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perro_sarnoso
Guest
This is yet another example of the exclusion of the Magisterium of the church and Divine revelation. These are the other two parts of the whole authority which includes Sacred Scripture.
- Status
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pablope
Guest
po18guy
Well-known member
Well, the Church has been staring at Medjugorje now for 30 years. Not a peep. That one is very successful commercially.
In any event, testing apparitions is far simpler that, say promulgating doctrine, or declaring the canon of scripture. Fatima had, what, 30,000 witnesses, including secular media?
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pablope
Guest
Fatima has over 50,000.
But Medjogorje has much more…TV, media, newspaper, internet…and still not approval after 30 years…despite a lot of clamor for it…so the Church is pressured?
D
dailey
Guest
O Brother. With this comment, you make it so obvious your intent is just to rattle the cages.
S
stewstew03
Guest
Julia Mae, take it easy. There’s no reason to take razredge’s lack of belief in Fatima personally. Everyone has their own journey, and I think offering harsh criticism to someone who doesn’t share the same belief on something nonessential just puts them in a defensive posture (and misses any chance for real dialogue). We’re instructed, via 1 John 4, to “try the spirits if they be of God.”
Having said that, razredge, we shouldn’t be skeptical to the point that we doubt the wisdom of the Church. Atheists start with an a priori assumption that miracles don’t happen. As a Catholic, you should start with the premise that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Then, investigate the Church’s claims. Investigate any published interviews from the nearly 70,000 witnesses of the Fatima miracle, and any other historical evidence. And why stop at Fatima? Investigate the blood of St. Januarius; the miracle at Medjugorge; St Pio of Pietrelcina’s stigmata; the miracle of Lanciano; etc.
There’s nothing wrong with skepticism, and we should be skeptical. However, at some point on our faith journey, if we’re praying and reading scripture, we have to come to the conclusion that the story of our faith contains many miracles - starting with Christ’s resurrection.
D
Della
Guest
Validity is not at issue here. Fatima, indeed all apparitions, are spiritual in nature not a matter of truth/falsity. You are misunderstanding what “worthy of belief” means. I strongly urge you to get and read Fr. Benedict Groeschel’s book: “A Still Small Voice”. It’s not an apologetic in favor of apparitions, but rather an explanation of what they are and how the Church determines their status.
There are lots of people who don’t believe in a lot of things. Really, it has nothing to do with it.
You are making unfounded accusations here. Neither statement is true. I think you have either been told a lot of negative things that seem plausible to you but simply aren’t so or you have not looked into it sufficiently to know what you are talking about. I suspect it’s a little of both.
Because Mary is our Mother in the Faith and our Protector against heresies. And as I already explained, devotion to Mary IS devotion to Christ (as I explained in my previous post which you should re-read). Apparently you know very little about these things. That can be remedied by doing a bit of reading.
The attitude that the Church must prove itself to you based on an artificial standard of your own, however is something you have to sort out with the help of your priest.
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beehumble
Guest
Because Jesus wants it this way. One should read the official documents of Fatima to gain the proper understanding of this.Yeah Fatima is extremely questionable for exactly the reasons you state, seems rather like something made up by someone wishing to exploit the excessive Marian devotion common at the time.
Why not ask to have Russia dedicated to Jesus’ heart? Why not Jesus’s heart as our refuge?
This and other dubious happenings (like Lucia claiming she saw the guardian angel of Portugal
These are the same questions some priests involved with Fatima asked of Lucia. And she asked God for answers and He gave them:
Sister Lucia wrote of the apparition of 10 December 1925, referring to herself in the third person:
The Most Holy Virgin appeared to her [Sister Lucia], and by her side, elevated on a luminous cloud, was the child Jesus. The Most Holy Virgin rested her hand on her [Sister Lucy’s] shoulder and as she did so, she showed her a heart encircled by thorns, which she was holding in her other hand. At the same time, the Child said:
Have compassion on the Heart of your Most Holy Mother, surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce it at every moment, and there is no one to make an act of reparation to remove them.
… in August of 1931, at a chapel in Rianjo, Spain, Sister Lucia reported this important revelation to her bishop:
My confessor ordered me to inform Your Excellency about what happened a little while ago, between our Good God and myself: As I was asking God for the conversion of Russia, Spain and Portugal, it seemed that His Divine Majesty said to me:
You console Me a great deal in asking Me for the conversion of those poor nations:* Request it also of My Mother**, while saying to Her often: Sweet Heart of Mary, be the salvation of Russia, Spain, Portugal, Europe and the whole world.
At other times say: By Thy Pure and Immaculate Conception, O Mary, obtain for me the conversion of Russia, Spain, Portugal, Europe and the whole world.
Make it known to My ministers, given that they follow the example of the King of France in delaying the execution of My command, they will follow him into misfortune. It is never too late to have recourse to Jesus** and Mary**.* (said Jesus)
The efforts on the part of the religious persons involved to better understand the requests from God form a part of Fatima’s history. Upon conveying these requests, Sister Lucia was asked questions from the bishops, and, …at the first available opportunity she would ask Jesus or Blessed Mary through prayer. **One such question dealt with the number of first Saturdays. **On 29 May 1930, at a chapel in Tuy, Spain, Sister Lucia through prayer asked, ‚Why five Saturdays and not 9, or 7, in honor of the Sorrows of Our Lady?‛
Through an interior locution from Jesus, Sister Lucia said she was given to understand that this related to the five main types of offences committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary: blasphemies against the Immaculate Conception; against Mary’s perpetual Virginity; against her Divine Maternity and the refusal to recognize her spiritual motherhood of mankind; for the offences of those who encourage in the hearts of children indifference, contempt and even hatred of their Immaculate Mother, and finally as reparation for those who outrage her in her holy images.
According to Sister Lucia, Jesus further stated:
There, My daughter, is the reason why the Immaculate Heart of Mary inspired Me to request this small act of reparation, and in consideration of it, to move My mercy to forgive souls who have had the misfortune to offend Her. As for you, seek unceasingly, through your prayers and sacrifices, to move My mercy with regard to these poor souls.
Questions were also asked about the form of the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. On 18 May 1936, Sister Lucia replied by letter to Father Jose Goncalves, her spiritual director:
I have spoken with Our Lord about the subject, and not too long ago I asked Him why He would not convert Russia without the Holy Father making that consecration. Jesus answered, ‘Because I want My whole Church to acknowledge that consecration as a triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary so that it may extend its cult later on and put the devotion to this Immaculate Heart beside the devotion to My Sacred Heart.’
Selections from the book A While Longer, pages 54-57.
amazon.com/While-Longer-Greg-J-Cring/dp/1463562543/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329097683&sr=8-1
An excellent book covering the details, including official Church documents, on Fatima is the 480 page definitive work:
fatimafamily.org/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=42
God bless you.
R
razredge
Guest
Ok, firstly Fatima is probably the best attested Marian apparition, so it’s definitely the one I’m most likely to believe.
It isn’t demonstrably false like Guadalupe where any half-wit can see that the tilma is painted by human hands and is not acheiropoieta.
However even with Fatima there are objections on both historic/scientific and theological grounds. For example the miracle of the sun was not seen by many of the witnesses on the day and those who did see something had quite conflicting accounts of what it is they saw.
And if they did see something it was most likely due to them staring at the sun for extended periods of time or due to meterological factors like viewing the sun through clouds etc.
Also there are no pictures of the sun during the miracle.
We must also look at Sr Lucia and her claim that Mary predicted the death of Jacinta and Francisco, however Sr Lucia first made this claim in 1927, well after the fact.
Then the second secret of Fatima claims that “ if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI” However this secret was made known in the Third Memoir which was written in August 1941, so again a case of vaticinium ex eventu.
Other aspects of the visions are also quite fanciful, like the rather medieval conception of hell as fire and brimstone as well as her claim to have met the guardian angel of Portugal! (I wonder if the national guardian angels fight each other during wars)
It isn’t demonstrably false like Guadalupe where any half-wit can see that the tilma is painted by human hands and is not acheiropoieta.
However even with Fatima there are objections on both historic/scientific and theological grounds. For example the miracle of the sun was not seen by many of the witnesses on the day and those who did see something had quite conflicting accounts of what it is they saw.
And if they did see something it was most likely due to them staring at the sun for extended periods of time or due to meterological factors like viewing the sun through clouds etc.
Also there are no pictures of the sun during the miracle.
We must also look at Sr Lucia and her claim that Mary predicted the death of Jacinta and Francisco, however Sr Lucia first made this claim in 1927, well after the fact.
Then the second secret of Fatima claims that “ if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI” However this secret was made known in the Third Memoir which was written in August 1941, so again a case of vaticinium ex eventu.
Other aspects of the visions are also quite fanciful, like the rather medieval conception of hell as fire and brimstone as well as her claim to have met the guardian angel of Portugal! (I wonder if the national guardian angels fight each other during wars
)
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nordskoven
Guest
Genesis 3:15 is God’s grant of divine power and authority for the Woman & Seed to be at war, “enmity,” against Satan and his minions. This is a forensic certitude. Adam already had his grant of divine power and authority to be steward of life, a stewardship he betrayed, bringing sin and death into the world upon the “Sin of Adam.” That is a forensic certainty, binding on all mankind, and reversed upon Christ’s offering of His Body and Blood, the consecrated crucifixion.
God’s ways are not man’s ways. But the “hiding in plain sight” import of the Woman & Seed is further seen in the last book of the Bible, John’s Apocalypse. Chapter 12 is explicitly fulfilled in Our Lady of the Rosary’s appearance at Fatima, Portugal. “A great sign appeared in the heavens; a woman clothed with the Sun…” Fatima seer Sister Lucia noted Our Lady’s garb was as brilliant as the Sun, and the sculpture Father McGlynn created under her direction has shimmering lines in her garment to denote this radiance. In Chapter 12 of the Apocalypse, the Woman is persecuted; her divine Child is persecuted; and her “other children” are persecuted. Was this not the exact situation in Portugal with the Freemasons tearing at the Church, even tearing down the little shrines marking her apparition site?
Why not Russia as God’s instrument of chastisement? Daniel mentions “Rasch” and “Tubal” which is Russia and Tobolsk, city-states denoting Russia as we know her today, as part of the cabal of bad guys that include “Gomer” or Germany and other nations like Turkey that turn to the “dark side.” So mention of nations is not unknown in the Bible. Neither are regional patron angels–fallen or otherwise–alien to Holy Writ. The Prince of Persia refers to the demonic pest charged with encouraging disloyalty to God and His holy will working that explicit territory. That’s not newly invented at Fatima. So what’s the beef? Your cynicism is just that–your cynicism. If your question is, “Is this biblical?” the answer must be indubitably. So open your mind. Surely you can adopt Thomas Aquinas’ tack of seeing both sides of an issue.
Encouraging devotion to the Immaculate Heart will do one thing–inspire within devotees emulation, imitation, of the purity of intent which is the perfect faith response the Virgin Mary shows. This she did in embracing God’s will. That is the perfection to which all are called. She did and does this wholeheartedly, even to accepting the charism of the sword of sorrow piercing her being “that the thoughts of all may be revealed.” Sorry if you are not open to her charism of revelation; her ability to convert millions as she did in what you consider her bogus apparition in Mexico; or her consonance and perfect harmony with God’s will bringing great miracles; or her humble obedience in asking for permission to be granted by the Church’s bishops, to whom she is herself obedient, to be allowed to step in and do battle as Woman & Seed unitively do in fighting Satan and his spiritual seed. Note her Guadalupe image shows she isn’t alone but is bearing the divine Child. The Virgin Mary is Theotokos, Christ-bearer, and is never without Him.
And please note the tie with another apparition, that of the Sacred Heart, given to the Kings of France as a means of escaping the horrible fate that awaited once-Catholic France, all by merely adopting adoration of the merciful Heart of Jesus. This offer was rejected. The explicit request to grant permission for the intervention of the Immaculate Heart was also rejected and millions have died as derivative of Russia’s errors. This includes the genocide of millions of principally Catholic Ukranian Kulaks by Stalin; all World War II casualties as Russia signed a non-aggression pact with wildly bellicose Germany & Japan hoping to scoop up the spoils of war after all parties were laid low; the spread of genocidal Communism that killed millions globally; not to mention Rusisa’s latest foray in terror, selling nuclear materials to acridly genocidal Iran. And consider Russia’s spreading of nuclear waste on the tundra; her export of Lyme Disease to America via Stalin’s financier, Armand Hammer, who was Sen. Gore’s patron…
Or look at Bill Clinton and Gloria Steinen’s training in Communist Russia; or the travesty of spreading nuclear reactors without containment vessels like Chernobyl, which literally means “Wormwood” the “burning element” in John’s Apocalypse…Russia is a country now consecrated to evil, as Pastor Richard Wurmbrand’s book, Marx & Satan shows with Marx and his Russian allies being, not economists, but overt Satanists as seen by their very words… Witnessed by 100,000 as modern photo analysis shows, your cynicism seems overwrought and sadly misplaced as her prophecy of Russia’s “annihilation of nations,” punctuated with this pre-announced miracle of the Sun, has come true in slaughter of astounnding magnitude.
The war against evil by the Woman & Seed is biblical. Count me as one of her “other children” knowing that in Judaism, one’s lineage is accounted through one’s mother, honoring Genesis 3:15 no doubt. Who’s your mama? Jesus was Jewish, as Fr. Most would say, and heir to David’s throne, and fulfilled Messiah’s promise through His Chosen People of a New & Eternal covenant, because His mother was Jewish. “Son, behold your mother.” Adoption counts for sonship 100%. I’m in. You may not know it, like it, or believe it, but you are her child, too, if you account yourself Catholic. She’s the spotless Spouse of the Holy Spirit Who can tolerate no sin. Jesus said to His disciples, “Greater miracles than these will you do.” Don’t underestimate the power and authority of God granted to His elect at His discretion. His ways are not our ways, for which I am grateful. His providence is constant, and the system He created is unimaginably beautiful, even when our free will, also His gift, stymies the good He would do for us in His way.
God’s ways are not man’s ways. But the “hiding in plain sight” import of the Woman & Seed is further seen in the last book of the Bible, John’s Apocalypse. Chapter 12 is explicitly fulfilled in Our Lady of the Rosary’s appearance at Fatima, Portugal. “A great sign appeared in the heavens; a woman clothed with the Sun…” Fatima seer Sister Lucia noted Our Lady’s garb was as brilliant as the Sun, and the sculpture Father McGlynn created under her direction has shimmering lines in her garment to denote this radiance. In Chapter 12 of the Apocalypse, the Woman is persecuted; her divine Child is persecuted; and her “other children” are persecuted. Was this not the exact situation in Portugal with the Freemasons tearing at the Church, even tearing down the little shrines marking her apparition site?
Why not Russia as God’s instrument of chastisement? Daniel mentions “Rasch” and “Tubal” which is Russia and Tobolsk, city-states denoting Russia as we know her today, as part of the cabal of bad guys that include “Gomer” or Germany and other nations like Turkey that turn to the “dark side.” So mention of nations is not unknown in the Bible. Neither are regional patron angels–fallen or otherwise–alien to Holy Writ. The Prince of Persia refers to the demonic pest charged with encouraging disloyalty to God and His holy will working that explicit territory. That’s not newly invented at Fatima. So what’s the beef? Your cynicism is just that–your cynicism. If your question is, “Is this biblical?” the answer must be indubitably. So open your mind. Surely you can adopt Thomas Aquinas’ tack of seeing both sides of an issue.
Encouraging devotion to the Immaculate Heart will do one thing–inspire within devotees emulation, imitation, of the purity of intent which is the perfect faith response the Virgin Mary shows. This she did in embracing God’s will. That is the perfection to which all are called. She did and does this wholeheartedly, even to accepting the charism of the sword of sorrow piercing her being “that the thoughts of all may be revealed.” Sorry if you are not open to her charism of revelation; her ability to convert millions as she did in what you consider her bogus apparition in Mexico; or her consonance and perfect harmony with God’s will bringing great miracles; or her humble obedience in asking for permission to be granted by the Church’s bishops, to whom she is herself obedient, to be allowed to step in and do battle as Woman & Seed unitively do in fighting Satan and his spiritual seed. Note her Guadalupe image shows she isn’t alone but is bearing the divine Child. The Virgin Mary is Theotokos, Christ-bearer, and is never without Him.
And please note the tie with another apparition, that of the Sacred Heart, given to the Kings of France as a means of escaping the horrible fate that awaited once-Catholic France, all by merely adopting adoration of the merciful Heart of Jesus. This offer was rejected. The explicit request to grant permission for the intervention of the Immaculate Heart was also rejected and millions have died as derivative of Russia’s errors. This includes the genocide of millions of principally Catholic Ukranian Kulaks by Stalin; all World War II casualties as Russia signed a non-aggression pact with wildly bellicose Germany & Japan hoping to scoop up the spoils of war after all parties were laid low; the spread of genocidal Communism that killed millions globally; not to mention Rusisa’s latest foray in terror, selling nuclear materials to acridly genocidal Iran. And consider Russia’s spreading of nuclear waste on the tundra; her export of Lyme Disease to America via Stalin’s financier, Armand Hammer, who was Sen. Gore’s patron…
Or look at Bill Clinton and Gloria Steinen’s training in Communist Russia; or the travesty of spreading nuclear reactors without containment vessels like Chernobyl, which literally means “Wormwood” the “burning element” in John’s Apocalypse…Russia is a country now consecrated to evil, as Pastor Richard Wurmbrand’s book, Marx & Satan shows with Marx and his Russian allies being, not economists, but overt Satanists as seen by their very words… Witnessed by 100,000 as modern photo analysis shows, your cynicism seems overwrought and sadly misplaced as her prophecy of Russia’s “annihilation of nations,” punctuated with this pre-announced miracle of the Sun, has come true in slaughter of astounnding magnitude.
The war against evil by the Woman & Seed is biblical. Count me as one of her “other children” knowing that in Judaism, one’s lineage is accounted through one’s mother, honoring Genesis 3:15 no doubt. Who’s your mama? Jesus was Jewish, as Fr. Most would say, and heir to David’s throne, and fulfilled Messiah’s promise through His Chosen People of a New & Eternal covenant, because His mother was Jewish. “Son, behold your mother.” Adoption counts for sonship 100%. I’m in. You may not know it, like it, or believe it, but you are her child, too, if you account yourself Catholic. She’s the spotless Spouse of the Holy Spirit Who can tolerate no sin. Jesus said to His disciples, “Greater miracles than these will you do.” Don’t underestimate the power and authority of God granted to His elect at His discretion. His ways are not our ways, for which I am grateful. His providence is constant, and the system He created is unimaginably beautiful, even when our free will, also His gift, stymies the good He would do for us in His way.
D
Della
Guest
I don’t know where you got this, but it’s an outright lie. Just the opposite is true. The image was NOT painted. This has been proved by scientists.
You are wrong on all these points. Lucia’s bishop knew the things Mary told her and the other children because they told him about it. Lucia’s writings are not the only source material for the predictions. And who in 1917 would be able to take a picture of the sun dancing? And why can’t Lucia have seen Portugal’s guardian angel? Every country has one, and I’m sure they would prevent wars if they could get men to be good, as we ought to be. I’m sure they intercede for the people involved. What a disgusting idea to suggest they would encourage wars among men.Other aspects of the visions are also quite fanciful, like the rather medieval conception of hell as fire and brimstone as well as her claim to have met the guardian angel of Portugal! (I wonder if the national guardian angels fight each other during wars
What you are saying with all this is that the Church has either been duplicitous in telling lies or it was duped. It is plain you have been reading anti-religious/Catholic material bent on destroying people’s faith by obfusticating the facts or outright lying. They are deceiving you.
Look at the expression “half wit”. What does that say? It says sneering disbelief–that’s what it says, and it’s right off the atheists’ list of abusive expressions for those who believe in God. I’m not saying you are an atheist, but you are definitely being influenced by them. Ask yourself is it really the Church’s reputation you are concerned about or is it something else that’s driving your need to write calumnies like this? Only you can answer that.
The Church never just takes anyone’s word for the veracity of apparitions/inner locutions/miraculous events, etc. It thoroughly investigates such claims employing scientists who aren’t/don’t need to be Catholic or of any belief at all. If you cannot/will not believe this look into it for yourself. Open you mind to the possibility that the Church isn’t some “head in the clouds” institution that wants to believe every nut that claims to see something. It most certainly isn’t that. Just the opposite is true. The bishops grill those who make such claims and investigate and wait until the evidence is overwhelming before making any pronouncements.
B
beehumble
Guest
You need to learn about Fatima and get your facts straight before you proceed to discuss it in an open forum, so that you don’t embarrass yourself. It is increasingly obvious with each of your succeeding posts that you have not done any research on Fatima and so are way out of your depth. As the saying goes,Ok, firstly Fatima is probably the best attested Marian apparition, so it’s definitely the one I’m most likely to believe.
It isn’t demonstrably false like Guadalupe where any half-wit can see that the tilma is painted by human hands and is not acheiropoieta.
However even with Fatima there are objections on both historic/scientific and theological grounds. For example the miracle of the sun was not seen by many of the witnesses on the day and those who did see something had quite conflicting accounts of what it is they saw.
And if they did see something it was most likely due to them staring at the sun for extended periods of time or due to meterological factors like viewing the sun through clouds etc.
Also there are no pictures of the sun during the miracle.
We must also look at Sr Lucia and her claim that Mary predicted the death of Jacinta and Francisco, however Sr Lucia first made this claim in 1927, well after the fact.
Then the second secret of Fatima claims that “ if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the pontificate of Pius XI” However this secret was made known in the Third Memoir which was written in August 1941, so again a case of vaticinium ex eventu.
Other aspects of the visions are also quite fanciful, like the rather medieval conception of hell as fire and brimstone as well as her claim to have met the guardian angel of Portugal! (I wonder if the national guardian angels fight each other during wars
“Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.”
Simply put, what you don’t know about Fatima (and Guadalupe, and guardian angels, for that matter) is a lot.
(Just one of the so many things you do not know about Fatima - people not at Fatima saw the sun miracle too, proving it was not mass hysteria or a mass hallucination, nor caused by looking too long at the sun - since those many miles away only looked once they saw the sun moving oddly in the sky - they were not present to see or hear Lucia mention about looking at the sun.)
Can you just please give me the motive for Lucia making this stuff up? She gained nor desired any wealth, and any fame was not hers - she remained a simple person who lived out her days in a simple convent. So it makes no sense for her to make this up.
God bless you.
R
razredge
Guest
Sigh, some people’s credulous attitude to the Guadalupe tilma brings ‘the Emperor’s New Clothes’ to mind. If you’d ask anyone unacquainted with the legend- a small child, a taxi driver, an art historian whether the Tilma looked like it was painted by God himself would they agree? Of course not, if it was painted by God it’d be the most sublime painting in existence far exceeding anything painted by human artists.
The tilma is most decidedly not any of these things and while some early ‘scientific’ investigations (conducted by believers) claimed that there was no evidence of brushstrokes more recent investigations state otherwise:
Oh really, please show me evidence that Lucia predicted Jacinta’s and Francisco’s death and the beginning of WWII before the fact (not to mention the statement was that a war would break out in the reign of Pope Pius XI when actually it broke out under Pius XII )
If you see no problem with there being a guardian angel of Portugal, then i’m afraid arguing with you will be a fruitless exercise. Tell me how do you know that ‘every country has a guardian angel’? Does the EU have one? Do cities, states and regions have their own guardian angels? When Yugoslavia broke up did its guardian angel retire and did God appoint angels to the newly formed states?
If I am influenced by anything it is reason, critical thinking and skeptical inquiry which should not be conflated with atheism. And yes, I am very concerned about the Church’s reputation, as Pope Benedict says: “That which is Catholic cannot be stupid, and that which is stupid cannot be Catholic”
Of course it does - i’m certainly not saying it approves every miraculous claim- the issue is that the final decision to approve is not always made on rational grounds and there have been plenty of cases where skeptical factions within the Church are ignored to appease the faithful who believe in the miracle. For example Guadalupe is a national icon of Mexico and was a deciding factorand the Church would not be willing to risk the umbrage of Latin American Catholics by declaring it not to be genuine. Nor would it do them good to admit that the apparition that led to the conversion of Mexico was actually false. To declare Guadalupe anything other than authentic would have been political suicide.
lasculturas.com/aa/aa060600a.htm
R
razredge
Guest
Actually, learning more about Fatima was the reason I now am skeptical towards it, previously I thought it actually did happen.
Actually, I’ve heard of that before - but a single shepherd in the hills saying he saw the sun move in the sky doesn’t prove anything - more telling is the fact that no observatory in the world noticed anything unusual with the sun
Sure:
B
beehumble
Guest
A fool argues with fools, so I won’t spend much time here except to say
- you are being disingenuous in saying you heard that before, then saying “a single shepherd in the hills”, when it was more than a single shepherd in the hills. No observatory seeing it just means it was supernatural, not natural (i.e. perhaps something between the people and the actual sun that they saw - hence blocking their view of the actual sun.)
- you say, “Oh really, please show me evidence that Lucia predicted Jacinta’s and Francisco’s death and the beginning of WWII before the fact (**not to mention the statement was that a war would break out in the reign of Pope Pius XI when actually it broke out under Pius XII **)”
Instead, historians have agreed that WWII started earlier than Sept 1, 1939. Pius Xi died in Feb 1939, but Japan was already at war with China in 1937 - and many historians agree the war actually started when Hitler annexed Austria in 1938. he did this to test the Allied response, and getting none, moved into the Sudetenland, then all of Czechoslovakia, then made demands on Danzig, then invaded Poland. And Italy invaded Ethiopia in 1935.
And all that nonsense psychobabble about Lucia manipulating the other children still does not provide a motive for her to later join a convent and follow a simple, humble life out of the limelight.
Anyway, that is enough for me in this thread - just made a few basic corrections here but to argue with a fool is to become a bigger fool, and I do not intend to go there.
Good day and God bless you.
E
ESMDHokie77
Guest
scriptural basis? oh yeah, the Church’s inability to teach wrongly… Matt 16 18.
R
razredge
Guest
Ok, I do not know exactly how many people saw the vision from afar.
HOw many people not at the Cova saw the Miracle of the Sun and what did they see?
And the Miracle if not involving the actual Sun is far more likely to be some kind of vision or hallucination rather than an actual physical phenomenon occluding the view of the actual Sun (as about half the crowd at the Cova didn’t see anything, which they would had it been a physical phenomenon).
Lucia herself has argued for the 1938 date of the annexation of Austria - but even granting that the war began under Pius XI, it’s irrelevant as the secret first appeared in 1941 in the Third Memoir.
Excuse me, none of it is psychobabble - that excerpt just shows that Lucia was apt at telling fanciful stories and her own mother thought she was leading half the world astray.
Also don’t you think it is just a little too convenient that Lucia claimed that only she could hear the secrets from Mary? Neatly sidestepping any problems with conflicting accounts that might arise.
And maybe she was quite taken back at just how successful her prank had become and just wanded to fade away from the limelight (and of course any questioning which might expose the truth).
N
nordskoven
Guest
The Church, which gave us the Holy Bible, may be relied on to rule on the consonance of private revelation–belief optional–with divine truth. We, for our part, well may inquire as to scriptural parallels surfacing in approved apparitions and interior locutions.
Daniel, the prophet who predicted Messiah’s triumphant entrance into Jerusalem to the day, memorialized as Palm Sunday, twice made mention of guardian angels: The Prince of Persia who warred against the angelic messenger 21 days; and Michael, as the guardian angel of the Children of God. The Angel of Peace protecting Portugal parallels Biblical revelation which would have been fantastic for peasant children to have known; children who thought “Russia” was some bad lady.
Another parallel with Biblical events is that of true prophets predicting war when the pundits and false prophets insist upon the reverse. Now denominated “World War I,” the war engaged in at the time of the Fatima, Portugal, apparitions was called The Great War; and “The War to End All Wars.” NOBODY THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE ANOTHER WAR, LET ALONE A WORLD WAR, AFTER “THE WAR TO END ALL WARS,” OR WHAT IS NOW CALLED WORLD WAR I. NOBODY THOUGHT WRETCHED, BACKWARDS RUSSIA WOULD BE PIVOTAL IN EFFECTING ANYTHING GLOBAL, LET ALONE GENOCIDE TOTALLING IN THE MILLIONS. NOBODY KNEW OF RUSSIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST THE KULAKS, INITIATED IN 1929, THE VERY YEAR OUR LADY RETURNED TO SISTER LUCIA TO ASK FOR THE TIMELY CONSECRATION OF RUSSIA TO HER IMMACULATE HEART.
What a prodigy this Lucia Dos Santos may be considered to be if her revelations are not of divine origin. These warnings and prophecies she relayed from Our Lady of the Rosary are spot-on and irrefutible. Lucia’s character was so sterling and her catechetic training so thorough that she taught other children, and was herself granted First Communion at an uncommonly early age. She was entrusted with the care of many children in her community, and particularly entrusted with the duties of shepherdess at an early age. She endured beatings by her mother and shunning by her family and community where once she was the pampered darling, all to uphold truth, one may presume.
Would it be seemly, or logical, to use smear tactics, AD HOMINEM attacks, against questioners and suggest that they are delusional liars and mask our caustic disdain as skepticism? 100,000 people saw the Miracle of the Sun. There are no mass delusions with a shared common experience, as from ergot poisoning causing mass hallucinations, let alone one in which the hallucinated Sun dried up fields that were, moments before, knee-deep with mud; and cleaned all the clothing of those in attendance. This is good quantum physics and those well-schooled in physics make some of the best apologists.
We are commanded by Jesus Christ to keep asking, seeking and knocking. Ask God to clarify His intent and for enlightenment. The simple fact is, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to the Immaculate Heart because there is no way to honor this purity of intent without seeking to emulate that perfection which we all must seek to obey Christ’s command to be pefect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. That one area in which we can seek and obtain perfection is not of action but of intent, which sanctifies our actions. That’s Biblical.
Our Lady’s temporal salvation offered at Fatima is also Biblical. The Woman of Genesis, “woman” being the Genesis title Christ used exclusively to describe His mother, is described as Adam’s “helpmate” which is an impoverished translation of a potent word used elsewhere only of God! This is paralleled by wisdom having a feminine persona, as in Proverbs. This “helpmate” is to be an instrument of life-giving, as one who gives water to a man dying of thirst. She is not the water; but she brings the water that saves the life. She’s not THE Savior, but she has salvific duties. So we’re back to Genesis, and the Woman & Seed’s divine mandate to war against the Father of Lies and Murder and his spiritual seed.
I hope my previous post will be revisited as no response has been forthcoming. Blessings.
Daniel, the prophet who predicted Messiah’s triumphant entrance into Jerusalem to the day, memorialized as Palm Sunday, twice made mention of guardian angels: The Prince of Persia who warred against the angelic messenger 21 days; and Michael, as the guardian angel of the Children of God. The Angel of Peace protecting Portugal parallels Biblical revelation which would have been fantastic for peasant children to have known; children who thought “Russia” was some bad lady.
Another parallel with Biblical events is that of true prophets predicting war when the pundits and false prophets insist upon the reverse. Now denominated “World War I,” the war engaged in at the time of the Fatima, Portugal, apparitions was called The Great War; and “The War to End All Wars.” NOBODY THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE ANOTHER WAR, LET ALONE A WORLD WAR, AFTER “THE WAR TO END ALL WARS,” OR WHAT IS NOW CALLED WORLD WAR I. NOBODY THOUGHT WRETCHED, BACKWARDS RUSSIA WOULD BE PIVOTAL IN EFFECTING ANYTHING GLOBAL, LET ALONE GENOCIDE TOTALLING IN THE MILLIONS. NOBODY KNEW OF RUSSIAN GENOCIDE AGAINST THE KULAKS, INITIATED IN 1929, THE VERY YEAR OUR LADY RETURNED TO SISTER LUCIA TO ASK FOR THE TIMELY CONSECRATION OF RUSSIA TO HER IMMACULATE HEART.
What a prodigy this Lucia Dos Santos may be considered to be if her revelations are not of divine origin. These warnings and prophecies she relayed from Our Lady of the Rosary are spot-on and irrefutible. Lucia’s character was so sterling and her catechetic training so thorough that she taught other children, and was herself granted First Communion at an uncommonly early age. She was entrusted with the care of many children in her community, and particularly entrusted with the duties of shepherdess at an early age. She endured beatings by her mother and shunning by her family and community where once she was the pampered darling, all to uphold truth, one may presume.
Would it be seemly, or logical, to use smear tactics, AD HOMINEM attacks, against questioners and suggest that they are delusional liars and mask our caustic disdain as skepticism? 100,000 people saw the Miracle of the Sun. There are no mass delusions with a shared common experience, as from ergot poisoning causing mass hallucinations, let alone one in which the hallucinated Sun dried up fields that were, moments before, knee-deep with mud; and cleaned all the clothing of those in attendance. This is good quantum physics and those well-schooled in physics make some of the best apologists.
We are commanded by Jesus Christ to keep asking, seeking and knocking. Ask God to clarify His intent and for enlightenment. The simple fact is, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to the Immaculate Heart because there is no way to honor this purity of intent without seeking to emulate that perfection which we all must seek to obey Christ’s command to be pefect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect. That one area in which we can seek and obtain perfection is not of action but of intent, which sanctifies our actions. That’s Biblical.
Our Lady’s temporal salvation offered at Fatima is also Biblical. The Woman of Genesis, “woman” being the Genesis title Christ used exclusively to describe His mother, is described as Adam’s “helpmate” which is an impoverished translation of a potent word used elsewhere only of God! This is paralleled by wisdom having a feminine persona, as in Proverbs. This “helpmate” is to be an instrument of life-giving, as one who gives water to a man dying of thirst. She is not the water; but she brings the water that saves the life. She’s not THE Savior, but she has salvific duties. So we’re back to Genesis, and the Woman & Seed’s divine mandate to war against the Father of Lies and Murder and his spiritual seed.
I hope my previous post will be revisited as no response has been forthcoming. Blessings.
D
Della
Guest
First of all, there’s no need for the sarcasm. And no, I don’t believe if you were to ask just anyone if such an image were possible you’d get nothing but negative replies. Besides which it would hardly prove anything. Jesus’ resurrection and incarnation are hardly everyday events, either, but millions of people believe that with no more evidence that the Church’s word for it (the Bible being a product of the holy men of Israel and of the Apostles).
The original image has had some paint applied to it, yes, which I think was quite wrong to do, but that’s another matter. The overall image was NOT painted on and that was proved by real scientists and is still upheld by any real scientists who have actually examined it.
If the Church believed these things unreliable it would never have approved Fatima. You aren’t reading what we’re writing here–the Church investigates these things thoroughly. You need to have a good long talk with your priest–not to accept any apparition but about your unwillingness to agree that the Church has the authority to make pronouncements about such matters.
No, I have no problem with guardian angels of any place/people/individuals. Do you really think God is so stupid he doesn’t understand the shifts in politics and doesn’t assign angels as they are needed? Some angels have many “duties” they perform. It’s no problem for them at all. You are the one who can’t seem to see beyond the mere physical world.
Yes, and Pope Benedict firmly believes in the miraculous because it is not stupid to believe but it is stupid to read material intended to destroy your faith and take it at face value.
So now the Church is merely concerned with politics and will compromise the truth for the sake of it? :bigyikes: And the link is evidence you are reading material meant to cast doubt by unproved accusations and calumnies of the worst kind. This is not how a Catholic should learn about his Church. You really need to talk to your priest, and I mean ASAP. Call him today to set up an appointment.
M
Michael_Francis
Guest
Thanks to all who participated in this discussion.
The question, having been answered, this thread is now closed.
The question, having been answered, this thread is now closed.
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