What Role Do Catholics Play in Combatting Rape Culture?

[Alex337]

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I was never, ever, specifically told not to rape. I imagine this was the same for literally millions of Catholic boys.

I think you are right.

My parents never told me “do not murder”. It was simply part of the literal Christian fabric of our lives.

But it had to come up if you learned the 10 commandments. Even most examination of conscience aids don’t include rape.

If you didn’t know that rape was evil [and yes, even if NOBODY told you that], then there’s something wrong with your mindset

They didn’t say they didn’t know rape was evil, just that nobody specifically said that.

There are lots of reasons rape wouldn’t be talked about at all or effectively. Some parents don’t talk about sexuality at all or effectively. Subjects like rape, dating violence, and domestic violence are subjects a lot of people shy away from or once the topic is addressed, that’s it, and the subject is avoided.

Hebrew doesn’t have a word for rape, becsuse it wss the thing so terrible it could’s be named; so it’s not a big mystery to me why people don’t talk about it. The answer to the OP is that Catholics have to talk about it

 

[JimG]

What I wish I’d been told as a young adult was how to spot a bad man who was acting like a good man. So for example, I wish I’d been told I had a right to avoid associating with men who treated me disrespectfully. If a guy keeps pushing past where I didn’t want to go, I shouldn’t keep telling him no, I should drop him.

I can understand that you wish there had been a more specific warning. Yet it puzzles me that anyone would think that one has a duty to continue associating with someone who treats you disrespectfully.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

DarkLight, I hope you don’t mind if I link this.
JimG, to your question:

Things I learned from feminism I wish I'd learned from Christianity Family Life

Mind, I certainly don’t agree with everything modern feminism teaches. I also, full disclaimer, grew up in a very conservative segment of protestantism. So about as isolated from feminism as you get in the modern west (not quite, but still). There’s a lot of things I’d wished I’d learned though, that I didn’t get until I was halfway through college and starting to get involved with feminism. Consent. A lot of people seemed to think that “no sex outside of marriage” obviated any need to ta…

 

[JimG]

Easy: yes. If the person, male or female, unable to give consent due to intoxication it is rape.

So, if a man has sex with an intoxicated woman, he is guilty of rape.
If a woman has sex with an intoxicated man, she is guilty of rape.
If an intoxicated man and an intoxicated woman have sex with each other both are guilty of rape.

 

[DarkLight]

It’s more that we were kind of taught that “boys will be boys.” So it’s not that I thought I had a duty to continue associating with someone who behaved that disrespectfully, it’s that I’d been given the idea that any man who was attracted to me would behave that way, because that’s just how men were and it wasn’t reasonable to expect better. If you wanted to get married you just had to put up with that and keep saying no until he agreed to the wedding.

This isn’t an uncommon report among women raised in more conservative areas. A strong focus on male headship combined with something of a boys will be boys attitude gives women the idea that they can’t expect a man to treat them respectfully. There’s no sense leaving a man for that if that’s what you’ve learned to expect from men.

 

[Alex337]

Try it this way; if a person had sex with someone who was unable to consent then that is rape.

 

[JimG]

Thanks for the fuller explanation from DarkLight both above and in the link. It explains much. I grew up in a somewhat earlier time when a man who disrespected a woman was apt to be subject to a forceful slap.

 

[DarkLight]

I’m not sure these times are as different as you think. Remember most of us talking about this model come from very conservative communities - you won’t see it in more modern or liberal ones. I’ve also seen the same complaint from women older than I am, that they were taught the exact same model.

Keep in mind too that sort of man isn’t explicitly disrespectful. It doesn’t present as calling her nasty names. It presents as “you’re so beautiful, I just can’t help myself around you.” Or as laughing and joking when a woman brings up her values and boundaries. And it pretty much never happens when other men are paying attention. It’s hidden in soft words, in praise and talking about how beautiful and wonderful the woman is and how much they want to take care of her.

 

[JimG]

Okay, but soft words and praises won’t hide a boundary violation that a woman has already set. If she doesn’t want him pushing any further and has made herself clear, a good slap will emphasize the point.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

And if the slap causes it to escalate…? I think a slap only works if you come from the right family or know the right people otherwise there are just going to be rumors that haunt you until you leave town. Or in movies.

 

[JimG]

Well, it doesn’t have to be slap. If a guy is being a jerk, drop him. It seems that wasn’t happening because women were being told that all men are jerks, so no point in dropping them. But that’s wrong.

Edited to add: and maybe men were being trained by women to think that they could be jerks and get away with it.

 

[Alex337]

Also some men don’t take no for an answer like that. I once told a fellow no and he went into a big rant about how a woman shouldn’t shatter a man’s hopes like that, that it’s rude and cruel. I was a teenager and the guilt trip was bad.

I told another man no and he loudly shouted that I was a… less than pleasant term and got right up in my face about it.

 

[DarkLight]

Well yes. But the point is we aren’t born recognizing jerkish behavior - it’s something we have to learn to recognize, especially if the man isn’t being obvious about it. And as @Alex337 is pointing out, a lot of times the opposite is also a problem. Women are taught that continuing to insist on your own boundaries makes you a “female dog,” and you shouldn’t be mean like that.

 

[Alex337]

I think it also has to do with boys being taught that women “play hard to get” and that it’s romantic to continue to pursue them. Just look at all the media where the girl clearly says no, but in reality all she needed was for the boy to keep trying, to maybe do some dramatic gesture, and he’ll be rewarded.

 

[blackforest]

But now it seems, even the most basic aspects of morality must be spelled out in detail. And that is part of the problem.

You’re venturing into an interesting idea here. I’m looking at remarkably different cultures with a rape problem, such as Afghanistan, China, and of course the U.S.

Are we (not you personally) starting to see why it’s simplistic to blame just one factor? “It’s Islam’s fault.” “It’s immodesty’s fault.” These explanations just don’t cut it.

I can’t let go of my idea that where drastically different cultures have a rape problem, they must have some bizarre factors in common.

Bridging on what you said about morality needing to be spelled out to people, could rape culture basically be entitlement culture? Is it a culture that creates people - usually men in this case - to covet, convince themselves that they deserve it, and then pursue what they want even at someone else’s expense?

This is certainly the mentality underlying aggressive warfare.

 

[Rozellelily]

Sorry but I completely disagree with that reasoning.
Sexual pleasure being exercised at will may lead to people sleeping around or even people (unfortunately) cheating on their spouse but it doesn’t lead to rape.
Rape has to involve the complete disregard and disrespect of the other person.
It completely violates their “personhood” and their wishes and feelings.

It’s ok if you find issues in US etc culture that often promotes over sexualization culture (many music clips etc) and belittle chastisty,but to put it in the same category as rape and to draw no distinctions is a bit concerning.

According to this sort of reasoning,countries that place the highest emphasis on modest dress, and have high restrictions placed on citizens against viewing certain things (eg:certain internet sites,even covering ads with women wearing singlet tops etc) should be the safest countries for women with the lowest rape statistics but why are we finding this isn’t the case?

 

[SnowRose]

Are you suggesting that rape within marriage is a lesser evil than rape outside a marriage?

 

[Rozellelily]

Here,some people in the media,including a minister (government worker) have recently said they want an “enthusiast yes” to be made part of the law,similar to the affirmative permission idea that you mentioned.
While I understand how they came to this thinking, and it is tragic because their thinking was “inspired” by the case involving a womans horrific “experience” with a man (Luke Lazarus),I personally not sure if I agree with this as it is unrealistic and removes the human factors out of sex and reduces it to an act.

In one way the law suggestion is in good light and with good motives because rape victims need to feel heard and justice in instances when they may have “frozen” and not felt they had a voice to say no.To just have their traumatic experience dismissed is wrong and terrible.
On the other hand, this type of speech expectations it is not realistic to the majority of other “everyday people” who are reasonable.
Would such a law in anyway affect them negatively?

We need to find ways to help women avoid becoming rape victims,and get healing,but also balancing it with reality.
Personally I would not want to have sex with anyone who said to me matter of factly “so,do you definitely want to have sex with me” “I need to get a clear yes before we proceed” “ok,now just to clarify,please give me an enthusiastic yes” etc…it just all seems so unnatural,robotic and weird and not part of most people’s speech.

I think it’s more important and produces “more fruit” we just teach men to respect women,teach them to be caring men and view women as having feelings and not just as objects of beauty or see them just sexually,teach them the horrible feelings and trauma it causes to a woman to be raped,disencourage vulgar talk about women and footy “boofhead” mentalities,and teach them to be courageous and not go along with the crowd when in the presence of other men being vulgar to women.

Parents also need to model behaviour to their children.
I wonder what sort of behaviour was Luke Lazarus parents modelling to him to make him see women in this “base” self serving sexual way and interpret the situation how he did?
Supporting him in court may be natural/expected off a parent but they looked so happy when he was acquitted.
Is that just their public face of relieve but at home they were expressing to him their real feelings or do they actually support their son in his mentality?
Maybe the parents hold some responsibility if they are enabling their son/s in their mentality?
There is saying sometime that apple doesn’t fall far from the tree…

'Enthusiastic yes': NSW announces review of sexual consent laws

Pru Goward, the minister for the prevention of sexual assault, says NSW should move in the direction of Tasmania's tough sexual consent laws.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Bruised_Reed]

but rape which happens outside of marriage, with persons known or unknown is sex outside of marriage.

Rape is not sex. It’s not an intimate act. It’s violence to the body, mind,and spirit. Is it sex if one is an adult and one is a child?