What, precisely, has been immorally commanded?

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As I happen not to believe that every act of the Holy See is presumed null and void until proven otherwise, but rather actually quite the reverse,
This is part of the problem. Who is stating that “every act of the Holy See” is presumed null and void until proven otherwise? What are you actually referring to that has a basis in reality?
I have been seeking to ascertain why someone would consider himself justified in living under such a reality.
Then you are purely engaging in speculation. Since you can’t provide any evidence of the situation in your scenario actually existing, why are you asking for specifics in regards to “what precisely, has been immorally commanded?”

You should have posted “What precisely, **could be **immorally commanded?”
I have declined answering each and every question posed to me because I have been trying to maintain a reasonable level of adherence to the point of the thread.
No. You haven’t. You asked “precisely” what had been commanded? If you can’t provide the fact of disobedience precisely, you can’t provide the context for the disobedience to be morally licit or the obedience to be immoral.
For instance “have the local ordinaries been faithful shepherds at all times” does not seem to make a positive case, therefore I ignored it. It’s a rabbit hole.
Again, no. The answer is “No. they haven’t.” Well that opens up the case of “true obedience in hierarchical subordination” according to Vatican I. And suddenly we are into St. Thomas’ and the other Doctors of the Church arguments addressing morally licit disobedience.
BTW - Abp. Lefebvre’s society was, indeed, canonically erected. That erection, however, was *ad experimentum *and was not renewed, not even by tacit approval, thus even if we disregard the canonical suppression in 1975 of what was actually erected as a pious union, his society became uncanonical de facto as of 1976.
Actually:

geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/sspxap.htm
It was legally erected in the diocese of Geneva - Lausanne & Fribourg by His Lordship Bishop François Charrière on November 1 1970. It was approved for 6 years ad experimentum. However: **“A congregation founded by a Bishop is and remains a diocesan congregation… until such time as it receives pontifical approbation, or at least the decree of praise (can. 492 # 2)” **
**This is precisely what happened. On February 18 1971 a “decree of praise” from His Eminence John Cardinal Wright gave the SSPX Roman approval thus removing the SSPX from the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Geneva - Lausanne & Fribourg. **Further proof of Roman approbation is the fact that in 1972, the Vatican allowed 3 members of religious orders having pronounced their perpetual vows to be transferred from their orders into the SSPX. Thus de facto Rome recognised and approved the existence of the SSPX. A Dominican religious who, even after the said suspensio a divinis of 1976, asked and obtained from Rome permission to leave the Dominican Order to join the SSPX. If the SSPX was really suppressed why would Rome allow a Dominican religious to leave the Dominicans to join a suppressed Society?
It is said that the approval given to the Society was retracted by Mgr Mamie, successor of Mgr Charrière, by a decree of May 1975. That may be so but once a religious order has been approved by a Bishop it can only be suppressed by the Holy See (can. 493 in 1917 code applicable at the time of the Mgr Mamie and can. 584 in the code of 1983). Further it is clear from Mgr Mamie’s letter that his decree (like the suspensio a divinis of which we shall speak later) came because of the Archbishop’s refusal of the orientations of Vatican II and the new liturgy. The SSPX was therefore illegally suppressed by Mgr Mamie, successor of Mgr Charrière, not by the Holy See.
 
This is part of the problem. Who is stating that “every act of the Holy See” is presumed null and void until proven otherwise? What are you actually referring to that has a basis in reality?

Then you are purely engaging in speculation. Since you can’t provide any evidence of the situation in your scenario actually existing, why are you asking for specifics in regards to “what precisely, has been immorally commanded?”

You should have posted “What precisely, **could be **immorally commanded?”

No. You haven’t. You asked “precisely” what had been commanded? If you can’t provide the fact of disobedience precisely, you can’t provide the context for the disobedience to be morally licit or the obedience to be immoral.

Again, no. The answer is “No. they haven’t.” Well that opens up the case of “true obedience in hierarchical subordination” according to Vatican I. And suddenly we are into St. Thomas’ and the other Doctors of the Church arguments addressing morally licit disobedience.

Actually:

geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/sspxap.htm
Abp. Lefebvre’s illicit consecrations for which he was excommunicated were public, thus I am canonically bound to presume the imputability of those actions. Every single interpretation of the law and response to the abp.'s arguments that has been proferred by the Holy See has confirmed the sanctions against him. This is not one isolated case but decades worth of correspondence. Given all of this, why should the burden of proof be upon me to establish what the law obliges us to presume? My above comment about the validity of acts of the Holy See was aimed at precisely this point: the burden of proof does not fall upon the Holy See to show that each and every one of its acts was, indeed, valid. Rather, the onus lies upon the one who contends it was not. Thus it is wrongheaded to presuppose that I, in adopting the decades worth of decisions issued by the Holy See as the starting point of the discussion, am obliged to prove their validity against each and every argument. It is perfectly legitimate to assume them as a point of departure.
 
I’m still waiting for an answer to this in one’s own words.
My question is, though, what has this pope, Benedict, or previous popes commanded that
  1. is immoral and thus must be disobeyed and
  2. has been placed as a condition of communion such that maintaining full communion with the Holy See is impossible while disobeying this order?
I’d be happy if even just number 1 was answered. It really shouldn’t be that hard to list
I mean, I’ve been hearing the “We can’t obey an immoral command” for so long now that I’d assume people would have a list ready. Unless, of course, that this has always been one big red herring.
 
Where did all the pro-SSPX traditionalists go?

Boy, it got quiet in here.

Crickets.

Gerard, you argument is now juts “what disobedience? what irregular situation?” That’s like the pseudo-historians who say, “oh yeah, prove there was actually a holocaust.”
 
Abp. Lefebvre’s illicit consecrations for which he was excommunicated were public, thus I am canonically bound to presume the imputability of those actions. Every single interpretation of the law and response to the abp.'s arguments that has been proferred by the Holy See has confirmed the sanctions against him. This is not one isolated case but decades worth of correspondence. Given all of this, why should the burden of proof be upon me to establish what the law obliges us to presume?
Wait a minute. You are saying that your conclusions must by law be based on the law and not on reason?

What law obliges this of you? This flies in the face of Church teaching.

St. Thomas Aquinas says:

Whether human law binds a man’s conscience

Human laws are either just or unjust. If they are just, they have the power to bind our conscience because of the eternal law from which they are derived. As Proverbs says, “Through me kings reign and lawmakers decree just laws” (Prov. 8:15).
Laws are said to be just either because of their end, when they are ordained to the common good; or because of their author, when the law does not exceed the power of the lawmaker; or because of their form, when burdens are distributed equitably among subjects for the common good. For since a man is part of the multitude, whatever he is or has belongs to the multitude as a part belongs to the whole. Thus nature inflicts harm on a part in order to save the whole. Accordingly laws which inflict burdens equitably are just, bind the conscience, and are legal laws.

Laws are unjust in two ways: First, they may be such because they oppose human good by denying the three criteria just mentioned. This can occur because of their end, when a ruler imposes burdens with an eye, not to the common good, but to his own enrichment or glory; because of their author, when someone imposes laws beyond the scope of his authority; or because of their form, when burdens are inequitably distributed, even if they are ordered to the common good. Such decrees are not so much laws as acts of violence, because, as Augustine says, “An unjust law does not seem to be a law at all.” Such laws do not bind the conscience, except perhaps to avoid scandal or disturbance, on account of which one should yield his right. As Christ says, “If someone forces you to go a mile, go another two with him; and if he takes your tunic, give him your pallium” (Mtt. 5:40f.).

Whether someone subject to the law can act outside the letter of the law

All law is ordered to the common well-being of men and gains the force of law from precisely that fact. To the degree that it fails in accomplishing this end, it loses its binding force. Thus the Jurist says, “No reason of law or advantage of equity allows us to interpret harshly and render burdensome those healthy measures which were originally enacted for man s welfare.”

It often happens that a law aimed at the general welfare is useful in most cases and yet on occasion is very harmful.

Because a legislator cannot foresee all possible individual cases, he promulgates a law which fits the majority of cases, having the common good in mind.

If a case emerges in which the law is harmful to the common good, it should not be observed.

For example, if a law says that the gates of a certain besieged city should remain closed, such a law is beneficial to the city in most cases; yet if the enemy is pursuing some of the very citizens by whom the city is defended, refusal to open the gates and let them in would be harmful to the city. In such cases, the gates should be opened despite the letter of the law, in order to attain the common good intended by the legislator.

Note, though, that if obedience to the letter of the law involves no immediate danger calling for instant remedy, not everyone is competent to decide what is good or bad for the city, but only the leaders, who have authority to dispense with the law in such cases. If it is indeed a matter of immediate danger allowing no time to consult a superior, such necessity carries its own dispensation, for necessity knows no law.
My above comment about the validity of acts of the Holy See was aimed at precisely this point: the burden of proof does not fall upon the Holy See to show that each and every one of its acts was, indeed, valid. Rather, the onus lies upon the one who contends it was not. Thus it is wrongheaded to presuppose that I, in adopting the decades worth of decisions issued by the Holy See as the starting point of the discussion, am obliged to prove their validity against each and every argument. It is perfectly legitimate to assume them as a point of departure.
That is an utterly absurd tautology. You presume that all orders are moral and then demand a citation of an immoral order. When it is presented, you reject it’s validity on the account of your presumption.

Chesterton described this as " First he challenged me to find a black swan, and then he ruled out all my swans because they were black."
 
Where did all the pro-SSPX traditionalists go?

Boy, it got quiet in here.

Crickets.

Gerard, you argument is now juts “what disobedience? what irregular situation?” That’s like the pseudo-historians who say, “oh yeah, prove there was actually a holocaust.”
It’s called keeping your powder dry. 👍

Read up on Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, or study a good game of Chess, it all requires patience and planning.

I’ve won this argument. I just haven’t delivered the killing blow.

Though I am having Keyboard/mouse trouble with my computer. I may have to wait till I get home to post it. But I’ll try to get to it today.
 
My question is, though, what has this pope, Benedict, or **previous popes **commanded that
  1. is immoral and thus must be disobeyed and
  2. has been placed as a condition of communion such that maintaining full communion with the Holy See is impossible while disobeying this order?
I see that we are going to have to establish the fact that a Pope can issue an immoral command.

Let’s look at the history of the Church:

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Under Stephen VI, the successor of Boniface,
Emperor Lambert and Agiltrude recovered their authority in Rome at the beginning of 897, having renounced their claims to the greater part of Upper and Central Italy. Agiltrude being determined to wreak vengeance on her opponent even after his death, Stephen VI lent himself to the revolting scene of sitting in judgment on his predecessor, Formosus. At the synod convened for that purpose, he occupied the chair; the corpse, clad in papal vestments, was withdrawn from the sarcophagus and seated on a throne; close by stood a deacon to answer in its name, all the old charges formulated against Formosus under John VIII being revived. The decision was that the deceased had been unworthy of the pontificate, which he could not have validly received since he was bishop of another see. All his measures and acts were annulled, and all the orders conferred by him were declared invalid. The papal vestments were torn from his body; the three fingers which the dead pope had used in consecrations were severed from his right hand; the corpse was cast into a grave in the cemetery for strangers, to be removed after a few days and consigned to the Tiber. In 897 the second successor of Stephen had the body, which a monk had drawn from the Tiber, reinterred with full honours in St. Peter’s. He furthermore annulled at a synod the decisions of the court of Stephen VI, and declared all orders conferred by Formosus valid. John IX confirmed these acts at two synods, of which the first was held at Rome and the other at Ravenna (898). On the other hand Sergius III (904-911) approved in a Roman synod the decisions of Stephen’s synod against Formosus; all who had received orders from the latter were to be treated as lay persons, unless they sought reordination. Sergius and his party meted out severe treatment to the bishops consecrated by Formosus, who in turn had meanwhile conferred orders on many other clerics, a policy which gave rise to the greatest confusion. Against these decisions many books were written, which demonstrated the validity of the consecration of Formosus and of the orders conferred by him (see AUXILIUS).

As anyone can see. The Deacon that participated in this revolting scene was given an immoral duty in obedience to the orders of the Pope acting as Supreme Pontiff in judgement of his predecessor.

If anyone does not believe that the Deacon had the moral right and obligation to refuse to cooperate. I’d love to read their argument.
 
I see that we are going to have to establish the fact that a Pope can issue an immoral command.

Not really. We’re just asking what it was and have been the entire course of the thread. You are the one who would seem to be dragging everyone off on your tangents without giving a simple list.
 
Andreas, would you like to narrow the scope of the original question with “binding on all of the faithull” or some other wording that might close the tangent loophole for Gerard?
 
Andreas, would you like to narrow the scope of the original question with “binding on all of the faithull” or some other wording that might close the tangent loophole for Gerard?
Are you asking for an ex cathedra statement that is somehow immoral?
 
Wait a minute. You are saying that your conclusions must by law be based on the law and not on reason?

What law obliges this of you? This flies in the face of Church teaching.

St. Thomas Aquinas says:

Whether human law binds a man’s conscience

Human laws are either just or unjust. If they are just, they have the power to bind our conscience because of the eternal law from which they are derived. As Proverbs says, “Through me kings reign and lawmakers decree just laws” (Prov. 8:15).
Laws are said to be just either because of their end, when they are ordained to the common good; or because of their author, when the law does not exceed the power of the lawmaker; or because of their form, when burdens are distributed equitably among subjects for the common good. For since a man is part of the multitude, whatever he is or has belongs to the multitude as a part belongs to the whole. Thus nature inflicts harm on a part in order to save the whole. Accordingly laws which inflict burdens equitably are just, bind the conscience, and are legal laws.

Laws are unjust in two ways: First, they may be such because they oppose human good by denying the three criteria just mentioned. This can occur because of their end, when a ruler imposes burdens with an eye, not to the common good, but to his own enrichment or glory; because of their author, when someone imposes laws beyond the scope of his authority; or because of their form, when burdens are inequitably distributed, even if they are ordered to the common good. Such decrees are not so much laws as acts of violence, because, as Augustine says, “An unjust law does not seem to be a law at all.” Such laws do not bind the conscience, except perhaps to avoid scandal or disturbance, on account of which one should yield his right. As Christ says, “If someone forces you to go a mile, go another two with him; and if he takes your tunic, give him your pallium” (Mtt. 5:40f.).

Whether someone subject to the law can act outside the letter of the law

All law is ordered to the common well-being of men and gains the force of law from precisely that fact. To the degree that it fails in accomplishing this end, it loses its binding force. Thus the Jurist says, “No reason of law or advantage of equity allows us to interpret harshly and render burdensome those healthy measures which were originally enacted for man s welfare.”

It often happens that a law aimed at the general welfare is useful in most cases and yet on occasion is very harmful.

Because a legislator cannot foresee all possible individual cases, he promulgates a law which fits the majority of cases, having the common good in mind.

If a case emerges in which the law is harmful to the common good, it should not be observed.

For example, if a law says that the gates of a certain besieged city should remain closed, such a law is beneficial to the city in most cases; yet if the enemy is pursuing some of the very citizens by whom the city is defended, refusal to open the gates and let them in would be harmful to the city. In such cases, the gates should be opened despite the letter of the law, in order to attain the common good intended by the legislator.

Note, though, that if obedience to the letter of the law involves no immediate danger calling for instant remedy, not everyone is competent to decide what is good or bad for the city, but only the leaders, who have authority to dispense with the law in such cases. If it is indeed a matter of immediate danger allowing no time to consult a superior, such necessity carries its own dispensation, for necessity knows no law.

That is an utterly absurd tautology. You presume that all orders are moral and then demand a citation of an immoral order. When it is presented, you reject it’s validity on the account of your presumption.

Chesterton described this as " First he challenged me to find a black swan, and then he ruled out all my swans because they were black."
So now you do believe that some traditionalists have disobeyed the law? After all, you just got done challenging me to prove that disobedience has occurred. Since you claim no disobedience did occur, then it would hardly seem necessary to debate about when one is justified in disobeying the law. If you don’t think anyone has disobeyed any law whatsoever, then why are you pointing me to Thomas on justified disobedience?

I’m not saying all conclusion must be based on law and not reason. Rather, I’m saying that you’ve placed the burden of proof in exactly the opposite spot done by the law of the Church. The law says that if the disobedient act is public we must presume its imputability. Presume doesn’t mean “exclude any possibility of the presumption being overturned,” but it does mean “the burden of proof is on the challenger to overturn the assumption.”

The metaphor of a gate is great. The soldiers at the gate are not required to reflect every time someone comes to the gate and say “can I find sufficient grounds for keeping the gate closed in this particular case?” Rather, they are to obey the ordinarily just order and, when they become suspicious that in this particular case it is unjust, then they ask themselves whether there are sufficient grounds to countermand the order. I haven’t disqualified any of your swans because you’ve refused to produce them, claiming yourself that, in this case, black swans do not even exist.

Now, we can do one of two things. Either we can agree that laws were disobeyed (in which case we can then go on to ask which of them were disobeyed and what justified that disobedience) or else we can disagree as to the mere existence of disobedience and drop the subject.
 
Are you asking for an ex cathedra statement that is somehow immoral?
If you mean ex cathedra as in something like the Immaculate Conception then nope.

I’m not Andreas but I’d be happy if someone could point out a document from 1) directly from the one of the last 2 Holy Fathers (since these were the 2 the SSPX was dealing with) or 2)from VII which the SSPX also have contentions with. From these three sources, where are the things which must be disobeyed because they are immoral or contrary to Tradition? In other words instead of the vague statement “I cannot obey that which is immoral, sinful or contrary to Tradition” how about a list of what that actually is?

Like Andras has said, you must think something has been commanded because this same statement repeatedly comes up.
 
It’s called keeping your powder dry. 👍

Read up on Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, or study a good game of Chess, it all requires patience and planning.

I’ve won this argument. I just haven’t delivered the killing blow.

Though I am having Keyboard/mouse trouble with my computer. I may have to wait till I get home to post it. But I’ll try to get to it today.
:rotfl:

Hahahahahahahaha.

That is the funniest thing you ever wrote.

Let us continue along your line of argument…First, you must prove to me that Archbishop Lefevbre was a real person and, at one time, existed. I don’t believe he did. Before we can discuss anything regarding him, you must first prove that he existed.
 
Take it up with B16 and any others who were around during that time.

While SP says TLM was not abrogated he does not say replacing it with the OF was an inappropriate (or worse) action.
What time ? VII ? 1969 ?

If we take it up with them, they may agree with the argument that what was done to to the Liturgy was wrong.
Could the introduction of the NO be called an immoral commandment ?

Is destruction of the Liturgy immoral ?

Read this and tell me traditionalists are wrong about the NO.

ad2000.com.au/articles/2005/feb2005p15_1853.html

I can’t seem to find anyone willing to touch it.
 
What time ? VII ? 1969 ?

If we take it up with them, they may agree with the argument that what was done to to the Liturgy was wrong.
Could the introduction of the NO be called an immoral commandment ?

Is destruction of the Liturgy immoral ?

Read this and tell me traditionalists are wrong about the NO.

ad2000.com.au/articles/2005/feb2005p15_1853.html

I can’t seem to find anyone willing to touch it.
“Destruction” of the Liturgy – drama much?

It is a term that has no meaning outside of the dramatics.

The material on that site - can’t blame anyone for ‘not touching’ it - it is a strung together bit of editorializing - not much in itself.

That is like the 'I didn’t leave the Church - the Church left me line of those who walked away because of the changes after VII. Those who claim anything was destroyed are wrong and those who claim any of it was immoral are dead wrong.
 
Why doesn’t it mean much ? These are the words of our Holy Father, whom I loved before I found those quotes, and who I still love and pray for.

And the words of the man who co-authored the NO.

Why don’t they mean much ? We all speak for the Church and love to quote those in the Hierarchy don’t we ?

It’s just very comforting for me to know that there are those in Rome who are aware of our concerns, and are speaking out, acknowledging there is a problem. A quite large problem.

It’s really hard to take those quotes out of context.
 
Those who claim anything was destroyed are wrong and those who claim any of it was immoral are dead wrong.
ooops, forgot that part.

So, those quoted are wrong ? If the likes of them are wrong, where do we turn for our answers ?
 
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