherisher/Sustainer of Mankind”

If he can be so ignorant to completely over look this fact that there is a meaning for human being in Islam, then how could you believe his other points. We are not allowed to lie, decieve, or kill anyoneif it advances Islam.

Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land!. Quran 5:32

If you look at the word in the quran, it says Naas, meaning all of mankind not just believers. When God was refering to all of mankind in delivering a message he would say “Y iyuhan Naas” or “O Mankind”, but when he was speaking to only the Muslims, he would say, “Ya iyuhal lathina imanoo” “O you who believe,”.

Thus the rest of the points of this person can easily be refuted.

 

[Christos]

Basically, you are wrong. I never told you to go look it up for yourself. My answer in post #233 was to Contarini. Didn’t you read it ?

And I did not post the first comment you quoted.

I Apologize, i just wanted to answer both in one, and i forgot to change the info in the quote bar.

 

[Christos]

This is true. The difference, however, is that the acts of terrorism that are committed by Muslims in the name of Islam against the “infidels” are explicitly justified by direct quotation of the Qur’an and hadith. Don’t for a second think that OBL and his ilk don’t know their Qur’an. It would be a different situation, of course, if Muslims did not allow perversions of their book by terrorists. But from what I’ve seen, most of Muslim ire is reserved for the West and Israel, while the sheikhs and mullahs who rant on and on about the death of America and the imminent ascendency of Islam over the entire world and the subjugation of non-Muslims are not only allowed to continue their blather, but are actually protected and encouraged by Muslims. Why? Because the things that they say are supported in the Qur’an and the Hadith!

Qur’an 61:9 “He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, that He may make it overcome the religions, all of them, though the polytheists may be averse.”

Qur’an 48:28 “He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.”

The calls for explicit violence against unbelievers are too numerous to be mentioned here.

Please, where does it say that kill the polytheist so the religion may prevail. It says that the Religion whether the polytheist like it or not.

pre⋅vail  /prɪˈveɪl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pri-veyl]
–verb (used without object)

1. to be widespread or current; exist everywhere or generally:
2. to appear or occur as the more important or frequent feature or element; predominate:
3. to be or prove superior in strength, power, or influence (usually fol. by over):
4. to succeed; become dominant; win out: to wish that the right side might prevail.
5. to use persuasion or inducement successfully:
   Dictionary.com

Does the word prevail have anything to do with violence tell me. Then you tell me i twist my words around.

Oh really? There are Christians who are cheerful when they hear of rape, murder, incest and those other things you mentioned? This really is news to me, and I was raised in an actively Christian household (not merely “culturally Christian” as many people in the West are), and have been Christian all my life. I have never heard of this.

I have heard the condemnation of evil behavior in the name of God on the side of the Christians in many well-publicized statements, and I have heard similar statements by a much smaller number of leaders in the Muslim world. Unfortunately, many of these brave Muslims who speak out against terrorism end up the victims of it, as was the case of Dr. Safrez Naeemi. May God reward them for the good they tried to do amidst a culture of violence and ignorance.

Well, I know alot of them who are cheerful on the atrocities the Israelis are committing on the Muslim AND Christians of Palestine. Who ever becomes a victum of speaking against terrorism May God Reward them. Still, it was the same misguided people who caused the good ones to become victums of truth.

 

[rpp]

Any Christianity that is not a “political project” is a severely defective form of Christianity.

Actually, being politically correct would be a sign that that Christian sect is seriously defective.

“Political correctness” is, by nature, anti-Christian to the core.

Bu then, we are not talking about the Christian Church so let’s stick with the topic.

 

[dzheremi]

Please, where does it say that kill the polytheist so the religion may prevail. It says that the Religion whether the polytheist like it or not.

Where did I say that it did? But not to worry; there are plenty of other places in the Qur’an and hadith where it says to kill non-believers, or to subjugate them.

(9:29) “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

(8:12) “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

(3:151) “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.

There are many more violence passages in the hadith, as well.

Does the word prevail have anything to do with violence tell me.

The word “prevail”, outside of any context, is not intrinsically linked with violence. The way that the Qur’an sets out to make Islam prevail is intrinsically linked with violence, however.

(2:191-193) “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

It does not say “play tic-tac-toe with them until you’re all buddies and they can come to Islam through your gentle and loving example”, it says “slay them where ye find them” and “fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah”, in other words, until they stop resisting you and convert to Islam or are killed.

Then you tell me i twist my words around.

When did I say that that’s what you are doing? Please quit playing the poor victim by putting words into my posts that aren’t there. If I think you’re lying, I’ll tell you.

Well, I know alot of them who are cheerful on the atrocities the Israelis are committing on the Muslim AND Christians of Palestine.

I don’t think so. I don’t know any Christian who rejoices at death and destruction in Palestine or elsewhere. There are some misguided evangelicals who claim that what goes on there is God’s judgment against that part of the world, but none who are happy about it. These same people generally say the same thing about hurricanes or other natural disasters that happen in the USA or elsewhere, by the way.

 

[planten]

Where did I say that it did? But not to worry; there are plenty of other places in the Qur’an and hadith where it says to kill non-believers, or to subjugate them.

**dzhereme, please read the translation of the verses as follows:

(8:12) “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who are enemies of Islam (Kafir). Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

(3:151) “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the enemies (Kafirs=disbelievers), for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.**

There are many more violence passages in the hadith, as well

.

There may be some untrue material in the books of Hadith like few false things in your book of Hadith i.e. your bibleNT. The Hadith and the bibleNt both are man made. So it is better not to indulge in them too much. They are not 100% reliable.

The word “prevail”, outside of any context, is not intrinsically linked with violence. The way that the Qur’an sets out to make Islam prevail is intrinsically linked with violence, however.

The world prevail is not necessarily violent. It is used in the Quran to show that the believers in Jesus prevailed upon their enemies. Quran 61:14, i.e. last verse of chapter 61,last few words.

(2:191-193) “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

It does not say “play tic-tac-toe with them until you’re all buddies and they can come to Islam through your gentle and loving example”, it says “slay them where ye find them” and “fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah”, in other words, until they stop resisting you and convert to Islam or are killed.

dzhereme, you have quoted only one verse 2:191,to prove weakness of Quran. Please read 2:190 and 2:191 together to understand the problem. Both verses are shown below after your one verse.

(2:191-193) “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

[2:190] وَقَـٰتِلُواْ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ ٱلَّذِينَ يُقَـٰتِلُونَكُمۡ وَلَا تَعۡتَدُوٓاْ‌ۚ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ ٱلۡمُعۡتَدِينَ

[2:190] And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.​

‏
[2:191] وَٱقۡتُلُوهُمۡ حَيۡثُ ثَقِفۡتُمُوهُمۡ وَأَخۡرِجُوهُم مِّنۡ حَيۡثُ أَخۡرَجُوكُمۡ‌ۚ وَٱلۡفِتۡنَةُ أَشَدُّ مِنَ ٱلۡقَتۡلِ‌ۚ وَلَا تُقَـٰتِلُوهُمۡ عِندَ ٱلۡمَسۡجِدِ ٱلۡحَرَامِ حَتَّىٰ يُقَـٰتِلُوكُمۡ فِيهِ‌ۖ فَإِن قَـٰتَلُوكُمۡ فَٱقۡتُلُوهُمۡ‌ۗ كَذَٲلِكَ جَزَآءُ ٱلۡكَـٰفِرِينَ

[2:191] And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers.

** I hope ou do not support those who kill people and make them run away from their homes. Would you like to sit idle when people are being oppressed and turned out of their homes? Was that the teaching of Jesus? I hope not.**

 

[dzheremi]

**dzhereme, please read the translation of the verses as follows:

(8:12) “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who are enemies of Islam (Kafir). Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

(3:151) “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the enemies (Kafirs=disbelievers), for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.**

And why should I feel any different about your translations? I am a Kafir. We have been told by Muslims that we are guilty of “joining companions with Allah” by our belief in the Holy Trinity, so those verses mention my people. You will say I am one of the ahl al-Kitaab, but this is not any way that I recognize myself as a Christian. We are not people of a Book. We are people of Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God. We are not people of Muhammad and we do not believe in his prophethood or the Qur’an. I would rather be a Kafir than live your millet.

There may be some untrue material in the books of Hadith like few false things in your book of Hadith i.e. your bibleNT. The Hadith and the bibleNt both are man made. So it is better not to indulge in them too much. They are not 100% reliable.

The NT is nothing like the hadith. The NT is 100% reliable, as it is the true word of God. There is “strong” vs. “weak” distinction in it as Muslims have to deal with hadiths that they find questionable. We dealt with issues of questionable content or authorship at canonization. Modern questions along those lines are the inventions of the atheistically-minded and the Protestants, neither of which will have any traction in a debate with me.

The world prevail is not necessarily violent. It is used in the Quran to show that the believers in Jesus prevailed upon their enemies. Quran 61:14, i.e. last verse of chapter 61,last few words.

That’s nice, but honestly I do not care what the Qur’an says about Jesus. This passage is of no importance to me, as I reject entirely the authority of the book that carries it.

dzhereme, you have quoted only one verse 2:191,to prove weakness of Quran. Please read 2:190 and 2:191 together to understand the problem. Both verses are shown below after your one verse.

[2:190] And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.
[2:191] And kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. And fight them not in, and near, the Sacred Mosque until they fight you therein. But if they fight you, then fight them: such is the requital for the disbelievers.

This is no better. How can the Qur’an say “do not transgress” (whatever that means) and then in the VERY NEXT VERSE tell its people to kill these people wherever they find them? If killing people is not a serious transgression (against God, I’m assuming, as he does not love killing), then I’d like to hear what is! As I’ve said before, the Qur’an is of two minds about violence. No wonder so many people are spurned to terrorism by a serious reading of it.

** I hope ou do not support those who kill people and make them run away from their homes. Would you like to sit idle when people are being oppressed and turned out of their homes? Was that the teaching of Jesus? I hope not.**

You’re right, I don’t support such people. This is precisely why I do not support Muslims who in their wars of “liberation” from “crusaders” and “Jews” destroy the homes and lives of so many who have the bad fortune to live in their own ancestral homelands when Muslims decided to take them for the Islamic Allah’s and Muhammad’s sake. This is why I feel Islam is a calamity, and has destroyed the vibrant cultures of the Middle East by assimilation, subjugation, and murder.

 

[Christos]

Where did I say that it did? But not to worry; there are plenty of other places in the Qur’an and hadith where it says to kill non-believers, or to subjugate them.

(9:29) “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

9:12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish - pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions).

9:13. Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

9:14. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people,

This is the context it is written in. There was a treaty made and for those who have broken the treaty it is saying to fight them.

(8:12) “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them”

Here you have quoted the verse wrong.

8:12 (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, “Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.”

Here God is adressing the Muslims of Madina reminding them of how God had helped them in the Battle of Badr against the Non-Muslims of Makkah.

8:9. (Remember) when you sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): “I will help you with a thousand of the angels each behind the other (following one another) in succession.”

8:10. Allah made it only as glad tidings, and that your hearts be at rest therewith. And there is no victory except from Allah. Verily, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

8:11. (Remember) when He covered you with a slumber as a security from Him, and He caused water (rain) to descend on you from the sky, to clean you thereby and to remove from you the Rijz (whispering, evil-suggestions, etc.) of Shaitan (Satan), and to strengthen your hearts, and make your feet firm thereby.

(3:151) “Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority”.

There are many more violence passages in the hadith, as well.

1. O you who believe! If you obey those who disbelieve, they will send you back on your heels, and you will turn back (from Faith) as losers.
2. Nay, Allah is your Maula (Patron, Lord, Helper and Protector, etc.), and He is the Best of helpers.
3. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allah, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire and how evil is the abode of the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers).

Here God is telling them when in Battle if you surrender to them and obey them, they will betray you and will turn you against your faith. If you read about the people of Makkah, and how the persecuted and tortured the many early Muslims, trying to make them give up Islam, then you will understand these verses.

The word “prevail”, outside of any context, is not intrinsically linked with violence. The way that the Qur’an sets out to make Islam prevail is intrinsically linked with violence, however.

(2:191-193) “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]…and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

WOW, AMAZING. Let me show you what is really in these verses.

1. And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.
2. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
3. But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
4. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

I am still Amazed as to how you missed these vital parts of the verse. May God Forgive you if it was unintentional. WOW.

It does not say “play tic-tac-toe with them until you’re all buddies and they can come to Islam through your gentle and loving example”, it says “slay them where ye find them” and “fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah”, in other words, until they stop resisting you and convert to Islam or are killed.

I just dont have words for the twistedness of this.

When did I say that that’s what you are doing? Please quit playing the poor victim by putting words into my posts that aren’t there. If I think you’re lying, I’ll tell you.

I meant to say how Christians generally say how Muslims are twisting the words. I didn’t mean exactly you and me, but forgive me for the misunderstanding.

I don’t think so. I don’t know any Christian who rejoices at death and destruction in Palestine or elsewhere. There are some misguided evangelicals who claim that what goes on there is God’s judgment against that part of the world, but none who are happy about it. These same people generally say the same thing about hurricanes or other natural disasters that happen in the USA or elsewhere, by the way.

youtube.com/watch?v=FABqq_jjRRo

Please watch this video on the Pro-Israel Rally, held earlier this year, when it was obvious to the entire world that Israel was breaking internation human rights.

 

[Benadam]

It’s a dangerous thing to believe a book is written by God and that you are a member of a people the book states is chosen by God.

The ultimate goal is conversion or destruction for all others.

If safegaurds to make certain that destruction is the work of God alone are not an obvious part of the teaching, war will rule over peace.

 

[Christos]

It’s a dangerous thing to believe a book is written by God and that you are a member of a people the book states is chosen by God.

The ultimate goal is conversion or destruction for all others.

If safegaurds to make certain that destruction is the work of God alone are not an obvious part of the teaching, dominace will rule over submission, war over peace.

Im sorry, but I honestly dont understand what you are saying here. I am not trying to be rude, but could you elaborate please.

 

[dzheremi]

9:12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish - pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions).

9:13. Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

9:14. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people,

This is the context it is written in. There was a treaty made and for those who have broken the treaty it is saying to fight them.

You are a sick individual if you think that this context excuses or justifies the quoted portion. It does not at all. Non-Muslims are taken to be “attacking” the religion by voicing their disapproval of it and rejection of Muhammad and his supposed prophethood. I do that, so I guess I am no better than them. Should I then wait to be killed for “attacking” Islam, and made to feel like I started it if Muslims come into my home and try to impose their will on me? That is the context for Muhammad’s confrontation with the pagans, was it not?

Here you have quoted the verse wrong.

8:12 (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, “Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.”

Here God is adressing the Muslims of Madina reminding them of how God had helped them in the Battle of Badr against the Non-Muslims of Makkah.

What’s your point? So now it is the Islamic Allah who is telling Muslims to massacre people for being disbelievers? That’s not any better.

1. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allah, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire and how evil is the abode of the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers).

Is it or is it not a common charge against Christians by Muslims that we have “joined partners with Allah” because of our belief in the Holy Trinity? I have read it here and elsewehre, from Muslims. If it is true, this verse addresses me. If it is not, then this verse addresses other people. EITHER WAY, it is no justification, just a declarative satement about how you’re going to terrorize people for not believing as you do. Not justifiable in the least.

Here God is telling them when in Battle if you surrender to them and obey them, they will betray you and will turn you against your faith. If you read about the people of Makkah, and how the persecuted and tortured the many early Muslims, trying to make them give up Islam, then you will understand these verses.

And if you read about the early Christian martyrs, you will see why we do not accept such justifications.

1. And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.

1. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

Again, how are 190 and 191 logically related? How can you “not transgress the limits” and yet also “kill them wherever you find them”? If that is justified, then just what is the limit?

1. But if they cease, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

So if they give up resisting Islam, don’t kill them anymore. How nice.

1. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah)

Like Christ, the Son of God? No deal.

I am still Amazed as to how you missed these vital parts of the verse. May God Forgive you if it was unintentional. WOW.

I didn’t miss them. I just don’t agree with your contextual justifications at all.

I just dont have words for the twistedness of this.

Yeah, the Qur’an is pretty twisted, at least from the point of view of the people who are the victims of its sick violence-minded exhortations. I’m sure if you’re a Muslim, it seems great.

youtube.com/watch?v=FABqq_jjRRo

Please watch this video on the Pro-Israel Rally, held earlier this year, when it was obvious to the entire world that Israel was breaking internation human rights.

Ugh. That is HORRIFYING. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I certainly do not stand with such people. They should all be ashamed.