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GodHeals
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You might find this interesting:
The article also talks about the fly trap.
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Bob_Crowley
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I cani’t point to a specific scripture verse that supports souls in plants, but since they are living beings, then as far as I’m concerned they have souls or spirits.
On datnig the earth, I used to be a bit of a fanatic on Creationism when I first became a (protestant) Christian. I know some of the Ham family by sight and minor acquaintance (some of them used to attend my wife’s Baptist Church), and Ken Ham wno started the US Creation museum was originally a local here. At about the same time I became a Christian, the “Creation Science” group was growing, and it seemed to answer some of my questions about evolution, which had been partly responsibie for my turning away from Christiainity in my earlier years.
However I get a bit wary when they start trying to blame the theory of evolution for all the world’s sins, and I haven’t got much interest in a six day creation. Even if it can be proved the universe is younger, there’s no way anyone can prove a six day creation, so I don’t care about fundamentalist claims on that one. I simply don’t care.
I’m inclined to think the universe is a lot younger than we think, and that there’s a fundamental flaw in our dating methods. There was an Israeli physicist who had a theory about a five dimensional universe, and by doing so not only reduced the age of the universe back to “Biblical” levels, but also explained the so-called “Missing mass” (which is just a term to say they can’t correlate the observed expansion rate with the alleged age in terms of current physics. So they’ve posited “missing mass” to explain the discrepancy.
But if I had to make a guess at how old the earth was, I’d say around 10,000 years. But without proof, and until Creation Scientists starting writing formal, peer approved papers on dating, it’s going to be an uphill battle.
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Bob_Crowley
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I mentioned an Israeli physicist above as having a theory on 5 dimensional physics (actually a theory of 5 dimensional relativity), so I thought I’d better go looking for him. His name was Moshe Carmeli, and he was Albert Einstein Professor of of Theoretical Physics, Ben Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel. Potted biography below.
physweb.bgu.ac.il/HOMEPAGES/FACULTY/Carmeli/main.html
The following extract comes from an article on “Jewish concepts of time” at …
ldolphin.org/jtime.html
physweb.bgu.ac.il/HOMEPAGES/FACULTY/Carmeli/main.html
The following extract comes from an article on “Jewish concepts of time” at …
ldolphin.org/jtime.html
Which means that early “time” took a lot longer, thus negating the need for “billions of years”, since a thousand years in Carmeli’s time frame early in the universe’s life would be equivalent to billions of years in our current time frame. That’s how I understand it anyway.
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LegoGE1947
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Even shoes have a sole!
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LegoGE1947
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Don’t try playing with serpents at home!
po18guy
Well-known member
They remain outside.Don’t try playing with serpents at home!
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LegoGE1947
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WAY OUTSIDE!!!
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Della
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Not to sound like Cliff on Cheers.Don’t try playing with serpents at home!
but many repiles make very nice pets. Most are quite docile and love to be held (body warmth). I once worked in a gas station (just took money not cleaned winshields, etc.) in which the boss had an iguana–a rather large one named Spike (what else?). Spike and I got to be great friends. I’d hold him on my shoulder and stroke his eye ridges, which he loved having me do. And most species of snakes are not poisonous or even dangerous. We used to chase garter snakes at camp, and if we caught them wear them around our wrist like bracelets. As for vipers–I wouldn’t like to test their friendliness. Ha!
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GodHeals
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I don’t believe the Catholic church has any doctrine or dogma : ) that Plants are alive… It also isn’t in Genesis… which is where we CLEARLY see Humans and Animals are living.
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GodHeals
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Thank you for the information! It is cool that you were there in the “beginnings” : ) of AIG. I really enjoy their articles. To post again: kolbecenter.org/ Is a Catholic Creation website…(has some former protestant testimonies on there i can relate too) based on St. Maximilian Kolbe creationist beliefs, i think… Still learning about him. I DIDN’T PUT IT TOGETHER THAT HE WAS A CREATIONIST, EVEN AFTER VISITING THE WEBSITE. So when i found out, i felt like he was my new hero Saint! I live near the US Shrine of St. Maximilian Kolbe which is in Mundelein, IL.
Being that there are Catholic Creationist, helps me to be at peace and to eventually make the leap into the Catholic faith… which i was raised into, but never believed it for myself, even after confirmation and attending Mass nearly my entire life of 20+ years at the time.
I will check out the links that you posted. Thanks!
BTW CHECK OUT WHY AIG SAYS PLANTS ARE NOT LIVING: answersingenesis.org/articles/tj/v6/n2/life
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E_7
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Exactly. The soul is the cause of life which is the effect.
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GodHeals
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Hey Bob, How and why did you become Catholic? Where you raised in a particular religion?
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GodHeals
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Also, since the scriptures say GREEN THINGS and Wither, not die, besides the fact that plants aren’t called LIVING. isn’t it easier to say they aren’t living?
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Bob_Crowley
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Interesting. I’m still Protestant enough that I don’t pray to saints, even though my old Protestant pastor wasn’t against it. “They’re doing something up there” was how he put it.
But I’ve often felt that if I were to have a “patron” saint, it would be St. Maximilian Kolbe. There is a church by that name not very far from here. I also knew nothing of his creationist beliefs. Thanks for the info.
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Bob_Crowley
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As an infant I was baptised Presbyterian, but this wasn’t due to my parents’ conviction. My father lost his Catholic faith, and one way he rebelled was to have me baptised Presbyterian, and my sister wasn’t baptised at all, although she had herself baptised later. My mother was Anglican, so in a family of four we had three denominations and one non-committed! Just like a microcosm of Western society today.
I was packed off to Presbyterian Sunday School as a kid, but as soon as I could I got out of it, as my parents didn’t go to church, and as far as I was concerned it was hypocritical of them to insist on it for me when they didn’t practice what they preached. In addition it wasn’t a very happy household. My father was a real mongrel frankly, although he did give me a considerable amount of good advice, but I wouldn’t listen to him because of the way he treated me.
From the age of about 15, I dropped right out of organised religion, and became atheist.
However at the age of 28, after going nowhere and at the end of the worst four years of my life, I had this sense I better start going back to church. So I did. And that’s when I met my “old Protestant pastor” whom I often quote and refer to. Since I’d been to Presbyterian Sunday School, that’s where I went when I became Christian in the full sense. CS Lewis became Christian at the same age incidentally, except in his case he wrote he was “probably the most dejected convert in all Christendom.” I think his free thinking atheism had a much stronger hold on him that it did on me, and he was very reluctant to get down on his knees. I don’t think I was that bad.
However the old pastor was a Methodist by training, a refugee from the Uniting Church merger in the 1970’s between Methodists, Congregationalists and some Presbyterian parishes. He was dissatisfied with the Uniting Church and left, losing all his superannuation entitlements in doing so. In the end I don’t think he thought much of the local Presbyterian outfit either. But I had the good fortune to meet him, and I think that’s why I had the impulse to start going to church at that time, when he was the resident pastor. I think God wanted me to meet him, as well as become Christian.
I even had a brief vision once, where Someone(?) said, “I want you to stick close to Mr. Missenden (his name). He’ll discourage you, but you’ll learn a lot from him.” I"ve said my father appeared in my room the night he died in 1979, and one of his **specific **predictions was, “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more!”
I met Rev. Missenden in 1982, so you don’t get any brownie points as to my father was referring to. Rev. Missenden apologised to me for his discouragement, probably in 1991, saying, “You needed encouragement, and all I’ve done is to discourage you even more.” I pointed out to him that he’d just quoted my father back to me almost word for word. Incidentally, the pastor himself predicted that he thought I’d “become Catholic. I think you’ll be happier there, and I think the Lord might want you to join the Catholic Church”.
Anyway I got re-married not long before he died, and for work reasons moved too far away to keep going to his church. My wife is Baptist, and so for some time we went to Baptist churches. My wife still does. The pastor’s sons had since left the Presbyterian Church and on their account I joined the Wesleyan Methodists for a while. I still try to attend my wife’s church monthly, although I try to avoid their communion Sundays on the first Sunday of the month, rather than make an issue out of not taking communion.
But I was getting disillusioned wtih the divided state of the Protestant church, and something seemed to be missing. Eventually the same sort of push to become Catholic as I’d experienced to become Christian started up. I resisted it for a while, but one day I had a public argument with a protestant pastor, and that was it… Push became shove and I went, did RCIA and have been in pretty much the same parish since.
The old pastor turned up one niight in one of these brief visions I get occasionally and simply said, “The Catholic Church is CLOSEST to the truth”. And that was all he said. I still have a couple of bones of contention with the Catholic Church, namely on artificial contraception, and the “infallibility” bit, but apart from that I think it’s, to quote the pastor, “closest” to the truth.
In a nutshell, I suppose that’s about it.
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
I also might add that about the same time I was thinking about becoming Catholic, I started getting some psychiatric help from a Catholic psychiatrist, mainly for depression. He put me on Prozac for about 10 years, but he is also a very spiritual man, and this was a big help as i could talk with him on some spiritual things as well. I’m pretty sure my old pastor wanted me to see him a few years earlier, and I refused. But the time came when I had to do something about my depression, and another Baptist pastor referred me to him instead. So I ended up taking the old pastor’s advice anyway.
And being Catholic, he was able to put a bit of a different slant on spiritual things than the usual Protestant cut-and-dried formula - heaven or hell, and no questions asked. This made the transition a bit easier. And like me, he was a Catholic “by choice” ie. a convert from Protestantism. For example I still remember one comment he made about Mary - “It took me **years **to work out where Mary fits into the scheme of things - her main role is to intercede on behalf of the souls in Purgatory.”
I’ve posted his web site before, but I’ll put it on again, as the “spiritual publications” are well worth reading for interest’s sake.
williamwilkie.com/
And being Catholic, he was able to put a bit of a different slant on spiritual things than the usual Protestant cut-and-dried formula - heaven or hell, and no questions asked. This made the transition a bit easier. And like me, he was a Catholic “by choice” ie. a convert from Protestantism. For example I still remember one comment he made about Mary - “It took me **years **to work out where Mary fits into the scheme of things - her main role is to intercede on behalf of the souls in Purgatory.”
I’ve posted his web site before, but I’ll put it on again, as the “spiritual publications” are well worth reading for interest’s sake.
williamwilkie.com/
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PJM
Guest
There is no place [nor needd there be], a verification od plants [or animals for that matter] having souls. The phisosophy stems from a rather common undetrstanding that “the souls is the annimator of all forms of life.”: Human souls included; even though ours are unique in that attached to all human souls are our minds, intellects and freewills. Also Spiritual Things which cannot die or be killed.
God Bless,
pat
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Della
Guest
Yes, anything that grows, takes in nourishment, and reproduces itself is considered alive. “Soul” merely means animated–alive. It does not mean immortal. It’s why we have to define the human soul as rational and immortal as opposed to animal and plants which are alive but are not immortal. As C. S. Lewis put it “we are not bodies with souls, we are souls with bodies” because we are immortal beings–it’s why we will be resurrected and reunited with our bodies. Plants and animals, OTOH, are merely animated or alive for as long as their physical being is alive.There is no place [nor needd there be], a verification od plants [or animals for that matter] having souls. The phisosophy stems from a rather common undetrstanding that “the souls is the annimator of all forms of life.”: Human souls included; even though ours are unique in that attached to all human souls are our minds, intellects and freewills. Also Spiritual Things which cannot die or be killed.
God Bless,
pat
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GodHeals
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Thanks for trying, I just like to see things in scripture, apart from philosophy “alone”… reminds me of bible “alone”. But, i guess it is more complicated that we think. I think that AIG link showed some of the complexity of the requirements for something that is LIVING.There is no place [nor needd there be], a verification od plants [or animals for that matter] having souls. The phisosophy stems from a rather common undetrstanding that “the souls is the annimator of all forms of life.”: Human souls included; even though ours are unique in that attached to all human souls are our minds, intellects and freewills. Also Spiritual Things which cannot die or be killed.
God Bless,
pat
God Bless You, Pat. Brian
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