What scriptural basis do we have for Fatima's divinity?

[kdganey1991]

Do we have anything in the Bible that would say that Mary appearing at Fatima was a real message of God?

These quotes make me second guess everything…

He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne.

My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God.

To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart…

Just the whole salvation through her makes me suspicious… or am I reading this wrong?

 

[Todd_Easton]

Though it doesn’t go into the specifics of the Fatima apparition, the article on “Private Revelation” in the online Catholic Encyclopedia does give some general guidelines the Church uses in determining whether or not such private revelations are from God. When dealing with Church approved private revelations it is important to remember what that approval entails, as the article says:
When the Church approves private revelations, she declares only that there is nothing in them contrary to faith or good morals, and that they may be read without danger or even with profit; no obligation is thereby imposed on the faithful to believe them.

 

[triumphguy]

I think you can live a very full and productive, and faithful, and spiritual, and orthodox Catholic life without ever having anything to do with Fatima.

I believe you could even have a very special devotion to Mary, and say the rosary daily in a very authentic way without having recourse to Fatima.

 

[kdganey1991]

Yeah, that’s what I’m happy about, I’m not REQUIRED to believe it.

 

[in_servitude]

Just the whole salvation through her makes me suspicious… or am I reading this wrong?

My understanding of all of this is that Mary is always pointing to Jesus. It’s always “through Mary to Jesus.”

When this comes up (the whole concept of asking for Mary’s help) I think about the wedding at Cana. Mary asks Jesus to fix the wine problem. He says, “It’s not my time, woman.” She seems to insist - and gets her way with her Son. This leads me to believe that if I ask Mary to go to her Son on my behalf, then it’s not exactly a source of evil. I hear it asked, “What kind of son doesn’t listen to the request of his mother?”

Fatima is very interesting to me because the time and place was printed in the news papers in advance. The dancing sun was witnessed by 70,000 people. So, it was supernatural - the only question is if it was from God or the evil one.

Since the message was all about compelling people to stick with Jesus, I (and the Church) think it was of divine origin. I can’t imagine why the evil one would be so interested in packing the pews.

 

[Della]

Yeah, that’s what I’m happy about, I’m not REQUIRED to believe it.

A very good book on the topic of apparitions is A Still Small Voice by Fr. Benedict Groeschel. He explains what the Church teaches about them. It’s a very easy to read book and very helpful. I recommend it highly.

But to answer your question, the Bible is full of examples of people receiving messages from God, including Mary. The difference is that any messages from seers are not part of divine revelation which ended with Jesus, because Jesus is The Word of God spoken into the world through Jesus’ Incarnation. There will be no more revelations from God.

Apparitions are considered private revelations that the Church rules one of three ways:

1. Approved as “worthy of belief”.
2. Not approved because nothing of a spiritual nature took place.
3. Meant only for the person who received it and not all the faithful.

It’s usually the local bishop who decides this. For instance, we had a gal in my parish who claimed to be receiving messages from Mary. Our bishop investigated and decided nothing spiritual had happened. The “seer’s” following quickly evaporated and nothing important came of it.

To understand the approved messages of Mary we need to know the circumstances and the persons to whom they were given and why. They can’t be taken out of context any more than Bible verses because doing so robs them of their proper perspective. I hope that helps.

 

[Julia_Mae]

This site has very good info, from there:

**Categories of Approval **

Official Church statements regarding the authenticity of apparition claims are placed into three categories:

Not Worthy of Belief

The statements to declare a private revelation false are given according to the Latin phrase: “Constat de non supernaturalitate” (It is established that there is nothing supernatural here) . It has been determined that there are no characteristics that show it to be from God thereby attributing it to fraud or another spirit.

Nothing Contrary to the Faith

When locally it is decided or suggested that the reported apparition might or might not be of supernatural origin, the apparition is assigned to the category of “Non constat de supernaturalitate” ( It is not established that something supernatural is here). Apparitions in this category do not enjoy approval of their supernatural character but are determined to contain nothing that is contrary to faith and morals.

Approved

The supernatural chracter of the apparition is declared worthy of belief (“Constat de supernaturalitate”) and contains nothing that is contrary to faith and morals. But belief in the apparition (even the true one) is not necessary for salvation.

When the Church finds something supernatural occurs, it’s Godly. It’s “preternatural” I believe if demonic.

 

[po18guy]

From the nature of your posts, I would advise you to remain focused on the basics of belief. In almost 2,000 years, an awful lot has developed. There can be many distractions along the path. Stay focused and as your depth of faith increases, these tangential concerns will fade into obscurity. In other words, do not be distracted by the frosting when the cake is what you really need.

 

[edwest2]

From Pope John Paul II:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_20000513_beatification-fatima_en.html

Peace,
Ed

 

[razredge]

Do we have anything in the Bible that would say that Mary appearing at Fatima was a real message of God?

These quotes make me second guess everything…

He wishes to establish the devotion to My Immaculate Heart throughout the world. I promise salvation to whoever embraces it; these souls will be dear to God, like flowers put by Me to adorn his throne.

My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God.

To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart…

Just the whole salvation through her makes me suspicious… or am I reading this wrong?

Yeah Fatima is extremely questionable for exactly the reasons you state, seems rather like something made up by someone wishing to exploit the excessive Marian devotion common at the time.

Why not ask to have Russia dedicated to Jesus’ heart? Why not Jesus’s heart as our refuge?

This and other dubious happenings (like Lucia claiming she saw the guardian angel of Portugal ) makes the whole affair quite fishy.

 

[po18guy]

Yeah Fatima is extremely questionable for exactly the reasons you state, seems rather like something made up by someone wishing to exploit the excessive Marian devotion common at the time.

Why not ask to have Russia dedicated to Jesus’ heart? Why not Jesus’s heart as our refuge?

This and other dubious happenings (like Lucia claiming she saw the guardian angel of Portugal ) makes the whole affair quite fishy.

I note that, even though it says “Catholic” you have trouble with various teachings on Mary. What does “Catholic” mean, if I might ask?

 

[razredge]

I note that, even though it says “Catholic” you have trouble with various teachings on Mary. What does “Catholic” mean, if I might ask?

Well it means ‘Catholic’, I assure you i’m not an undercover Protestant - though I do admit I find some of the Marian beliefs and practices many Catholics hold unnecessary and distracting.

 

[po18guy]

Well it means ‘Catholic’, I assure you i’m not an undercover Protestant - though I do admit I find some of the Marian beliefs and practices many Catholics hold unnecessary and distracting.

Frankly, I have been wondering about that aspect of your faith. Mary is a major problem with many converts as well as some cradle Catholics. She was a problem for me, but a scripture study, combined with the knowledge that all scripture relates to all other scripture, erased those concerns. If you are a reader, might I suggest Mary, Mother of the Son by Mark Shea? Yes, it is three books, but the first two will address your concerns. Your trust in the Church is hanging in the balance.

 

[Della]

Well it means ‘Catholic’, I assure you i’m not an undercover Protestant - though I do admit I find some of the Marian beliefs and practices many Catholics hold unnecessary and distracting.

What you seem to be missing or omitting is that it is the Church that decides if an apparition should be approved or not, not us as individuals. Our bishops have far more knowledge about what is acceptable devotion and what isn’t than most of us do. They consult theologians and investigate such things quite throroughly.

Indeed, those who claim to be seers are put through the wringer and must answer a lot of very probing questions. Frankly, I wouldn’t want to be in their position. St. Marie Bernard (Bernadette) said that Our Lady told her that she could not promise her happiness in this world but only in the next. And that prediction came painfully true for the saint. She was grilled by both civil and Church officials and questioned the remainder of her life. And that was just a part of all she went through. True mystics have no desire for attention or fame–they ususally just want to be left alone.

What I’m saying is that you need to understand the full context of the times, the people, and the circumstances under which these approved apparitions took place. Portugal was a persecuted country at the time. Bishops, priests and nuns had been arrested by the socialist government. Times were very hard. The three children were only peasants who knew nothing about world events or even why they were so poor. Mary, as God’s ambassador, came to give them both comfort and a challenge to amend their lives. Mary does more than pray, she acts for God as God directs her because she is alive and active, not dead and sleeping. All of us in the Body of Christ are called to be doing God’s will however he directs.

Devotion to her heart IS devotion to Christ because her heart belongs completely to him. It’s her her way of saying, I am with you, praying for you and acting on your behalf as God wishes me to. I find that a wonderful gift. Mary never takes worship away from God for we do not worship her–true devotion to her draws us to her Son because her whole life and being belong to him alone. I know as a convert that devotion to Mary has revealed Christ to me in such profound ways I cannot tell you how profound in words, but I know what it has done for my soul and my relationship with him–it’s immeasurably deepened it not taken anything away from it.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Yeah Fatima is extremely questionable for exactly the reasons you state, seems rather like something made up by someone wishing to exploit the excessive Marian devotion common at the time.

Why not ask to have Russia dedicated to Jesus’ heart? Why not Jesus’s heart as our refuge?

This and other dubious happenings (like Lucia claiming she saw the guardian angel of Portugal ) makes the whole affair quite fishy.

Really? So the fact of the Bishop’s official approval, the actions of Blessed Pope John Paul II are to be ignored because you, personally, believe its’ “fishy?” How about The Canonization of the visionaries?

You don’t have to believe anything, but now you are completely discarding the actions of the Ordinary and the Pope. I think they know more about this than you do. Also not sure why you’d roll your eyes at the idea that countries have guardian Angels. Do you think we don’t need them?

As I said, believe as you personally wish, but coming here and publicly attacking Bishops and Popes?

 

[Della]

Really? So the fact of the Bishop’s official approval, the actions of Blessed Pope John Paul II are to be ignored because you, personally, believe its’ “fishy?” How about The Canonization of the visionaries?

You don’t have to believe anything, but now you are completely discarding the actions of the Ordinary and the Pope. I think they know more about this than you do. Also not sure why you’d roll your eyes at the idea that countries have guardian Angels. Do you think we don’t need them?

As I said, believe as you personally wish, but coming here and publicly attacking Bishops and Popes?

I’d like to rise to his defense. He may not have thought of that aspect, but is only giving us his “gut” reaction, although our “guts” need to be informed as much as our brains before we make decisions about such things, yes?

razredge, while no one has to believe in any approved apparition, we must acknowledge the Church’s authority to decide if an apparition is approved or not. As Catholics we leave such decisions up to our bishops for the reasons I wrote about in my last post.

 

[razredge]

razredge, while no one has to believe in any approved apparition, we must acknowledge the Church’s authority to decide if an apparition is approved or not. As Catholics we leave such decisions up to our bishops for the reasons I wrote about in my last post.

I would think if one is free to disbelieve in an approved apparition then one is also free to doubt the validity of that apparition - otherwise why are we free to disbelieve it?

Really? So the fact of the Bishop’s official approval, the actions of Blessed Pope John Paul II are to be ignored because you, personally, believe its’ “fishy?” How about The Canonization of the visionaries?

There are lots of people who don’t believe in Fatima, the OP was pointing out some good reasons to doubt the validity of the apparition.

What you seem to be missing or omitting is that it is the Church that decides if an apparition should be approved or not, not us as individuals. Our bishops have far more knowledge about what is acceptable devotion and what isn’t than most of us do. They consult theologians and investigate such things quite throroughly.

Yes, however it would seem the Church is rather too eager to validate apparitions and miracles that have a large following and popular appeal. Witness how something as demonstrably false as Our Lady of Guadalupe was also approved.

Devotion to her heart IS devotion to Christ because her heart belongs completely to him. It’s her her way of saying, I am with you, praying for you and acting on your behalf as God wishes me to. I find that a wonderful gift. Mary never takes worship away from God for we do not worship her–true devotion to her draws us to her Son because her whole life and being belong to him alone. I know as a convert that devotion to Mary has revealed Christ to me in such profound ways I cannot tell you how profound in words, but I know what it has done for my soul and my relationship with him–it’s immeasurably deepened it not taken anything away from it.

Why not just ask to consecrate Russia/the world to her son’s sacred heart - I mean after all why would Mary want to hog the spotlight.

 

[in_servitude]

Yes, however it would seem the Church is rather too eager to validate apparitions and miracles that have a large following and popular appeal. Witness how something as demonstrably false as Our Lady of Guadalupe was also approved.

Please demonstrate! I have not heard this before (not that I’ve looked.)

My opinion is that the Church is not eager at all to approve these miracles. But, I may be wrong on that - I just haven’t seen the evidence to back that up.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I’d like to rise to his defense. He may not have thought of that aspect, but is only giving us his “gut” reaction, although our “guts” need to be informed as much as our brains before we make decisions about such things, yes? .

Fine with me, but that’s personal. It doesn’t excuse speaking with such disrespect about something found to be a manifestation from God by the Church.

 

[Julia_Mae]

I would think if one is free to disbelieve in an approved apparition then one is also free to doubt the validity of that apparition…

Do you not understand the difference between having an opinion and disrespecting the Church and Her Popes and Bishops? Do you believe you have some special knowledge greater than theirs? Possess a higher degree of holiness? Have more access to facts?

Something supernatural happened there, something that is a gift of God according to the Church. The Church does not say you have the right, typical Americanism, to disbelieve in that, but that it is not necessary for your salvation to accept the messages as reported by the visionaries. Respecting the findings of the Ordinary is required.