what should I know about the importance of baptism?

[japhy]

Okay, that sounds like then something very different than what one conjures up in their mind when they hear “works”, I appreciate the explaination.

Does anyone have any examples of these works other than going to Church? (which, does not sound like work per say to me)

The reason I ask, is could someone say Baptism falls under this word “works” as understood by christians?

Why was I told going to Church is a “work”? Was I getting bad information?

I would say you got bad information. Some Christians think that doing anything, in relation to your salvation, is wrong. They don’t consider believing or having faith to be a “work” (although how they believe without actually doing anything is a miracle!); to them, everything else, be it baptism, Communion, going to church, etc., is a “work”, and if you think your salvation is dependent upon them, you’re belittling the work that Jesus did for you on the cross that you could never have done. I guess they also don’t consider repenting to be a “work”. How convenient for them.

Nevermind, for them, that Jesus said we must do the will of his Father. Yes, Jesus also said “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:29)… but what good is a belief if it is not manifested by an action? (See what James wrote in my reply a couple posts back.) If you believe in Jesus, whom God has sent, should you not also do what Jesus commands? And if you believe in Jesus, why not also the Church he established? So then, when Peter stood up on Pentecost and said “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins” (Acts 2:38), he was commanding a work. Either the Church today (and then) is (and was) right, or the Church today (and then) is (and was) dead wrong, and Scripture is silent on correcting Peter’s big Pentecost mistake.

So then, what does the Catholic Church mean when it refers to good works?

Spiritual works of mercy (e.g. admonishing the sinner, praying for the living and the dead, comforting the sorrowful, instructing the ignorant); corporal (bodily) works of mercy (e.g. clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the imprisoned); prayer, fasting, and almsgiving; worshiping Almighty God on every Sunday and other day of obligation at Mass, with the whole Body of Christ; receiving Holy Communion at least once a year (during the Easter season); receiving the Sacrament of Penance at least once a year.

All these (and more) build up the Church and Her individual members.

 

[notsmart]

What does it mean when you say “peters big pentecost mistake”?

I thought Pentecost was a really big thing for Christians. What was the mistake?

 

[japhy]

What does it mean when you say “peters big pentecost mistake”?

I meant that if Peter telling people to do something for their salvation (repenting and being baptized for the forgiveness of their sins) was a mistake, the Bible is entirely silent about it.

But it wasn’t wrong. Peter was right. The Jews did need to do something. Baptism in water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a work, and it’s a work commanded by the Lord, for the forgiveness of our sins.

 

[Publisher]

Hello Publisher, I missed your reply to me- I am sorry.

So, you are saying that wine and bread is an optional practice to do in your faith? I never knew this belief before. It seems everyone I have spoken with calls it either Last Supper, or Eucharist, or Holy Communion, or Communion. I thought this was a central element amoung christians. That makes me wonder more.

Thank you for explaining your view on Baptism. It is something I would have to think about, because you provide a reason why you do this.

In some Meetings where the membership is “convinced” from other groups, it is “optional”…and in some groups…such as “California Yealy Meeting of Friend’s Church”, so is water baptism.

True communion is an inward experience. It has been Friend’s witness that the “outward forms” used by many Christian groups were never intended to continue. As the early disciples continued to worship in the Temple and perform certain Jewish rites, which later were dispensed with as no longer being necessary, Friends do not believe “rites” and “ceremonies” were to be performed on our behalf by anyone…we are able to approach God direct through the ministry of Christ, with no need for “outward forms” which dispense “grace”…grace is dispensed by His Hands directly to us without need of ceremony performed on our behalf by a priest or minister…He Himself has done all “ceremonial work” for us and split the veil which hid the Holy of Holies opening the Way through His work. Each of us can approach Him directly as a “nation of priests”…a “royal priesthood” of believers.

Those who wish to participate in “outward forms”, we have no problem with…but the “rites” and “ceremonies” only point to the Inward Reality, they are not the Reality itself.

 

[notsmart]

What does it mean when you say “the Church Jesus established”?

What am I not understanding here? There are lots of churches. I simply took interest in the Catholic faith, for some reasons like their stand on abortion, their longevity, and my thought that they were the oldest church, but - on another thread- someone is talking about Orthodoxy and I simply thought that meant “right belief” and now I think it means something else, because someone is leaving the Catholic Church for what they call the Orthodox Church, which I am guessing is a stricter version of Catholic or something? I did not know there was a different kind.

 

[notsmart]

I missed your reply again Publisher, and I am not doing it on purpose. Okay, so inward signs of reality are expressed outwardly in any ritual, but it does not become the reality. And, furthermore its not a requirement of any kind.

I hope I got that right.

 

[Publisher]

I missed your reply again Publisher, and I am not doing it on purpose. Okay, so inward signs of reality are expressed outwardly in any ritual, but it does not become the reality. And, furthermore its not a requirement of any kind.

I hope I got that right.

For Friends, no “outward form” can substitute for the Inward Reality of experience. Each facet of our lives become ‘sacramental’…each meal is an opportunity to “eat with Him” and experience His grace. Each kind word and loving deed is of more worth to us than a ritual which offers no opportunity of change in our lives…to conform to His likeness and echo the words of Paul…“it is not I who live, but Christ who lives within me…”

If rituals and ceremonies produce such “Inward” change, then by all means do not refrain from participating in them…but they only point to the One who “speaks to our condition”…they point to the One who “baptizes you with fire and the Holy Spirit”.

Friends have a unique understanding, that I readily admit…but it is one of Experiencing the Light Within…the Living Christ…the Inner Word.

 

[japhy]

What does it mean when you say “the Church Jesus established”?

Jesus established a single Church (cf. Matt. 16:18). This Church is one, holy, catholic (universal), and apostolic. The Catholic Church believes it is that one Church. The Catholic Church is comprised of many local churches (dioceses, which in turn have even more local churches, parishes) that are all in union with the Church of the diocese of Rome (whose bishop is the Pope). While they may have different particular laws and liturgical rites (the Roman Rite differs from the Byzantine Rite), they are united in the catholic faith and worship.

What am I not understanding here? There are lots of churches.

There are many “Churches” and many institutions that call themselves “churches”. It should make you wonder why Church A and Church B both claim to be the Church Jesus started but can’t seem to agree on anything!

As for “orthodox” vs. “Orthodox”, there are many Churches that are called “Orthodox Churches” (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, etc.). The word “orthodox” means “right belief”. The Catholic Church is “orthodox” in that it holds the catholic (universal) and orthodox (right, proper) faith.

The “Orthodox Churches” do not believe in some things that the Catholic Church believes in, such as the primacy of the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) and his infallibility in particular circumstances, as well as certain doctrines of the Church about Mary, the Mother of God.

 

[RobHom]

What does it mean when you say “the Church Jesus established”?

For Roman Catholics… it is concrete belief that Christ passed on a special mission to Peter, who was the first Pope, in that Christ charged him with the mission to build His Church. It is found in Mathew 18: 15-19 drbo.org/chapter/47016.htm Virtually every Christian Bible says the same exact thing…but non-Catholics can’t or won’t accept the fact of the Apostolic Succession and that Peter was the first Pope…despite all evidence to the contrary. Catholicism is the “Church that Jesus Christ established”.

What am I not understanding here? There are lots of churches. I simply took interest in the Catholic faith, for some reasons like their stand on abortion, their longevity, and my thought that they were the oldest church, but - on another thread- someone is talking about Orthodoxy and I simply thought that meant “right belief” and now I think it means something else, because someone is leaving the Catholic Church for what they call the Orthodox Church, which I am guessing is a stricter version of Catholic or something? I did not know there was a different kind.

The “Orthodox” Church that Christy74 is going to is Catholic, it is an Eastern Rite Catholic Church. It is not “stricter”…they are much the same except when it comes to one or two fine points of theology. The Catholic Church is the oldest Christian Church in the world…it was established by Christ. And as Christ Himself stated…“the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.

The Roman Catholic Church is the “Latin Rite”, the Orthodox Rite Churches, while they are as Catholic as Roman Catholicism, they are of the Eastern Orthodox Rite. There are several of them, and historically they have been more regional…like the Greek Orthodox, the Melkites were predominantly arabic peoples, the Russian Orthodox…Russians, and so on.

Hope that helps!

 

[notsmart]

Today was exhausting.

I am finding that, many things here I am learning make sense when explained, but other things dont- like why in the world God would make this so hard for someone to find “his true Church”

If I had not come here, on a lark basically, well- maybe not so much a lark but, how would I ever be able to decide what to do if I wanted to simply get baptised and be a christian?

Why would God make it so very hard like this?

Do we have to prove our Love by means of serious study first?

I am starting to wonder if it is a good thing to continue studying.

I dont mind trying, but someone told me about formal classes, and I am not advocating ignorance, but I just think this is getting a bit overwhelming for someone who simply thought I should be thinking about getting baptised, and know why I am doing it, what I am actually doing,ect.

 

[notsmart]

For Friends, no “outward form” can substitute for the Inward Reality of experience. Each facet of our lives become ‘sacramental’…each meal is an opportunity to “eat with Him” and experience His grace. Each kind word and loving deed is of more worth to us than a ritual which offers no opportunity of change in our lives…to conform to His likeness and echo the words of Paul…“it is not I who live, but Christ who lives within me…”

If rituals and ceremonies produce such “Inward” change, then by all means do not refrain from participating in them…but they only point to the One who “speaks to our condition”…they point to the One who “baptizes you with fire and the Holy Spirit”.

Friends have a unique understanding, that I readily admit…but it is one of Experiencing the Light Within…the Living Christ…the Inner Word.

I like your second to last paragraph, a lot. You are not saying its wrong to do these rituals, and even okay if someone feels a change from them. This is something that hits a cord with me, as to my heart.

 

[japhy]

I am finding that, many things here I am learning make sense when explained, but other things dont- like why in the world God would make this so hard for someone to find “his true Church”

God didn’t make it hard. It was the people who went around to His True Church (even in the times of the Apostle Paul!) and spread lies, who made it hard.

Do we have to prove our Love by means of serious study first? I am starting to wonder if it is a good thing to continue studying.

Do not turn down the gifts of intellect and wisdom. God gave you a brain that works as well as it does for a reason.

You do not have “prove your love by means of serious study”, but you do have an obligation to seek the Truth and believe it. This is easier for some people than for others. Be receptive to the grace of God.

 

[notsmart]

In what ways can I be more receptive to the Grace of God?

I am guessing now, just a few for starters:

Prayer
Reading the bible
Asking myself if I am doing what Jesus asks of those who chose to follow him

?

Any other ideas?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Primarily, I am interested in Catholic replies, but I am interested in all replies if you can tell me your faith so I can compare the beliefs properly.

What does it mean for you? How is it done specifically? Is there a way it must be done?

Our Lutheran tradition holds that Holy Baptism is the ordinary means of spiritual regeneration for Christian communities. It brings entrance both into the invisible Church and the visible congregation. It gives new life, forgiveness of sins, and grants the gift of faith. It is done by sprinkling, pouring, or immersing with water in the Name of the Triune God.

I am not baptised, so its a question I sometimes wonder about.

I am not sure I ever will, but if I do I want to hear more about it.

Thanks!

Are you Christian?

 

[notsmart]

I am not a christian, and I always thought you needed baptism to call yourself one. I am leaning on the christian religion, but its sounding like I need to find more access to grace, because its a serious matter of disagreement amoungst them all.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I am not a christian, and I always thought you needed baptism to call yourself one. I am leaning on the christian religion, but its sounding like I need to find more access to grace, because its a serious matter of disagreement amoungst them all.

What do you mean by finding more access to grace?

 

[notsmart]

What do you mean by finding more access to grace?

I dont really know what it means to a christian, but apparently it helps to understand how to sort through the many different ideas that many christians hold to.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I dont really know what it means to a christian, but apparently it helps to understand how to sort through the many different ideas that many christians hold to.

It means to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead. Everything else that we do should be secondary to that basic confession of faith.

 

[notsmart]

It means to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead. Everything else that we do should be secondary to that basic confession of faith.

But, this definition of grace does not seem to be the same as what someone else described to me. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like something you must be receptive to for one, and somethings you do, (I guessed, prayer, reading the bible) were ways to be more receptive to Gods Grace, that surely he will bestow to anyone seeking it, even if they dont know how to do it.

I dont know how a simple confession of faith can be done without knowing to what you are really confessing to. I understand, that what you lay out here is what I see as the basic christian premise for their faith. However, as I said before, I am not a christian, but desiring to lean on christianity. So, for someone like me, what you say makes no sense. I might as well stop now.

 

[TriuneUnity]

But, this definition of grace does not seem to be the same as what someone else described to me. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like something you must be receptive to for one, and somethings you do, (I guessed, prayer, reading the bible) were ways to be more receptive to Gods Grace, that surely he will bestow to anyone seeking it, even if they dont know how to do it.

I dont know how a simple confession of faith can be done without knowing to what you are really confessing to. I understand, that what you lay out here is what I see as the basic christian premise for their faith. However, as I said before, I am not a christian, but desiring to lean on christianity. So, for someone like me, what you say makes no sense. I might as well stop now.

There’s nothing that you can “do” to be receptive to the gift of faith. God does it for you. If you feel that Christianity is true; that you are a sinner in need of God’s forgiveness, and that Christ is your Savior, then the Spirit is already at work in you. He who began a good work in you will finish that work. Praying, reading the Scriptures, etc, will no doubt be helpful, but faith is not a step-by-step program that you follow and eventually arrive at. It’s not a program or method. It’s a free gift that God has given 2000 years ago at the cross. It’s true whether you believe it or not.