What radical step should be taken to restart the movement for christian unity

[commenter]

Some Mainline denominations are considering new books to the NT Canon. In 10 years, you may see children studying the Gospel of Thomas, you know, the one right before the Gospel of Mathew; with equal authority. People who want a bigger role for women are adding the Gospel of Mary, and other books that support what they want to do. These books are not being added in an appendix, but mixed in with the “traditional” 27. It’s a very small process now, and they will still continue respecting those who are attached to the “traditional” 27 book NT. They are not - yet - officially dropping those uncomfortable books or chapters, like those sections from Paul or Jesus, which refer to Hell, demons, the role of men and women, etc. But eventually I think they will.

In 20 years there will be many different NT canons floating around. You may quote the Gospel of John to teach someone, but they may say it isn’t in their Bible. They quote the Gospel of James instead.

The book “A New New Testament” has support from Mainline leaders. But other canons will also arise. Those who cling to the “traditional 27” NT books will be labelled fundamentalists or rigid conservatives, as compared to those who accept compassionate or “living” New Testament canons.

Consider how all this impacts on ecumenism.

 

[po18guy]

The core beliefs are not aligned. Catholicism has a sense of supernatural realities that is absent in mainline Protestantism. That foundation connects to the way we view the Magisterium, sexuality, absolutes of true/false, right/wrong, the sacraments, dogma, and other things. That sense of permanency,supernaturally based, is simply not present in mainline Protestantism today. Catholicism tries to adapt its strategy to apply unchanging beliefs to a changing world. Mainline Protestantism adapts it beliefs.

Excellent point on the supernatural. Fr. John Hardon, S.J. (R.I.P.) mentioned that you will never hear the term “supernatural” used in the protestant world. Since the German rebellion rejected the very structure and function of the Church (both Catholic and Orthodox), its beliefs are actually widely divergent. As a practical matter, the fairly recent accord on justification amounts to little more than agreeing that Christ is Lord, IMO.

What we are seeing from those outside the Catholic Church seems to stem from a desire that the Catholic Church abandon immutable truths for the sake of consensus. This, of course, can and will never happen. Pride and ego have always lead to division both in heaven and on earth), and only the virtue of humility will lead to unity, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Unity is very good to work for, but I believe that it will occur mostly when the world is coming to its end and the blood is flowing like rivers. That does not mean that we stop working toward it - what it means is that much good on this earth will not be done as we spend so much time and energy fighting internecine wars.

 

[po18guy]

Some Mainline denominations are considering new books to the NT Canon. In 10 years, you may see children studying the Gospel of Thomas, you know, the one right before the Gospel of Mathew; with equal authority. People who want a bigger role for women are adding the Gospel of Mary, and other books that support what they want to do. These books are not being added in an appendix, but mixed in with the “traditional” 27. It’s a very small process now, and they will still continue respecting those who are attached to the “traditional” 27 book NT. They are not - yet - officially dropping those uncomfortable books or chapters, like those sections from Paul or Jesus, which refer to Hell, demons, the role of men and women, etc. But eventually I think they will.

In 20 years there will be many different NT canons floating around. You may quote the Gospel of John to teach someone, but they may say it isn’t in their Bible. They quote the Gospel of James instead.

The book “A New New Testament” has support from Mainline leaders. But other canons will also arise. Those who cling to the “traditional 27” NT books will be labelled fundamentalists or rigid conservatives, as compared to those who accept compassionate or “living” New Testament canons.

Consider how all this impacts on ecumenism.

Distilled to its essence, this is simply a case of the exception proving the rule. Paul wisely wrote that factions must exist so that those who were approved might be made known.

The utter licentiousness that arose from the rebellion has blossomed into such aberrations as the Westboro Baptists and other radical (and fundamentally anti-Christian) groups. With no authority to make binding pronouncements in the protestant realm, mainline denominations can only disagree, with no practical effect. Individual commmunities are free to decide on doctrine according to the desires of their egos - and adding gnostic books and other fables is clear evidence of that.

It is theological entropy.

 

[po18guy]

Yes we should follow the example of Jesus when He negotiated with the disciples that left Him over a hard teaching…oh wait…

 

[po18guy]

I agree with Mystophilus

There has to be a negotiation.

You have both feet planted firmly.

On the slippery slope.

If this is the position that the spirit has lead you to hold, I can guarantee you that it is not the Holy Spirit.

Word.

 

[schaeffer]

Jesus already did the one and only radical thing that can unite all Christians.

Either everyone gets on board or they don’t.

The idea that there is something people can do now to unite Christians comes off as presumptuous.

If Christ is indeed the hub of the wheel, seems like it’s ready to roll.

If people are not united in Christ it’s going to be an awfully bumpy ride.

Take human pride and desire to be “right” out of the center of things.

I’m not taking sides because there ARE no sides, unity is a circle.

 

[commenter]

the core beliefs of the mainline Protestants and the Rroman Catholic church really are aligned-it is the issue of human sexuality and the issue of authority that will for ever keep us from real Unity

There is nothing to suggest that any movement is in the offing-I could think of a few good things that may point the way-it will take someone to make a radical move-ANY THOUGHTS? some I have heard…
any others?

In a way, you missed the biggest one of all. You suggest Catholics ordain women as deacons, but no more Protestant women priests. But what about adding books to the New Testament? Are you going to tell the UCC to stop encouraging congregations to add the new books when their own president is part of the process that “added” the new books? How are you going to stop Episcopal dioceses from “ordaining” women? Regardless of denominational agreements, they don’t accept the pope’s authority to veto new priests (or new gospels, for that matter). National agreements don’t stop the Gospel of Thomas from being used at congregational services as if it was Scripture.

Would they try to work out a similar compromise, like “you can’t add new gospels, but you can add new epistles”?

 

[Bodhi303]

Ah…I see. Guess it wasnt discussion and negotiation that led to Vatican Council II. Cause that’s what it seemed to take, I could be wrong, it seemed to take prayer and dialogue, and lets face it bickering and compromise. I’d like to think the Holy Spirit won that bout against our egos and innate fear of change.

 

[SteveVH]

Ah…I see. Guess it wasnt discussion and negotiation that led to Vatican Council II. Cause that’s what it seemed to take, I could be wrong, it seemed to take prayer and dialogue, and lets face it bickering and compromise. I’d like to think the Holy Spirit won that bout against our egos and innate fear of change.

Do you assume that each and every denomination and/or individual has the authority to bind and loose? Do you assume that each and every denomination and/or individual is led by the Holy Spirit into all truth? One thing Vatican II did not attempt to do was to change Catholic doctrine. That is exactly what you are proposing.

 

[phil19034]

There has to be a negotiation. And in any good negotiation everyone walks away feeling like they didn’t get fully what they wanted or demanded. Just some of it. can’t negotiate with God’s Truth. Anglican Ordinariates are the model to follow.

We’d have to be motivated not by politics and dogma, but by love of Christ. dogma is divine, not man made.

1. Protestants would need to accept the Eucharist
2. The Catholic Magesterium would need to accept that although God doesn’t change because we are imperfect, The Holy Spirit always corrects us and helps us grow deeper and WE can change. His ways are above our ways. Therefore, an old dog can learn new tricks. I don’t know what this means. If you look over the 2000 year history of the Church, it has changed. Organic, wholesome change takes time. The Church is 2000 years old. It can’t change multiple times within a lifetime. It must be organic & truly inspired by God, not on generational fads.
3. The Papacy would need to remain, but have a sort of “Knights of the Round Table” with leaders of other denominations that have been turned into different Orders in line to be possible successors too. There is no reason to force them back to the Roman Rite. Most likely would have their own Rites, similar to the Eastern Catholics and the Anglican Ordinariates. Would have own liturgy, hierarchy, customs, etc; with full Truth.
4. Women ordained to Deacon & Nuns given Deacon level responsibilities . **Women can never become ordained Deacons. However, there is no reason the Church couldn’t give Nuns more responsibility inside the Church, if an order of nuns would like to do that. There has been talk about the ancient, un-ordained role of Deaconess, but that role isn’t needed (their role was to baptize women who were naked back in the days when adults were baptized naked and fully immersed in the water). The only thing I could see a Deaconess doing would be education roles and perhaps dress in Choir functioning as an acolyte. In reality, the only thing the an unordained or “minor order” deaconess would solve would be eliminating street clothes from the sanctuary without eliminating women from the sanctuary.

Let’s also keep in mind, that if you are talking about full unity, the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Church of the East would also have to agree. Their position on female ordination is just the same as the Catholics (though some believe that the deaconess may have been “ordained” the same way a sub-deacon was “ordained,” which means not really ordained, but just using the word instead of using the word “installed,” which is what the Catholic Church uses today for Installated Acolytes and Installated Lectors. **

1. Celibacy within a vocation would need to be a personal choice not a requirement. Married men are allowed to become priests in the Catholic Church; just not typically in the Roman Rite. There are many married Eastern Catholic priests. Celibacy is a discipline of the Roman Rite, not of the entire Catholic Church. As their own Rite, they could allow married men to become priests. But unmarried priests can’t get married.

The insignificant/lighter considerations
6) Catholic music has to be revised. Protestants come to church to celebrate God, not just meditate on God. Somebody call Whoopi BUT please Evangelicals a band is more than tambourines and a drummer! with their own Rite, this isn’t an issue.

1. Evangelicals Southern Baptists & Pentecostals would have to stop saying “Amen” at the end of every sentence (thats just a personal request ) with their own Rite, this isn’t an issue.
2. Bible Study/Sunday School…for everyone!! Especially into adulthood. Yes! Im pointing at you Latin Catholics (stereotypes are born from somewhere…cuz its true I really do like fried chicken hot sauce and grape soda)
   (My attempts to bring some levity to a heavy topic )

It would be an UGLY process… but to make Christ smile, wouldn’t it be worth it?
HUMILITY CHARITY & PRAYER would be the starting point to this process. We’d ALL be required to see our beliefs as a reflection of our egos as much as it is a reflection of Christ, Then sort out ego from truth.

IF we are all united as one Church, the integrity of God’s message would skyrocket. THEN. When WE speak on a topic, fully united. The world would know, its not US talking on the issue…Its GOD! Without this unity NONE OF US have any integrity in what we say. We are all reduced to good people who like the sound of our own politics.

I too would be on board fully and totally to making Christ’s prayer come true, since he works so hard to make mine come true.

Our new Name should be…(((drum roll)))

"The First Orthodox Catholic Assembly of the United Apostolic Church of Christ" **
aka the FOCAUACC ** Let’s just stick with name we have had since the 1st century. The Holy Catholic Church of Christ.

I’m going to make comments to your comments above in bold.

 

[Peter_J]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J
Does it have to be non-violent?

But joking and super exaggerations aside, I think the first (sub-)question here is this: Should we double (or triple, quadruple, etc) are efforts to convert them? (Of course, we can’t really discuss that in front of you, since your in the “them” category. )

 

[Bodhi303]

I’m going to make comments to your comments above in bold.

Agreed Phil 19034 change must be organic and take time. Slow gradual process is the way the Holy Spirit always works. And if this process ever got off the ground it would absolutely be inspired by the Holy Spirit. And a 1500year delay in total unification would fully qualify as slow(I’d hope)

However, I would not categorize my motiviation as a generational fad. This is Christ’s prayer that I’d want to answer for him. For me its not something trendy its more a loving act of gratitude. I just sincerly believe just to get people to the table will take humility on everyone’s part. And whatever fruit that would’ve yeilded from this supposed “Council of London” (lets say) would be the Will of God. Because just getting people to the table would take an act of God.

Sadly based on the avalanche of critiques my post received getting people to the table will never happen. And that’s disappointing. I don’t care how many well thought out, eloquent, and (most likely) rehearsed rebuttals someone throws my way…its just a huge disappointment. And Im not disappointed for me. Im disappointed for Christ.
I had a little bit of hope when I saw reports of the Pope opening up discussion with the Orthodox Church and Pentecostals. But Que Sera…

Though we didn’t fully agree Phil19034 I appreciate the charity in your response. Thank you very much and God bless.

 

[Mystophilus]

We are not talking sports teams here. We are speaking of God’s revealed truth. It matters not one whit to the truth if someone does not believe it.

Of course, since that is what each and every faith group believe, it merely reinforces the current disunity.

 

[Mystophilus]

The core beliefs are not aligned. Catholicism has a sense of supernatural realities that is absent in mainline Protestantism. That foundation connects to the way we view the Magisterium, sexuality, absolutes of true/false, right/wrong, the sacraments, dogma, and other things. That sense of permanency,supernaturally based, is simply not present in mainline Protestantism today.

Sorry, but no. A considerable proportion of Protestants today have a very strong sense of a permanent, supernatural, absolute truth to their faith. This includes everything from Anglicans who believe in a Real Presence in the Eucharist to the Word of Faith types who believe that they can move mountains by speaking.

 

[Stilldreamn]

But joking and super exaggerations aside, I think the first (sub-)question here is this: Should we double (or triple, quadruple, etc) are efforts to convert them? (Of course, we can’t really discuss that in front of you, since your in the “them” category. )

By all means go right ahead! Lutherans are sort of low-hanging fruit on the heresy tree anyway.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Does it have to be non-violent?

Ha, the human race knows no other way apparently. And when I know its a problem the sinner I am, then its a major problem. We need a refresher class with required participation by everyone.

The first order is being together in person. That alone can’t be accomplished without great difficulty imho. The personal interaction appears to be an issue and rightfully so due to the last 50-years with technology. No one wants to concede when they are wrong. And the Catholics as we know are always right till we reach theological speculation. Then they can’t be proven wrong.

 

[Cat]

Good thread.

Here’s my suggestion. Read the book Being the Body by Charles Colson. It was one of the five main reasons that I became Catholic.

My husband and I were Evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of our lives before converting to Catholicism in 2004.

My answer to the OP is “prepare to die.”

A radical step HAS been taken by two brave individuals. Charles Colson (R.I.P.) and Father Richard John Neuhaus (R.I.P.) started the organization, “Evangelicals and Catholics Together,” and got hundreds of Catholic and Protestant leaders to sign showing their support.

Both of them faced tremendous opposition from certain camps in their respective religions. In the Protestant world, a major opponent to ECT was (and still is) J.I. Packer. This man is a big gun for Protestants, and he is utterly opposed to Catholicism and any involvement by Protestant with Catholics.

Another powerful opponent is R.C. Sproul, the great Reformed apologist and writer/speaker. My husband is a fan of Rev. Sproul, who always seems to be correct when he describes Catholic theology. Many Protestant apologists get Catholicism wrong every time, but not Rev. Sproul. I would love to see Tim Staples debate him. It would be a tough fight for both men.

But some powerful Evangelical Protestant leaders signed on with ECT, including Dr. Bill Bright (R.I.P,) the founder and president of Campus Crusade for Christ.

The group Evangelicals and Catholics Together hammered out a document on justification, a major difference between Evangelical Protestants and Catholics. Many Protestants and Catholics signed the document.

Notice that after the names of the Protestants involved with ECT, I wrote R.I.P. Yes, the two leaders of ECT are dead. Colson was 80 and Neuhaus was 72, so perhaps their time on this earth was truly over. I do believe that God does not allow anyone to die unless it is their time.

But why? And why Bill Bright?

Before they died, Father Neuhaus and Colson were working hard to get the Orthodox on board. They wanted to change the name of the organization to Evangelicals, Catholics, and Orthodox Together.

I think that the work done by these men was not popular with Satan and his demons.

Take the book I cited above, Being the Body. You won’t find this book in Catholic bookstores because it’s written by a Protestant and espouses Protestant theology. But it’s hard to find this book in Protestant bookstores, either, because it praises the Catholic Church as a TRUE Christian church, and praises Pope John Paul II giving him credit (and God, of course) for bringing down the Soviet Union.

Like I said, Satan does NOT want the Catholics and Protestants to get together, so he continues to encourage squabbling and fighting between them. We need to get over that and stop Satan. This book is excellent, and SHOULD be in Catholic bookstores, and ECT speakers SHOULD be invited to speak at Catholic conferences and in Catholic parishes, as well as at Evangelical Protestant conferences and churches.

It seems that since the death of the leaders, ECT has slipped way off the radar. Score one for Satan.

But is the game over?

**Once again, I say, “Prepare to die.” Christian unity would be a mighty force for the Lord Jesus and His Church in this world, and Satan and all his minions will do anything and everything to prevent that from happening. **

Read that book. That can be your first “radical step.”

 

[commenter]

Sorry, but no. A considerable proportion of Protestants today have a very strong sense of a permanent, supernatural, absolute truth to their faith. This includes everything from Anglicans who believe in a Real Presence in the Eucharist to the Word of Faith types who believe that they can move mountains by speaking.

The OP was referring to Mainline denominations. Belief in the supernatural is still strong in evangelical and pentacostal churches, and in that percent of mainline that believes in the Real Presence, for instance. If someone (still) believes in the Real Presence, but now accepts the secular culture on abortion, I wouldn’t call them supernaturalists.

C. S. Lewis proposed an alliance between those who are traditional-sacramental and evangelicals, to oppose the liberals who did not yet dominate mainline denominations.
I don’t think he foresaw that many churches then apparently solidly evangelical, and safe to partner with, would slide away from absolute truth, towards liberalism or morph into these recent non-denominational, non doctrinal churches based mainly on feeling content.

That’s the dilemma. If you want to partner with someone, you not only have to judge how compatible they are now, but you also see other churches that recently were like them, with the same traditions and governance structures, that changed rapidly and unpredictably.

 

[Mystophilus]

The OP was referring to Mainline denominations.

Which group, since it includes Presbyterians, Methodists, Anglicans, Baptists, Anglicans, Lutherans, contains precisely the people whom I mentioned: those with a very strong sense of a permanent, supernatural, absolute truth to their faith. As for Word of Faith, they do appear within so-called “mainline” groups, too.

If someone (still) believes in the Real Presence, but now accepts the secular culture on abortion, I wouldn’t call them supernaturalists.

There is no simple correlation between rejection of abortion and belief in the supernatural. I have met plenty of Protestants who believe that anyone who is aborted is necessarily sinless and thus goes straight to Heaven.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

the core beliefs of the mainline Protestants and the Rroman Catholic church really are aligned-it is the issue of human sexuality and the issue of authority that will for ever keep us from real Unity

There is nothing to suggest that any movement is in the offing-I could think of a few good things that may point the way-it will take someone to make a radical move-ANY THOUGHTS? some I have heard

1. Pope revokes the excommuniction of Martin Luther
2. Protestants accept the Bishop of Rome as first among equals
3. Catholics ordain women to the Deaconate
4. the Church of England and the Church of Ireland gives back all the big Cathederals to the Roman Catholics
5. Catholic Bishops attend and ordain Anglican male Priests (in lieu of the Polish Pat or the Dutch touch)
   TEC and Anglican Curches & Luthreans condemn abortion
   no further female ordinations -put them on hold

any others?

My old (Protestant) pastor made the comment about (approved) Marian apparitions that “I think they’re a judgement on a divided church”, and “There’s been a lot of them.”

To get the churches back together, I think she would have to play a role. It’s an enigmatic fact for example that during exorcisms, demons will blaspheme anybody and everybody - the victim, the exorcising priest, witnesses, other people, the bishop, the Pope, and even God and Christ.

But never Mary. It’s an enigma. Frankly I think God has told the devil He will not allow him to blaspheme her, or else! So the Protestants need to start accepting her for a start.

If you had a capable enough Catholic statesman, I think a lot of ground could be covered. I also think that rather than all the Protestant denominations having to be absorbed into the Catholic Church wholesale, I don’t see why they couldn’t retain some aspects of their own traditions. Reformed could remain Reformed in outlook, since the fact is that none of us know how or why God chooses the “Elect”. Baptists could remain “Baptist” with an insistence on baptism by immersion. The Salvation Army could retain their emphasis on service to others etc.

But they would have to agree to the core fundamentals - the full meaning of and participation in the Eucharist, the Trinity, the role of the Magisterium, and in particular the role of the Pope. I can tell you now that will be the hardest and final hurdle.

And an unmistakable public appearance by Mary would make a big difference.