What precisely Is the "self"?

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Don’t you think you are being unfair, you know what he is saying.

Obviously, the powers of the Spirit - God, Angel, soul are properly proportioned to the proper nature of the being under discussion.

Since the human soul is the form of the human body, it is the human being, the Person who performs all the functions proper to the human being. The soul, though it does perform some functions independently of the body, it cannot perform even these without the body. This is because the soul was created to be the life, intellectual principle of the Person. But unless the body’s senses function, no information comes to the soul and it is nothing but a " tabula raza. " So it is the entire Person, the composit of body and soul who senses, thinks, acts. That is what the poster is saying. And I agree. And so do you.
At least you should. 👍
If all our information comes from the senses we have no spiritual or moral knowledge, no intuitions, no inspirations, no revelations…
 
The fact remains that we infer the existence of material objects. We cannot know things as they really are because we all perceive them differently. No two persons see things identically because what we see depends on our physiological makeup and on our upbringing and expectations.

All we see as babies is a mass of colours and shapes we gradually associate with qualities like size, distance, texture and density as the result of our experience and education. Everything we know about the world is a logical construct from what we perceive with our senses. The world is undoubtedly real because it is the cause of our physical sensations but what we make of the world is the result of reflection. That is why there are different interpretations of reality. If it were as clear as daylight there would be no scope for disagreement.
I think Bertrand Russell and other sense datum enthusiasts were wrong.

You and I both see the apple on the table - directly, immediately, but from different perspectives. If this weren’t the case, we could never talk about the apple in the first place. We would be locked inside our own private cabinet of internal sense data peculiar to each one of us - conversation would be impossible.

I’m not denying brain events or phantasms. I’m only saying that we are never directly aware of brain events or phantasms - we are only aware of the apple on the table.

This applies to babies as well. Although they may not have language, they are not, contrary to William James, imprisoned in a solipsistic, booming, buzzing confusion of private sense data. No, they are already directly aware of the world at large but in a rudimentary way (e.g., they may not yet be able to appreciate object constancy). Disclosure is already at work, e.g., babies have no problem finding the nipple.

We do not get to the external world through an elaborate inferential process.

Otherwise, we would be subjected to Wittgenstein’s paradox of the beetle in the box. I can’t look at your beetle, and you can’t look at my beetle. In fact, who’s to say that your beetle is really a beetle at all.

As Heidegger once said, trying to prove the existence of an external world is the scandal of philosophy. Look what happened to Hume at the end of his famous book on the subject - A Treatise of Human Nature. He had to return to his backgammon game.
 
I think Bertrand Russell and other sense datum enthusiasts were wrong.

You and I both see the apple on the table - directly, immediately, but from different perspectives. If this weren’t the case, we could never talk about the apple in the first place. We would be locked inside our own private cabinet of internal sense data peculiar to each one of us - conversation would be impossible.

I’m not denying brain events or phantasms. I’m only saying that we are never directly aware of brain events or phantasms - we are only aware of the apple on the table.
We don’t see the substance of the apple. We perceive its qualities - size, weight, shape, colour, taste and smell - which enable us to discuss it and compare our impressions of it.
This applies to babies as well. Although they may not have language, they are not, contrary to William James, imprisoned in a solipsistic, booming, buzzing confusion of private sense data. No, they are already directly aware of the world at large but in a rudimentary way (e.g., they may not yet be able to appreciate object constancy). Disclosure is already at work, e.g., babies have no problem finding the nipple.
They find the nipple through instinct…
We do not get to the external world through an elaborate inferential process.
It’s not an elaborate but a natural process which entails the use of our intelligence.
Otherwise, we would be subjected to Wittgenstein’s paradox of the beetle in the box. I can’t look at your beetle, and you can’t look at my beetle. In fact, who’s to say that your beetle is really a beetle at all.
It’s not a case of all or nothing. Most of what we perceive is common to everyone.
As Heidegger once said, trying to prove the existence of an external world is the scandal of philosophy. Look what happened to Hume at the end of his famous book on the subject - A Treatise of Human Nature. He had to return to his backgammon game.
/QUOTEHome was a phenomenalist who denied the existence of substance - without which the doctrine of transubstantiation is obviously meaningless. He denied the existence of the self and reduced us to “a bundle of impressions”!
 
Correction:

Hume was a phenomenalist who denied the existence of substance - without which the doctrine of transubstantiation is obviously meaningless.

By retiring to a game of backgammon he more or less conceded his conclusions had led him to a dead end! He was left without nothing substantial in any sense of the term… That tells us a lot about the limitations of the senses when it comes to explaining the nature of reality.

No phenomenalist has ever explained what integrates the “bundle” (of impressions) and keeps it together… 😉
 
Correction:

Hume was a phenomenalist who denied the existence of substance - without which the doctrine of transubstantiation is obviously meaningless.

By retiring to a game of backgammon he more or less conceded his conclusions had led him to a dead end! He was left without nothing substantial in any sense of the term… That tells us a lot about the limitations of the senses when it comes to explaining the nature of reality.

No phenomenalist has ever explained what integrates the “bundle” (of impressions) and keeps it together… 😉
If , at the beginning of our epistemological journey, we start with private sense data and then infer the existence of external reality - which I take to be your position - isn’t that just recapitulating Hume’s phenomenalism?

As you suggested, “substance” is a “construction” - which is the path Kant took.

Kant could be said to have carried out Hume’s position to its logical conclusion by adding a transcendental category of substance to the impressions - a category that comes from “us” not the thing itself.

In this scenario, the thing itself (the noumenon) is forever inaccessible…
 
If , at the beginning of our epistemological journey, we start with private sense data and then infer the existence of external reality - which I take to be your position - isn’t that just recapitulating Hume’s phenomenalism?
I cannot be a phenomenalist because I believe in both spiritual substance and material substance.
As you suggested, “substance” is a “construction” - which is the path Kant took.
I believe substance is a reality we intuitively recognise. We know things don’t exist merely as qualities.
Kant could be said to have carried out Hume’s position to its logical conclusion by adding a transcendental category of substance.
In this scenario, the thing itself (the noumenon) is forever inaccessible…
If we believe everything is created by God we necessarily believe the ultimate nature of reality is forever inaccessible because we do not have divine knowledge.
 
If all our information comes from the senses we have no spiritual or moral knowledge, no intuitions, no inspirations, no revelations…
You know that we can’t cover an entire Theory of Knowledge in a few posts, especially since there must be about twenty of them. But in response to the above, of course God can intervine and I’m sure he does all the time.

What I meant in my prior posts is that the first act of the intellect is its grasp of being, that which exists, as it exists, as it exercises its act of " to be. " All our knowledge begins there. But after combining and sorting and recombining the " universals, " or intelligible " ideas " we have received from the senses and compared to the ideas the intellect froms from these, whether from things or from some type of communication from other people, we begin to build a knowledge base only indirectly based on the senses.
So not every act of the intellect depends directly on the " sensebles " coming from things outside of our mind.

But the fact remains that the existence of the material world is a self evident fact that cannot be either proven nor disproven and we know the truth of this fact because our intellects were designed by God to recongnize truth, especially in its most fundamental aspects.

So, we do not infer its existence, we know it. Period. We do not reflect upon the fundamental given fact about material reality outside the mind, we sense it and immediately judge it to be so, " to be. " .👍
 
You know that we can’t cover an entire Theory of Knowledge in a few posts, especially since there must be about twenty of them. But in response to the above, of course God can intervine and I’m sure he does all the time.

What I meant in my prior posts is that the first act of the intellect is its grasp of being, that which exists, as it exists, as it exercises its act of " to be. " All our knowledge begins there. But after combining and sorting and recombining the " universals, " or intelligible " ideas " we have received from the senses and compared to the ideas the intellect froms from these, whether from things or from some type of communication from other people, we begin to build a knowledge base only indirectly based on the senses.
So not every act of the intellect depends directly on the " sensebles " coming from things outside of our mind.

But the fact remains that the existence of the material world is a self evident fact that cannot be either proven nor disproven and we know the truth of this fact because our intellects were designed by God to recongnize truth, especially in its most fundamental aspects.

So, we do not infer its existence, we know it. Period. We do not reflect upon the fundamental given fact about material reality outside the mind, we sense it and immediately judge it to be so, " to be. " .👍
We do not usually reflect upon the fact of material reality because we have been brought up in a society which is fundamentally materialistic. It is quite a different story in other cultures where there is greater awareness of spiritual reality…
 
Consciousness! I am not the contents of my consciousness, I am consciousness. Just as I am not (for example) the concept 2+2=4, even when I am thinking that, I am not my personality,intellect or beliefs.
 
Response to post 166
Pain (when present) self evidently exists. It would be absurd to say," I feel pain but do not believe I feel pain".
Actually, I believe we are in agreement. Its just that I’m seeing the same position from a different angle.
Ironically, empiricists (supposedly the most scientific position) base all their knowledge on qualia. Of course they would deny that. But that is what their position obviously implies.
The word “qualia” implies quality not quantity (quantifiable ). To believe that quanity can exist without quality as a foundation is absurd. Without something to count their cannot be counting.
 
It is a profound question that first occurred to me when I saw the word printed large – and learned that when I went to THOSE pumps, no one would pump my gas. :hmmm:

Also it’s the “ish” I seem to have the biggest problem with. Whereas “Irish” … is no problem at all … at all. :shamrock2:



I think of it as the conglomeration of everything I am and have been. My “self” is on a never ending journey. Once in a womb, then as a toddler, next a young student mastering language, mathematics, reading and the laws of the civilized world. Learning the roles I’d been assigned: son, grandson, brother, big brother etc. And meeting the outside world.

My “self” is like a kaleidoscope of change. The same elements are there, but life happening to me creates new patterns. My self is emotional too. Ensconced in a body that hears lullabies, marches and raindrops on the roof. Sees boundless horizons and tiny spaces under the bed. Feels the security of a warm jacket just out of the dryer or the cold snap of a winter wind blasting.

The smell of coffee or fresh baked bread recalls childhood securities in my self sometimes. The taste of a familiar product one hasn’t had in awhile jogs other memories.

My self has learned about the world around it (and knows it is still quite ignorant of much).
And it has learned about the world to come, hints of which are all around us. And “It” or should I say “I” have learned about God. And how He came to Earth to live as one of us, and sacrifice His life so that we could live where we belong. With Him … and our loved ones … in heaven.

Tomorrow I will not be QUITE the same. But I will be me … my self.

And as we are all beneficiaries of so many people we can never pay back, we must
give the gift of ourselves to others whenever possible. Our best selves.

The gifts we share: be it music, hard work, helping a team do something great together, etc. are our “Thank you” to the rest of God’s world … and our brothers and sisters who -
even when they don’t know it – help us be MORE in our “new self” as we begin again each day.

People who affirm us, like those we worship with for example, give our “selves” a nice feeling and security. Company. Confidence.

People who challenge us can sometimes make us … great! Or at least a little better.

Since we are eternal beings made in the image and likeness of God … who will we be 100 years from now - outside the “womb” of planet earth? And will “years” even matter
in that new life?

And what is that “born again” self that Jesus speaks of?

We should celebrate everything the Lord has given us … but our busy agendas make us
procrastinate about that. Yet with His Holy Spirit within us … we will be our best selves. Full of love and mirrors of Him to those around us if we will let our “self” open to Jesus.

Just my thoughts at this time. 👋
 
Consciousness! I am not the contents of my consciousness, I am consciousness. Just as I am not (for example) the concept 2+2=4, even when I am thinking that, I am not my personality,intellect or beliefs.
And what differentiates your consciousness from the thousands of millions of other consciousnesses in this world?

Is it not the contents of your human mind, and the surface boundary of your human body?
 
If I may, this is a post that I wrote in response to a “What is a Soul?” thread. While that thread is asking about a soul, rather than “self,” I believe the answers to both questions are related and have some overlap.
It has for some time seemed to me that the definition for soul is very simple, and that the existence of the soul is quite obvious. The soul, at its most basic when all else is stripped away, is simply the “most basic component of ‘self’.” Not the personality. Not the thoughts. Not the actions. Simply the most basic component of what we call “self.” This is indeed very difficult to explain, but to exist is to know it, even if by “over thinking” it you forget that you know it (as many modern materialists do).

Imagine a person who is made entirely of all the same physical material that our bodies are. Has the same brainwaves as we do. Can talk as we do, have measurable (from the outside) thought patterns as we do, eats as we do, cries as we do, has the same chemical reactions that cause emotions, etc. Now realize one thing: If you, yourself, judged this being based only on his own merits, not bringing your own existence into account, there is absolutely nothing that proves that he is not just a complex computer. As in, “not a self,” but only a blind mechanical sum of parts. Or, what some philosophers call a P Zombie: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_zombie And indeed, there is absolutely nothing physically measurable to prove, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that a human being is NOT that…except that we know better only by virtue (besides revelation) of being human and thus knowing that we are not “blank” inside. Yet because matter cannot account for this, I believe that the soul is that which separates a genuine living thing from a “P Zombie.” The soul is that which enables us to have “Qualia”. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

You see, the problem with positing a soulless being is that there is absolutely no logical reason to believe that a soulless being, no matter how many complex brain patterns, emotion-emitting chemicals, or whatever else it had, would be any more “alive” on the inside than a highly advanced PC which was just following programming. The PC does not look out and “feel”. Any “emotions” of an AI are really just blind programming signals which are not being experienced by any actual “entity” on the inside. And indeed, if the material was all that a biological organism was, I find no convincing reason to think that biological organisms would be any different.

Think of this: All physical things are made of parts, and ultimately all different physical “things” are made of the same “stuff.” The same protons, neutrons and electrons that make up a speck of dust are simply combined in a different way and in a greater number to make up the physical human body. Ultimately, this means that physical things are a kind of collage: If looked at on the subatomic level, one could actually see that it was all the same (it’s all protons, neutrons, electrons, and energy) just in different arrangements. Yet a collage only appears to be anything meaningful because there is an observer to make sense of the collective “picture.” If the human entity were only a collage, however, what “observer” is making it appear to be more than a collection of protons, neutrons and electrons such as can be found in even the most basic matter? If there is no soul, there would be no such observer, and there should–by all logic–be no more real “life” inside of a human being than inside of a rock or a fancy computer; the human, though he would move and breathe and such, should be just as “blank” on “the inside” as a piece of paper…

Yet we know that the human being is NOT such. There is “life” in him that cannot be accounted for by matter alone. That life must be something not made of parts (or again, it would merely be like a collage). It must be something that therefore would not decompose. That life is what we call the “soul.”

Now, the Catholic concept of “soul” is more than just that (for example, the human soul has a “will”, and thus is what influences the brain so that it is not just blindly following chemical impulses and reactions like an A.I. would), and the full “self” is certainly not complete with a “soul” alone, which is why ultimately we are supposed to have bodies again after the last day; in the meantime, presumably, God empowers the souls in Heaven with a means of knowledge, experience, and action that does not require a body. But still, the basic premise remains that the soul is, at its most basic level, the “life” that simply cannot possibly be accounted for by matter as far as reason has ever permitted me to fathom. It simply cannot conceivably be made of lesser parts and, for that reason, is the one thing that would retain an existence of its own even IF everything else–body, mind, thoughts, experiences, emotions–disintegrated away.
So for me personally, the term “self” refers both to “the sum total of body, soul, personality, thoughts, use of will, etc.” AND simply “the soul”. The former is the fullness of the “self,” those things that we often mean when we use the word “identity”, without which the “self” would be rather incomplete (hence why we will be both body and soul in eternity), while the latter is the most basic and indivisible “core” (if you will) of the “self,” without which no self–complete nor incomplete–would exist at all.

I hope this is useful. 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
Consciousness! I am not the contents of my consciousness, I am consciousness. Just as I am not (for example) the concept 2+2=4, even when I am thinking that, I am not my personality,intellect or beliefs.
Isn’t consciousness a description of a state of mind?
 
If I may, this is a post that I wrote in response to a “What is a Soul?” thread. While that thread is asking about a soul, rather than “self,” I believe the answers to both questions are related and have some overlap.

So for me personally, the term “self” refers both to “the sum total of body, soul, personality, thoughts, use of will, etc.” AND simply “the soul”. The former is the fullness of the “self,” those things that we often mean when we use the word “identity”, without which the “self” would be rather incomplete (hence why we will be both body and soul in eternity), while the latter is the most basic and indivisible “core” (if you will) of the “self,” without which no self–complete nor incomplete–would exist at all.

I hope this is useful. 🙂

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
Extremely! I share your beliefs. 🙂

God bless
 
Isn’t consciousness a description of a state of mind?
For my part, I would say “yes and no.” We often use the word “consciousness” in the sense of “as opposed to unconsciousness.” However, I believe that witt is using the word in an alternate sense, mainly for want of a better one, to denote permanent, indestructible potential for consciousness. It is appropriate, in one sense, to go beyond saying “potential” and to simply call it “consciousness.” This is because it makes sense to believe that we are never truly unconscious, so much as that at certain times we lack anything toward which to aim our consciousness. When I am “unconscious,” for example, this doesn’t mean that my consciousness (or soul, if you will) is no longer active, but rather that–in the absence of brain function or higher brain function–no stimuli are being presented to that consciousness.

Let’s compare it to visual consciousness: If suddenly the room goes pitch black, it doesn’t mean that your visual consciousness (that is, your sight and ability to register it) has changed, it just means that it has nothing with which to work. But it still exists, right through the pitch blackness, such that the moment it is again given stimuli (when the lights come back on) it will get right back to working.

Consciousness, in and of itself, is like that, I believe. It never ceases–at least not once it has come into existence–it is indestructible. But at certain points in time, such as brain death, dreamless sleep, etc., it has lost its natural “stimuli,” much like being trapped in a pitch black room in the above example, and so it simply has nothing to be conscious of. This includes memory, which is why a person who has been unconscious doesn’t remember anything–it’s not that they (that is, their consciousness) ceased to be at that time, for that is impossible (I explain why I believe that to be impossible in my previous post’s quote), but rather that they were not accumulating “memories” during the “unconscious” state and therefore their consciousness, which remained unstimulated during that time, has no reason to “recollect” that time. Just like, in a pitch black room, you wouldn’t remember that something had moved just five feet in front of you during the blackout, but that doesn’t mean your eyesight/comprehension failed to exist at that time, it just means that you didn’t have the proper stimuli to register such an experience (and thus convert it into a memory).

For the record, I am not defending the notion that “consciousness” and “self” are synonymous, as I believe that the full self includes more than that…I do not support “mind/body” dualism that makes the body insignificant to the “self”…but I do believe that consciousness as I have described it above is a permanent and perhaps defining aspect of the soul; and the soul, while not “synonymous” with “self”, is the most essential “core” of “self” and the only part of the “self” that is totally constant and indestructible (whereas the body/thoughts/etc. may come and go or temporarily be destroyed). And I do not believe that the soul ever lacks “consciousness” as I have described it, it merely (sometimes) lacks anything at which to direct that consciousness.

I hope this makes sense. :o

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
Consciousness is not permanent, else there would be no unconsciousness or death.

ICXC NIKA
 
It is a profound question that first occurred to me when I saw the word printed large – and learned that when I went to THOSE pumps, no one would pump my gas. :hmmm:

Also it’s the “ish” I seem to have the biggest problem with. Whereas “Irish” … is no problem at all … at all. :shamrock2:

http://twebby.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/wondering_baby1.jpg

I think of it as the conglomeration of everything I am and have been. My “self” is on a never ending journey. Once in a womb, then as a toddler, next a young student mastering language, mathematics, reading and the laws of the civilized world. Learning the roles I’d been assigned: son, grandson, brother, big brother etc. And meeting the outside world.

My “self” is like a kaleidoscope of change. The same elements are there, but life happening to me creates new patterns. My self is emotional too. Ensconced in a body that hears lullabies, marches and raindrops on the roof. Sees boundless horizons and tiny spaces under the bed. Feels the security of a warm jacket just out of the dryer or the cold snap of a winter wind blasting.

The smell of coffee or fresh baked bread recalls childhood securities in my self sometimes. The taste of a familiar product one hasn’t had in awhile jogs other memories.

My self has learned about the world around it (and knows it is still quite ignorant of much).
And it has learned about the world to come, hints of which are all around us. And “It” or should I say “I” have learned about God. And how He came to Earth to live as one of us, and sacrifice His life so that we could live where we belong. With Him … and our loved ones … in heaven.

Tomorrow I will not be QUITE the same. But I will be me … my self.

And as we are all beneficiaries of so many people we can never pay back, we must
give the gift of ourselves to others whenever possible. Our best selves.

The gifts we share: be it music, hard work, helping a team do something great together, etc. are our “Thank you” to the rest of God’s world … and our brothers and sisters who -
even when they don’t know it – help us be MORE in our “new self” as we begin again each day.

People who affirm us, like those we worship with for example, give our “selves” a nice feeling and security. Company. Confidence.

People who challenge us can sometimes make us … great! Or at least a little better.

Since we are eternal beings made in the image and likeness of God … who will we be 100 years from now - outside the “womb” of planet earth? And will “years” even matter
in that new life?

And what is that “born again” self that Jesus speaks of?

We should celebrate everything the Lord has given us … but our busy agendas make us
procrastinate about that. Yet with His Holy Spirit within us … we will be our best selves. Full of love and mirrors of Him to those around us if we will let our “self” open to Jesus.

Just my thoughts at this time. 👋
A delightfully personal post! 🙂

The most insurmountable problem for materialists is:
Tomorrow I will not be QUITE the same. But I will be me … my self.
👍
 
A delightfully personal post! 🙂

The most insurmountable problem for materialists is:

👍
Thank you tonyrey.
Quote:
Tomorrow I will not be QUITE the same. But I will be me … my self.
This became clearer to me when I was talking with a Rabbi socially. He was explaining what he believed … and to me it sounded rather like Hindu reincarnation. When I said that he looked horrified and attempted to correct me … but when he did he left the idea that at death we would NOT be ourselves anymore (I don’t think that is the universal Jewish position, but this fellow is a “Rabbi”).

It got me to thinking about my “self” at age 5, age 19, and today. Certainly 5-year-old me was me. And I hope that Jesus saves “me” in the end too.

Being without a human body for a while will be a big change for “me” but my Catholic
faith assures me that it’s my “self” that will be judged (for receipt of rewards or … otherwise). :hmmm:

I’m enjoying the intellectual colloquy here too, but thought I’d change up my presentation
to the personal a bit. Glad you enjoyed it. 🙂
 
Consciousness is not permanent, else there would be no unconsciousness or death.

ICXC NIKA
Again, here this presumes the (common and useful) definition of “Consciousness” as “being conscious TO/OF something” whether that’s the natural or spiritual world, etc. That is not the way that witt was using the word, nor is it the way that I in my own posts use the word, and in fact the word “consciousness” is only being used for lack of a better word.

To be unconscious does not mean that you are suddenly no more “conscious” than a rock. It means that you no longer have anything of which to be conscious (stimuli, which are normally generated through the brain–although in Heaven, pre-resurrection-day, it would seem that the souls have some other means of being conscious of things).

Again, it’s the same way that in a dark room you might be described as “blind” because there is no light to enter your eyes, but that doesn’t mean that your eyes have stopped working or that your sense of sight is “nonexistent” at that moment. We understand if you say a person in a pitch black room is [effectively] blind, you do not meant that his sight isn’t working, but rather that in the absence of stimuli (in this case, light) his sight has nothing to behold.

That is what I mean by saying that “consciousness” is permanent…like the person’s sense of sight in a pitch black room, the consciousness hasn’t “ceased to be” but has rather ceased to have anything to “behold” during brain-death or dreamless sleep. Just as we might say that a person in a dark room is “blind”, but without meaning that his sense of sight has actually “ceased to exist” (as is proven by the fact that as soon as the lights are turned on, he will again see, which he wouldn’t if his sense of sight had truly failed him) so too when a brain-dead person, or a person dreamlessly sleeping, is said to be “unconscious” it does not inherently indicate that his/her “consciousness” has “ceased to be” (temporarily or otherwise), just that it currently lacks any stimuli to act as its object.

Again, though, I admit that “consciousness” is not the best word for this, due to the confusion it causes when compared to “unconsciousness” etc. The better word, perhaps, but one that is not so common, is “Qualia,”(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia) which–if I were to paraphrase–might be described as “potential consciousness” which is indeed constant in the same way that you might say a man in a pitch black room may not technically have “sight” in that darkness, but he constantly has “potential sight” the entire time, which never goes away just because the room happens to be totally dark, and which is why the moment he has light again, he sees…if his “potential sight” had ceased to be because the room was dark, then even when the light was turned on again, he wouldn’t see.

Just the same, a man’s Qualia (potential consciousness) hasn’t ceased to exist just because he is brain dead or literally dead…it just has no object upon which to act, just as a man’s “sight” has no object on which to act in a pitch dark room.

Qualia is permanent by the mere fact that it’s not something that can be accounted for by brainwaves and such, as those things are composed of matter, while qualia is not something that can be accounted for by being “made of parts.” And whatever is not “made of parts” cannot decompose (since decomposing means to come apart), and therefore must be constant/permanent. Therefore I believe that Qualia (which is what witt meant by Consciousness, I do believe, and is what I have meant by it) is indeed a constant/permanent thing. The soul will always have Qualia (the potential for consciousness) for as long as it exists, even when the body is braindead, even when actual death strikes. I believe that is what distinguishes a soul from being the spiritual equivalent of a rock or a grain of sand or otherwise dead matter. I go into more detail on the importance of Qualia to that distinction in Post# 172.

One more qualifier that must be made is that even “potential” consciousness doesn’t quite describe Qualia…because qualia is never “dormant” nor merely “potential”…it’s always there, as it does not “decompose”, and so in that sense the word “potential” is misleading. It’s simply the best word I can come up with to grant that sometimes there’s nothing of which to be conscious; but even then (and I think this is an important exception), when there is nothing else of which to be conscious, there is still the pure, indescribable, wordless, thoughtless, emotionless, memory-free fact of one’s own existence. Consciousness of that fact always exists, I believe, and that’s why I believe that in that sense “consciousness always exists” and is not merely “potential consciousness.” But to ONLY be conscious of one’s own existence, without being conscious at the same time of ANY thoughts, words, emotions, memories, sensory perceptions, etc. to make sense of it, is such an incomprehensible state to the human mind (which relies on those other things in order to communicate/conceive) that I understand why using the word “consciousness” for that state could be confusing. And indeed, it would be a different sort of “consciousness” than any we no how to explain or describe.

It’s hard to explain, because there aren’t many words for it. Even “qualia” fails to some extent if only because it’s not a familiar enough word to instantly conjure up that which it entails. But hopefully I’m not completely failing, despite the limits of language. :o

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul
 
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