What should I do? (a conscience vs church issue)

[Debora123]

Ok, so another question that came up from reading some of the links a couple of you have posted for me:

Is “conscience” then basically just the voice of God?

So if someone’s “conscience” is telling them to do something that is not exactly in line with a Church teaching, is it right to say that it’s not actually the person’s conscience at play here, but the person’s “feelings?”

 

[dailey]

I am confused on what you expect to gain from this thread? You know what the church teaches. Instead of trying to justify your beliefs, focus and pray that God will grant you the grace to be obedient to him.

 

[Debora123]

I am confused on what you expect to gain from this thread? You know what the church teaches. Instead of trying to justify your beliefs, focus and pray that God will grant you the grace to be obedient to him.

As I’ve stated in my OP, I have prayed over this very much.

I’m not trying to justify anything, and as my OP states, I’m just looking for some advice… perhaps maybe someone will give me some new insight I haven’t heard before. I figured it wouldn’t hurt to ask. A couple members posted some links for me and that led me to ask another question that I’m currently waiting on for a response. It’s on the post above yours.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Well Debora, I’ll be the first person here to sympathize with you…

Not necessarily on these matters, but the idea in general… there are a couple of areas in which neither God nor I have been able to sway my conscience in accordance with Church teaching or what I understand to be Church teaching. Of course that is amplified due to the fact that we have so many theologians who disagree about what Church teaching really is, which kinda backs you into a corner. For example, on the subject of sexuality, is Christopher West accurately portraying the Church’s views, or is Ron Conte? I have read both, they disagree, and I have not a clue in the world who is supposed to be right. Try to ask questions here and there’s really no reasonable discussion to be had IMHO. That’s just an aside, my issues are mostly not related to sexuality.

Back on topic… if Church teaching and your conscience clashes,what are you to do? I don’t know. I’ve been looking for the answer to that for years now, and I’ve got none. It’s a heck of a predicament: your conscience cannot seem to abandon the Church, but the Church certainly does not want you to abandon your conscience either, right?

So where does that leave you? Spinning in circles, praying to God for help… but help doesn’t come. It doesn’t come.

I think that’s the thing that, ultimately, only you and I truly understand here. Not everyone is lucky enough to have the Holy Spirit descend on them in the night and help us understand. For those of us with this curse, the instruction is simply repeated, “Keep praying,” I.E., keep doing the thing that hasn’t worked for you despite years of trying. That’s the frustrating part.

 

[Debora123]

Well Debora, I’ll be the first person here to sympathize with you…

Not necessarily on these matters, but the idea in general… there are a couple of areas in which neither God nor I have been able to sway my conscience in accordance with Church teaching or what I understand to be Church teaching. Of course that is amplified due to the fact that we have so many theologians who disagree about what Church teaching really is, which kinda backs you into a corner. For example, on the subject of sexuality, is Christopher West accurately portraying the Church’s views, or is Ron Conte? I have read both, they disagree, and I have not a clue in the world who is supposed to be right. Try to ask questions here and there’s really no reasonable discussion to be had IMHO. That’s just an aside, my issues are mostly not related to sexuality.

Back on topic… if Church teaching and your conscience clashes,what are you to do? I don’t know. I’ve been looking for the answer to that for years now, and I’ve got none. It’s a heck of a predicament: your conscience cannot seem to abandon the Church, but the Church certainly does not want you to abandon your conscience either, right?

So where does that leave you? Spinning in circles, praying to God for help… but help doesn’t come. It doesn’t come.

I think that’s the thing that, ultimately, only you and I truly understand here. Not everyone is lucky enough to have the Holy Spirit descend on them in the night and help us understand. For those of us with this curse, the instruction is simply repeated, “Keep praying,” I.E., keep doing the thing that hasn’t worked for you despite years of trying. That’s the frustrating part.

I am glad that someone else knows what it feels like, though I am sad that you bear the same burden. I wish everything were crystal clear.

Have you sought a spiritual adviser?

 

[John21652]

I’m not sure about the way you’ve worded it, but to be more clear, I am basically saying that I will be open to having children in my marriage, and I will have those children when I no longer have just reasons to avoid. Only difference is I don’t think that periodic abstinence is the only licit way to avoid, that’s all. But of course, if I am to get pregnant “by accident” then I will certainly openly welcome that child into my life. If you think any of what I’ve said here is a contradiction then I am sorry but I disagree I guess.

And you are saying here exactly what the non-Catholics who support contraception all say. Abstinence is indeed not the only licit wy. There is NFP. However, even some think that is making the openess to life contingent. The Church explains in great detail what openess to life is. Remove the aspects of that openess to life philosophy and you no longer have a true openess to life mindset. It becomes compromised.

Read this study.

Not sure what you mean by this. But I do hope I don’t get condemned/lectured for being open and honest about my struggles. I was looking more in terms of advice.

No Deborah, I’m not going to condemn you in any way, shape, or fashion. Do you think you’re the first person/couple faced with this dilemma? I take it that your life circumstances are creating the dilemma? If that is the case, then my advice to you is have confidence in your ability to adapt and to solve whatever percieved problems may arise. Todays percieved problems may not be so bad once you actually confront them. When I was married, my wife and I were faced with the dilemma of possible kids straight away. We just said “to hell with it, let’s go Catholic” and we got a honeymoon baby!! Once it had happened, it was fabulous. Like just about everyone, we managed just fine. We never once regretted that we made the birth of our children contingent upon anything.

No, not a “substitute” for intercourse. I believe a married couple must still have intercourse, but I don’t believe it to be wrong for them to climax in other ways from time to time.

Well, again, it is removing one little teensy weensy aspect of that openess to life. It’s a slippery slope that opens the mind to making all sorts of compromises.

Sigh

No, don’t sigh Deborah. You wanted advice, well mine is to stick to the Church’s teachings and I say it because the reasoning is brilliantly tight and logical and it shows an understanding of human nature. Go read Humanae Vitae. When Paul XI released it, he was pilloried. Well, if only the world had listened. His foresight was amazing.

Perhaps it was bad judgement on my part to actually be open regarding what exactly I disagree with, if people are just going to try to argue with me rather than give me advice…

If you can make a case that trumps the Church, by all means put it out there and defy all and sundry to refute it. If your conscience is “well formed” and by that I mean you have gotten your head around everything the Church teaches, and then you still find the arguments don’t stack up, then put it out there.

Being open about what it is you disagree with is not a mistake at all. It probably took great courage and I admire that. However, you need to accept that your thinking will be criticised. If you don’t want that, then just shut up and get on with whatever is suitable, just like squillions of others do. A well formed conscience is one that uses ‘reason’. And it is one which reasons honestly and that is the hard part. Too many people compromise their use of reason by rationalising. As the catechism says Return to your conscience, question it. . . . Turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do, see God as your witness@ 1779.

Read this.

 

[LilyM]

So where does that leave you? Spinning in circles, praying to God for help… but help doesn’t come. It doesn’t come.

I think that’s the thing that, ultimately, only you and I truly understand here. Not everyone is lucky enough to have the Holy Spirit descend on them in the night and help us understand. For those of us with this curse, the instruction is simply repeated, “Keep praying,” I.E., keep doing the thing that hasn’t worked for you despite years of trying. That’s the frustrating part.

St Monica prayed for decades for her son’s conversion. A very long time. And it worked, in spades - he became St Augustine. But only after about 20 years of her consistently praying with every fibre of her being.

So have you prayed about anything for 20 years? If you haven’t, how can you say it doesn’t work?

 

[grandfather]

The Church says X is sinful behavior. There are consequences to all sin. I do not understand why X is sinful and I want to engage in that behavior. Engaging in that behavior becomes an act of the will. If I am wrong and God’s Church is right I am willing to bear the consequences.

All actions have consequences, good or bad ones. It would be very foolish to think some action has no consequences.

God said if you eat the fruit of the tree you will die. Surely you will not die if you do this thing. Why should you die from eating a little bitty piece of fruit? Oh come on. Why should you die? You don’t really believe that nonsense.

When we choose to go down certain paths in life we never know where they will lead us. Sometimes it takes time to find out, or get to the consequence of the choice. The further apart in time the act is from the consequence the more difficult it is to connect cause and effect. If you put your hand on a hot stove and screamed in pain ten years later you would not know the cause of the pain. I remember the debate years ago on whether smoking cigarettes cause lung cancer. People who smoked did not want to believe it, because they were addicted and could not stop. If people got cancer after the first pack the case for the cause and effect would have been easy to make. If people got divorced after using a condom for a month, or breast cancer after a few months of taking the pill…

We may take our sins to the grave, but the consequences do not end there. They go on for generations.

Pilot said I am not guilty of this man’s blood. The crowd shouted let his blood be on us and our children. Their children’s children’s children still can not connect the consequences of their forebear’s action to their lives today.

Whoever sins is a slave to sin. They are addicted and they all try to justifiy themselves, explain to themselves why their behavior is moral, whatever the sin is. But the consequences will come.

When we choose to go down certain paths we also never know where the alternative path would have taken us. We experience something else. We can not know what we would have experienced, or what we are missing, by not taking path A instead of B.

If a person follows a mistaken conscience into sin that person will never know what he missed is like, holiness.

If we look at the lives of the saints we see people who made choices. There are none who decided to disobey the Church citing freedom of conscience. The path they chose was always to embrace the teachings of the Church and obey them. We can see where their paths of obedience took them.

A husband and wife join themselves together in great physical pleasure. These creatures God made join themselves together with God and the three create a new life. He makes a soul out of nothing and a new being who will live forever is made by the man, woman and God. This is a very holy thing. It is a power God gives us that the angels do not have. It is one of the greatest gifts God gives us, life itself, our very existence, the means by which we exist.

When we willfully put some artificial barrier to life in the way we are telling God we reject His gift by choice. We will never know the person we blocked from coming into existence and the generations we cut off from ourselves, meant to be loved by us, to increase love in our lives, and to love us for all eternity.

We reject God’s holy gift to us, because we see it as a burden, an incomvenience. It interferes with the lifestyle we prefer.

Keep your gift God. I reject it. I refuse it. It makes life to difficult for me. The child is of no value. I want something else. And I do not believe by choosing this path there will be any evil consequences to me. My conscience is clear. I believe your Church is wrong. If there are any consequences I am willing to bear them.

Let the consequences be on us and our children.

 

[HereAndThere]

Hi Debora,
I think the recommendation to study the relevant section of the CCC on conscience (1776-1802) is a good one, and I agree it is difficult to wade through, at least compared to a lot of the CCC, most of which I find a surprisingly easy and pleasant read. These sections are not easy - they are weighty; full of philosophical terms and oblique references, IMO. One thing to note from that section is that even if we are well-intentioned, educated, and seek to form a good conscience, we can still err (1786), and that error may not be free of guilt (1801).

Additionally, I think might help to look back a couple sections in the CCC to “THE MORALITY OF HUMAN ACTS” CCC (1749-1761) and study that as well. It’s the foundation for the other section on conscience. First you need to understand what goes into making an act morally good or not.

One thing to ponder is, you can have a moral choice that has completely good intentions, happy circumstances, and seems to have a good end result, and it can still be morally wrong. The end does not justify the means, and intentions alone are not enough.

Here are two references that helped me:
Conscience and the Obedience of Faith
and
More Than a Feeling: What it Means to Follow Your Conscience

From personal experience, I can say I have struggled with an issue where I thought I had the moral high ground and the church was wrong. I studied and studied, thought and prayed - honestly, I was studying to defend my position, not to listen with an open heart and mind. It was an incredible struggle to finally accept that I was wrong. Everything in me screamed that I was right. But let me tell you, the peace that came from finally saying “I’m wrong” - Priceless. I’m not all that “spiritual” usually, but I sure felt the Holy Spirit working that day, and could feel the grace of God in my life. I hope you find the same at the end of this road.

 

[severus68]

I am glad that someone else knows what it feels like, though I am sad that you bear the same burden. I wish everything were crystal clear.

Have you sought a spiritual adviser?

Hi Debora,

Surely you knew the kind of responses you would get although you specified that you did not want a discussion on contraception. Please do not leave the Church whatever has been said to you about mortal sin, excommunication etc. I think VeritasLuxMea responded in the best way in the circumstances and per your request. We all struggle sometimes with some of the teachings of the Church ( not all on sexuality). Of course, there are those holier than us who have no struggle and accept everything without any question. I agree with the advice to keep praying.

 

[Spirithound]

I wouldn’t say “reject” is the right word, because that indicates that I have a choice in the matter.

My conscience wasn’t in accordance with it, whether I wanted it to be or not. That’s not rejection, that’s just fact. Of course, I could follow the teaching anyway and ignore my own judgement, but that wouldn’t change my conscience or the fact that I would still think those things aren’t wrong.

I must certainly affirm that you have a choice in the matter. The choice occurs when you choose what elements you are going to use to form your conscience, and what weight you are going to give each of them. Let me ask you, if the Church has spoken clearly on an issue, is there any reason not to take that as the weightiest element?

Is “conscience” then basically just the voice of God?

So if someone’s “conscience” is telling them to do something that is not exactly in line with a Church teaching, is it right to say that it’s not actually the person’s conscience at play here, but the person’s “feelings?”

Conscience can be thought of as the “voice of God” in that the well-formed conscience will be in accord with God’s will. However, conscience cannot be thought of as the voice in God in that it is not akin to inspiration.

I would say “no” to your second question. “Conscience” is certainly that thing that tells us whether we can or cannot do a certain act. The question is whether one’s feelings rule one’s conscience, or whether one’s intellect rules one’s conscience.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Well Debora, I’ll be the first person here to sympathize with you…

Not necessarily on these matters, but the idea in general… there are a couple of areas in which neither God nor I have been able to sway my conscience in accordance with Church teaching or what I understand to be Church teaching. Of course that is amplified due to the fact that we have so many theologians who disagree about what Church teaching really is, which kinda backs you into a corner. For example, on the subject of sexuality, is Christopher West accurately portraying the Church’s views, or is Ron Conte? I have read both, they disagree, and I have not a clue in the world who is supposed to be right. Try to ask questions here and there’s really no reasonable discussion to be had IMHO. That’s just an aside, my issues are mostly not related to sexuality.

Back on topic… if Church teaching and your conscience clashes,what are you to do? I don’t know. I’ve been looking for the answer to that for years now, and I’ve got none. It’s a heck of a predicament: your conscience cannot seem to abandon the Church, but the Church certainly does not want you to abandon your conscience either, right?

So where does that leave you? Spinning in circles, praying to God for help… but help doesn’t come. It doesn’t come.

I think that’s the thing that, ultimately, only you and I truly understand here. Not everyone is lucky enough to have the Holy Spirit descend on them in the night and help us understand. For those of us with this curse, the instruction is simply repeated, “Keep praying,” I.E., keep doing the thing that hasn’t worked for you despite years of trying. That’s the frustrating part.

When reading any subject on sexual Catholic morality, it is best to look for books that have “Nihil Obstat” and “Imprimatur” these mean that the text is free of doctrinal error.

I know that Archbishop Chaput has endoresed Christopher West’s Book “Good News on sex and Marriage”

John Kippley has a good book as well, it also carries an Imprimatur.

There are good volumes available.

 

[Bookcat]

The phrase: Church vs conscience is a misnomer.

 

[Bookcat]

The phrase: “conscience vs Church issue” …is rather in the arena of misnomers.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

As contraception is a de fide teaching I would only caution that denial of a de fide teaching carries with it an excommunication latae sententia.

Let’s not get carried away here. It doesn’t work like that. What you’re referring to is not meant to include average Catholics struggling with aspects of the faith.

 

[Leegal]

Let’s not get carried away here. It doesn’t work like that. What you’re referring to is not meant to include average Catholics struggling with aspects of the faith.

It was intended as a caution. It was not a statement of judgment of the person. If you reject a teaching, autonymously and claim conscience, in error you may be excommunicated.

I did not say she was excommunicated. I was passing on possible information as to what may be an outcome IF she were in denial.

Respectfully submitted.

 

[dailey]

As I’ve stated in my OP, I have prayed over this very much.

I’m not trying to justify anything, and as my OP states, I’m just looking for some advice… perhaps maybe someone will give me some new insight I haven’t heard before. I figured it wouldn’t hurt to ask. A couple members posted some links for me and that led me to ask another question that I’m currently waiting on for a response. It’s on the post above yours.

I hear what you are saying. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I believe you are the same person who has discussed this subject several times already? (I remember it was someone with an actual picture of themselves as their avatar). At any rate, you have gotten excellent answers/advice, etc…but you seem to keep questioning and doubting.

MY advice…just let it go. And I don’t mean that in a harsh way. Just accept it, stop talking about it, trust in God…and let it go. That’s what I would do if I were in your situation. I sincerely hope you can come to peace with this. God grants his graces all the time…let him do so with you.

 

[sw85]

If your doctor tells you don’t drink arsenic, that seems to me like a pretty good reason not to drink arsenic.

Why then would you ignore the advice of your spiritual doctor?

It takes monumental hubris to think that generation after generation of saints, doctors, monks, etc., who literally dedicated their entire lives to prayer and the discernment of truth, got everything wrong for like a thousand years – and that we, in our degenerate apostate age of barbarism and ignorance, have nevertheless figured it out, while leading lives that are by every rational metric markedly less holy than those of previous eras. Please don’t make that mistake. Trust in the Church, which alone is protected from error.

 

[Ender]

Back on topic… if Church teaching and your conscience clashes,what are you to do? I don’t know. I’ve been looking for the answer to that for years now, and I’ve got none. It’s a heck of a predicament: your conscience cannot seem to abandon the Church, but the Church certainly does not want you to abandon your conscience either, right?

This is the real question being asked. The question of contraception is simply one example of how our consciences often run afoul of Church teaching. I don’t diminish the significance of this situation for the individual involved, but the real issue here is about conscience, not sexuality.

This is what the Catechism says: “*Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions.” *(1782) If we stop there and look no further we could believe that, so long as we think what we are doing is right, we are free to do it regardless of what the Church teaches. That is, the individual conscience is primary. Clearly, however, this cannot be true.

1786 -* Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

*It is obvious from this that not every judgment made in good conscience will be right. Not surprisingly, the fact that we are comfortable with whatever decisions we make does not suffice to make those decisions moral.

1790* … it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts…*
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. …
1792* Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, … assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience,… these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.*

What can be concluded from all this? First, it seems what your spiritual adviser said was wrong: we are not free to follow our conscience wherever it may lead. A conscience is not a get-out-of-jail-free card and it is not unreasonable to assume you will be held accountable for actions you take in rejection of Church teaching.

*“Conscience is a judgment of reason” *and sometimes our judgments are faulty.

To the affirmation that one has a duty to follow one’s conscience is unduly added the affirmation that one’s moral judgment is true merely by the fact that it has its origin in the conscience. But in this way the inescapable claims of truth disappear, yielding their place to a criterion of sincerity, authenticity and “being at peace with oneself”, so much so that some have come to adopt a radically subjectivistic conception of moral judgment. … There is a tendency to grant to the individual conscience the prerogative of independently determining the criteria of good and evil and then acting accordingly. (JPII, Veritatis Splendor 32)

Ender

 

[Debora123]

I hear what you are saying. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I believe you are the same person who has discussed this subject several times already? (I remember it was someone with an actual picture of themselves as their avatar). At any rate, you have gotten excellent answers/advice, etc…but you seem to keep questioning and doubting.

I have discussed the subject of contraception before, to try to see if I was missing anything important that I didn’t know of already.

But I have never discussed the issue of conscience and following the direction my spiritual adviser gives me, which is what this thread is actually about. I didn’t even mention contraception in my OP, and only brought it up because someone asked. Though I see now that I shouldn’t have.