G
GerardP
Guest
This is part of the problem. Who is stating that “every act of the Holy See” is presumed null and void until proven otherwise? What are you actually referring to that has a basis in reality?As I happen not to believe that every act of the Holy See is presumed null and void until proven otherwise, but rather actually quite the reverse,
Then you are purely engaging in speculation. Since you can’t provide any evidence of the situation in your scenario actually existing, why are you asking for specifics in regards to “what precisely, has been immorally commanded?”I have been seeking to ascertain why someone would consider himself justified in living under such a reality.
You should have posted “What precisely, **could be **immorally commanded?”
No. You haven’t. You asked “precisely” what had been commanded? If you can’t provide the fact of disobedience precisely, you can’t provide the context for the disobedience to be morally licit or the obedience to be immoral.I have declined answering each and every question posed to me because I have been trying to maintain a reasonable level of adherence to the point of the thread.
Again, no. The answer is “No. they haven’t.” Well that opens up the case of “true obedience in hierarchical subordination” according to Vatican I. And suddenly we are into St. Thomas’ and the other Doctors of the Church arguments addressing morally licit disobedience.For instance “have the local ordinaries been faithful shepherds at all times” does not seem to make a positive case, therefore I ignored it. It’s a rabbit hole.
Actually:BTW - Abp. Lefebvre’s society was, indeed, canonically erected. That erection, however, was *ad experimentum *and was not renewed, not even by tacit approval, thus even if we disregard the canonical suppression in 1975 of what was actually erected as a pious union, his society became uncanonical de facto as of 1976.
geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/3543/sspxap.htm
It was legally erected in the diocese of Geneva - Lausanne & Fribourg by His Lordship Bishop François Charrière on November 1 1970. It was approved for 6 years ad experimentum. However: **“A congregation founded by a Bishop is and remains a diocesan congregation… until such time as it receives pontifical approbation, or at least the decree of praise (can. 492 # 2)” **
**This is precisely what happened. On February 18 1971 a “decree of praise” from His Eminence John Cardinal Wright gave the SSPX Roman approval thus removing the SSPX from the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Geneva - Lausanne & Fribourg. **Further proof of Roman approbation is the fact that in 1972, the Vatican allowed 3 members of religious orders having pronounced their perpetual vows to be transferred from their orders into the SSPX. Thus de facto Rome recognised and approved the existence of the SSPX. A Dominican religious who, even after the said suspensio a divinis of 1976, asked and obtained from Rome permission to leave the Dominican Order to join the SSPX. If the SSPX was really suppressed why would Rome allow a Dominican religious to leave the Dominicans to join a suppressed Society?
It is said that the approval given to the Society was retracted by Mgr Mamie, successor of Mgr Charrière, by a decree of May 1975. That may be so but once a religious order has been approved by a Bishop it can only be suppressed by the Holy See (can. 493 in 1917 code applicable at the time of the Mgr Mamie and can. 584 in the code of 1983). Further it is clear from Mgr Mamie’s letter that his decree (like the suspensio a divinis of which we shall speak later) came because of the Archbishop’s refusal of the orientations of Vatican II and the new liturgy. The SSPX was therefore illegally suppressed by Mgr Mamie, successor of Mgr Charrière, not by the Holy See.