What Pope Francis said about Communion for the divorced-and-remarried [CNA]

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Bookcat said:
I engaged you a number of times.

The teaching regarding “infallibility” does not protect against a law from being evil.

Now is it likely that a Pope is going to attempt to issue an evil law? No of course not.

Does the Holy Spirit help a Pope in such matters? Sure.

But it is not part of “infallibility” unless it is something that of faith and morals and according to the conditions noted by last two Councils.
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You haven’t proven that the last two councils spoke about everything pertaining to infallibility
 
Just because XYZ is of universal discipline does not make it “infallible” nor the fact that universal discipline XYZ is good and not evil make it “infallible”.
 
thinkandmull said:
You haven’t proven that the last two councils spoke about everything pertaining to infallibility
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Go read the texts. They defined infallibility quite clearly.

If they intended all universial laws from the Pope to be infallible - that would be quite clear.

Such is simply not the case.

Again that does not mean a Pope is going to try to make an evil law…or that the Holy Spirit does not assist him in making laws etc. It just is not per se an engagement of infallibility.
 
Bookcat said:
Go read the texts. They defined infallibility quite clearly.

If they intended all universial laws from the Pope to be infallible - that would be quite clear.

Such is simply not the case.
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They don’t mention Trents definition that liturgies are infallible. Other laws are just a corollary. You are using are argument from silence
 
thinkandmull said:
They don’t mention Trents definition that liturgies are infallible. Other laws are just a corollary. You are using are argument from silence
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Not sure what your trying to say.

Liturgies change too in various ways.
 
“Furthermore, the **discipline **sanctioned by the Church must never be **rejected **or be branded as contrary to certain principles of natural law.”

If its not infallible, than saints could reject it right?

“It must never be called crippled, or imperfect or subject to civil authority.”

“In this **discipline **the administration of sacred rites, standards of morality, and the reckoning of the rights of the Church and her ministers are embraced. To use the words of the fathers of Trent, it is certain that the Church ‘was instructed by Jesus Christ and His Apostles and that all truth was daily taught it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.’”

Pope Gregory XVI is just in a long line of popes condemning those who reject the discipline of the church. If her laws are not protected by God she is too imperfect for any of us
 
Bookcat said:
Not sure what your trying to say.

Liturgies change too in various ways.
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Again, a liturgy is not infallible in the sense that it can’t change. its infallible in the sense that it can’t be heretical in its parts or invalid
 
thinkandmull said:
“Furthermore, the **discipline **sanctioned by the Church must never be **rejected **or be branded as contrary to certain principles of natural law.”

If its not infallible, than saints could reject it right?
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Some does NOT have to be infallible for the Church to say that such and such law is not to be rejected or said to be contrary to natural law!

Has nothing to do with infallibility.

I can tell my kids - you must never do Y and must not say that Dad is wrong about Y.

That does not mean that Y - even if good and true - is infallible.
 
thinkandmull said:
Again, a liturgy is not infallible in the sense that it can’t change. its infallible in the sense that it can’t be heretical in its parts or invalid
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That does not require infallibility. But simply the authority of the Church.
 
If you read Gregory as a context you will see that discipline cannot be against natural law, nor therefore divine law, but it is protected by the holy spirit. Pope Gregory says just that as do all traditional theologians except the SSPX
 
thinkandmull said:
Pope Gregory XVI is just in a long line of popes condemning those who reject the discipline of the church. If her laws are not protected by God she is too imperfect for any of us
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Saying as Pope that the discipline of the Church is not to be rejected - or said to be evil et al - does not an invoking of infallibility. The Church does not need to invoke such to say that.

One is not to reject the discipline of the Church. Yes of course.

Does not make the disciplines of the Church infallible though.

My kids are to obey my “disciplines” because of my authority from God - too. But that does not make my disciples infallible. And I too can tell them on my authority as their Father that they are not to reject them…tis not an infallible act.
 
catholic.com/quickquestions/can-the-pope-bind-all-future-popes-to-a-specific-liturgical-discipline

Question
Can the pope bind all future popes to a specific liturgical discipline?
Answer

**Absolutely not. **Discipline, by its very nature, is a changeable practice that is determined by those with the authority to impose it. Dogma, on the other hand, is a definition of objective supernatural reality and therefore cannot be changed.

The Code of Canon Law says this about the authority of the pope:
Code: 
The office uniquely committed by the Lord to Peter, the first of the apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, abides in the bishop of the Church of Rome. He is the head of the college of bishops, the vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church here on earth. Consequently, by virtue of his office, he has supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, and he can always freely exercise this power. (CIC 331)
“Supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power” includes disciplinary authority. If a preceding pope could hamstring the disciplinary authority of his successors by issuing a disciplinary decree binding upon his successors under pain of mortal sin, then the current pope could not be said to have full disciplinary authority over the Church.

The disciplinary authority of a particular pope ends with his death. Successors may choose to continue to promulgate the disciplinary edicts of their predecessors because such edicts continue to be of importance to the life of the Church, but they are not bound to do so
 
The Church does not teach that a discipline of the Church is infallible because it is issued by the Pope.

It is yes to be followed (when issued as such) -but that does not mean it is infallible.
 
_Abyssinia said:
Fr Gerald Murray was interviewed on ‘World Over Live’ on EWTN and talked about this letter from the Pope etc. and Fr Gerald Murray said, “The Pope has given a permission, he’s not given a commandment, so as a Priest I don’t have to follow this and say someone comes up to me and says I’m living in an adulterous second marriage and I’d like to receive Communion, and I’ll say no unless you live as brother and sister, if unless you split up, then you can return to the Sacraments.”

So now conceivably one Priest from Argentina or perhaps elsewhere may allow a divorced and remarried person in a circumstance to receive Communion and another Priest elsewhere may not?

This whole issue in my view really needs further clarification, ideally from the Vatican.
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This is precisely my point. If the Church allows the taking of Communion after remarriage, then why does the Pope have to clarify this. This is making a grey area where there was none.

Isn’t the Pope the only one who has the final say as to whether a marriage was valid or not and not a mere priest.? How can the Pope defer to a priest without infallibility to make a decision on such things?
 
lil_john said:
This is precisely my point. If the Church allows the taking of Communion after remarriage, then why does the Pope have to clarify this. This is making a grey area where there was none.

Isn’t the Pope the only one who has the final say as to whether a marriage was valid or not and not a mere priest.? How can the Pope defer to a priest without infallibility to make a decision on such things?
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Am I to understand that you think that it is the Pope who issues decrees by which a marriage is declared invalid, and therefore null, or upholds the validity? And that you think these actions that you suppose him to carry out would be protected by the charism of infallibility?

Even the cases tried before the Rota he does not adjudicate personally.

Do you have any idea how many thousands of declarations are issued annually by “mere” priests? We do it every day.

This process, which is a legal process that unfolds under the norms of law, never engages, or could engage, the charism of infallibility.
 
Bookcat, read my post 76 on Gregory XVI. He says that God protects the Church in her discipline to follow all truth
 
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