What should I think about Intelligent Design?

[Ion]

What’s wrong with being extremely conservative? And what’s wrong with believing in a young earth? even the Church hasn’t decided that one. Literalistic? Like what? All the miracles Jesus actually did or just the book of Genesis?

Peace,
Ed

Nothing bad at all, but their problem is in the other direction: they lead themselves like the jewish people, trying to live by the book. They are not able to understand Virgin Mary. The origin of their behaviour is in law and not in love. (My personal opinion.)

 

[catholictiger]

catholictiger

**God isn’t a designer he is a creator. **

What have you created without a design?

God infused the universe with certain laws at the very moment of creation. God might have created it with other laws, but did not. Why did He choose one set of laws and not another? Because he had a purpose, and the purpose means that He must have a design. He created the universe to bring about the human race, so that we may get to know Him, love Him, and be happy with Him forever. If that’s creation without a design, I’ll eat your hat!

let me try to explain this, again please see John Haught he would better explain this then I would.

But God doesn’t design the universe like a watch marker would, he doesn’t set into motion certain things that binds human beings to act in a certain way because that would deny our freedom and revelation. God rather is a creator of the universe he gives it direction to an end. Even as one of our Catholic brethren brought up earlier in this thread CCC 302-308 doesn’t explicitly say that God is a designer or that he designed the universe. Understanding what I understand about philosophy natural theology, and primary and secondary causality. God is bringing things to a perfection the universe is on an journey to perfection just like we are in the Christian life.

Plus I think all of the intelligent design which has its roots in fundamentalist protestant theology posits that God is a designer of the universe and not a creator of the universe. I think all the fine tuning arguments, the how did something so complex come out of something so simple, the how did something with such a low chance come out of the universe, are not good arguments for the existence of God, but to the untrained mind (not saying you guys are not trained) it is a very compelling argument. God did will that human beings come out of the universe but it isn’t like God was like some watch maker who at the beginning of time fine tuned the universe to make us come out of it. While in a sense that is true it is wrong to look at it in this way. God isn’t this designer who at the beginning of time set off some chain of reactions, rather he is someone who is transcendent to all secondary causality.

Also I hope you guys go a-little deeper then the Cathecism on these issues, because granted the Catechism isn’t clear on this stuff and there are many complex issues in Catholicism that the Catechism will not outright answer it will just point out how God can’t be or how things can’t be.

You must understand Thomas on this stuff, he never explained God as a designer or some watch maker or some fine tuner. God is the uncaused caused the unmoved mover, he is the one who is responsible for the existence of us and the universe.

God being a designer is not a long standing Catholic theological tradition. God creates and sustains existence. God allows the natural unfolding of the universe to occur. (if you don’t believe this read augustine) He uses the natural order of things to bring out his will and work divine providence in. Yes there are moments when he clearly stepped in but when comes to natural processes like evolution cosmology and all that stuff allows the natural process of nature to happen.

You are correct to say that there is design in the universe when God creates the universe, but it is wrong to look at God as this designer who fine tunes everything. God creates everything yes but it is better to look at him as a creator of the universe who sustains his creation.

There may be no issues with seeing God as a designer but Catholic thought for years has been God as a creator it hasn’t been till recently when Protestants tried to argue for God that this God as designer stepped into the picture.

 

[catholictiger]

those who are trying to argue that God is a designer.

Why would a perfect designer create a universe that has imperfections in it, chaos, death, war, violence, murder abortion. Why would a God design a universe that would have this come into it. Lets even look outside of just human action. Stars and Planets and Galaxies have very violent and chaotic life cycles, why would God create such a place? its seems very contrary to a perfect designer.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Response from " C "

when I think of I.D. I think of protestants who argue that God is the designer of the universe that he is responsible for things that can’t be explained by science. I.D. use things like the eye to say that evolution can’t explain how this complexity came about. The major problem for me with Intelligent design is that it views God in a different way then most Catholic Philosophers and theologians do. God creates the universe, not as a first cause in a series of chains but rather a cause that transcends all causes.

My response.
I admit I have not read any " I.D. " literature. For me, to say that God created the universe and governs it providentially, directing it to its final end, is the same as saying God is an Intelligent Designer.

" C " again

“reaching mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well”. For “all are open and laid bare to his eyes”, even those things which are yet to come into existence through the free action of creatures. "

this idea that the uncaused cause transcends all causality.

My response
Correct, God transcends all causality because he is the Primary Cause and created beings can only be Secondary causes. Yet his causality operates in every created being at all times, especially in that he supports and causes the existence of all beings every moment and directs all things to their proper ends. This is one of the difficult points in Thomism and in Church doctrine and deserves a more full discussion.

" C " here.

think of it this way, you have a set of dominoes which are causing each-other to fall over, you can’t say that the ultimate reason the dominoes fall is because of other dominoes. This is absurd and doesn’t make sense, dominoes can’t be the own reason why they are falling, there must be a cause that transcends the dominoes to explain why they fall.

My response
And I agree absolutely. But read the S.T., Part 1, ques 103-109. The question is not so simple.

" C " again

Same thing goes with causality in nature, you can’t explain the existence of causality with causality itself, there must be something that transcends secondary causality.

My response
Yes. But that Primary Cause is " here and now " operating in every act in universe, at every moment.

" C " again

My point is that God is the reason we have existence, he created us and sustains us. The idea that God designed the universe to bring about something is wrong. Why would a perfect designer who can’t make mistakes create a universe which has death, evil, chaos and will probably end violently. I think of God more in final causality terms, God created the universe not that so the universe could be perfect but rather the universe brings his beloved creators (ensouled human beings) to him and the universe works towards a final end.

My response
God governs the world by his providence according to Divine Purpose, this makes God the Intelligent Designer. This does not mean he causes evil. Rather he has foreknowledge of every event, act and thought; for which he provides " built in " causes to bring about his desired effect. He permits evil to protect free will. God’s causality is that of Prime mover of every event in all beings. His action is more direct in inanimate beings. For animate, non-rational beings he does this through the powers he provides them, in animate, thinking beings he does this not only through the powers he gives but by inspirations as well.

" C " again

God isn’t a designer he is a creator.

My response
He is creator and designer

" C " again

so again I don’t believe that God had “designed” the universe, he has created the universe and he has designed it for the finial him which is in him and all things being in perfect union with God.

My resonse
Again, I say he is the Primary cause of every event and thought, the sustainer in existence, and the director of the entire universe ( final cause).

" C " again

BTW if God was a designer it would have be perfect on day 1 and never become imperfect.

My response
I don’t see how that follows at all. He obviously " designed " the world he wanted to make. As such, it as perfect as he wished it to be. But since he is infinite in power and knowledge, he could have made another universe. It too would have been as perfect as he wished it to be. Linus2nd

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[rossum]

Christianity is the only proven religion.

You need to look further: Buddhists ‘really are happier’

Love God and love your neighbour. This is how you are supposed to live.

[The Buddha said] “Love others as you love yourself.” Bhadramayakara vyakarana sutra, 91.

rossum

 

[Charlemagne_II]

catholictiger

**You are correct to say that there is design in the universe when God creates the universe, but it is wrong to look at God as this designer who fine tunes everything. God creates everything yes but it is better to look at him as a creator of the universe who sustains his creation.

There may be no issues with seeing God as a designer but Catholic thought for years has been God as a creator it hasn’t been till recently when Protestants tried to argue for God that this God as designer stepped into the picture. **

From St. Thomas (Summa Theologica I:103:1 ad 3um): “The natural necessity inherent in things that are determined to one effect is impressed on them by the Divine power which directs them to their end, just as the necessity which directs the arrow to the target is impressed on it by the archer, and does not come from the arrow itself. There is this difference, however, that what creatures receive from God is their nature, whereas the direction imparted by man to natural things beyond what is natural to them is a kind of violence. Hence, as the forced necessity of the arrow shows the direction intended by the archer, so the natural determinism of creatures is a sign of the government of Divine Providence”

Again:

“I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!” (Psalm 139:14–17).

 

[Charlemagne_II]

rossum

[The Buddha said] “Love others as you love yourself.” Bhadramayakara vyakarana sutra, 91.

What does the Buddha say about God? Please give quotes with book, chapter, and verse.

 

[rossum]

rossum

[The Buddha said] “Love others as you love yourself.” Bhadramayakara vyakarana sutra, 91.

What does the Buddha say about God? Please give quotes with book, chapter, and verse.

Buddhism has many gods. All gods are included among the “others” who you should love. That includes the Abrahamic God. In this context we should love all living beings, and gods are living beings.

rossum

 

[clem456]

Buddhism has many gods. All gods are included among the “others” who you should love. That includes the Abrahamic God. In this context we should love all living beings, and gods are living beings.

rossum

Hey, there’s an element of Christian truth in there. Maybe we have something in common.

 

[catholictiger]

our response to eachother will become long I will only qoute those things I disagree with, anything I skip I agree with.

My response.
I admit I have not read any " I.D. " literature. For me, to say that God created the universe and governs it providentially, directing it to its final end, is the same as saying God is an Intelligent Designer.

before we go into this lets get some clarification of terms

what I see as designer is like a set of dominoes or a chain reaction scientist set up for fun. For example A mentos drops into a can which causes the soda to overflow hitting a switch which turns on a fosit of water. The water filling up a cup causes the balance to stop being even. The balance then causes a ball to fall down a ramp which then hits a robot ect. When I think of God as a designer I think of a God who has fine turned the universe in such a way that humans would come out earth would be created and so on and so forth. He is creating it like a set of dominoes which have to go in a certain way and fall in a certain way. I’m not sure if this really agrees with good natural theology. Can we say we are free when God has set up the universe to work in a specific way.

Note: if you believe design to be a different thing please let me know. I would hate us to be arguing about two different views of design.

I see God doing it a-little more like this. He is causing the universe to exist for all eternity, he is the uncaused caused the unmoved mover and is always actuality. He is constantly for all eternity upholding all things that have potentiality. God is the law giver for the universe and not the guy who sets up a chain of dominoes. He sets up laws and directions for the universe to follow that will lead to its final end (everything in union with him) and he governs his creation like a parent may “govern” children or parent their children. Parents don’t make their kids robots and make them do certain things so they can become a great doctor or something. Rather they guide their children then given them guidelines rules, and laws to follow in hopes that they have a successful life. God works in the same way but he knows that his rules will work and how exactly they will work.

I’ll say this before I move on to the next quote, any philosophical/theological explanation must explain why there is evil choas and violence, and at the same time must explain how we can have freedom in this model.

God governs the world by his providence according to Divine Purpose

yes the final cause, union with God

this makes God the Intelligent Designer.

no it doesn’t, but I need to make sure I know what your talking about with design in creation.

I believe God directs the universe (which would allow intervention and governance of the world) to its final end, and this final end is perfection and union with Go.

This does not mean he causes evil. Rather he has foreknowledge of every event, act and thought; for which he provides " built in " causes to bring about his desired effect. He permits evil to protect free will.

If God has designed the universe it would seem to necessitate that everything that happens in the universe is designed by God, so evil would be designed by God, which is absurd. My question to you how can God design the universe and at the same time allow it to go on its way, would that necessitate that there are parts of the cosmos that are not designed? Any thing God designs must be perfect, if there is evil in this world and God cannot will evil or create evil how can God design everything in the cosmos?

I believe God giving the universe direction to a final end answers these questions. God allows evil to happen because of freedom and because in a mysterious way evil works towards a final end a better end.

My response
He is creator and designer

we need to make clear what you mean by designer. If you mean that God fine tunes the universe to make something come out of it then we have problems.

My response
I don’t see how that follows at all. He obviously " designed " the world he wanted to make. As such, it as perfect as he wished it to be. But since he is infinite in power and knowledge, he could have made another universe. It too would have been as perfect as he wished it to be. Linus2nd

Because of this

anything that is perfect can not become better, if it had to become better it couldn’t be considered perfect. If the universe is in motion if the universe is changing it means that you can’t say that at moment X the universe is perfect, with the exception of the final end. Now you could look at time as a whole and say with the entire view of the cosmos it is perfect, but to say that at this moment in time the universe is perfect denies the fact that the universe is moving towards its final end and the closer it gets to that the better its fulfilling its purpose anything that is moving towards its final end isn’t perfect.

I believe that God’s perfection works in this way he has created the universe for an end and when the universe reaches its final end it will be considered perfect, until it reaches that end the universe is still on its journey is still not perfect.

but I’m going to leave it at this, my response was kinda influence how atheist deal with these things, maybe I was wrong in putting it to you.

But again I believe God to be a creator who directs the universe towards its final end. He doesn’t design the universe because a perfect designer would create a perfect creation. Someone who creates something so that it will journey towards a final end doesn’t have to create something perfect from the get go, as long as that final end is perfect.

cut stuff its to long

 

[clem456]

But again I believe God to be a creator who directs the universe towards its final end. He doesn’t design the universe because a perfect designer would create a perfect creation. Someone who creates something so that it will journey towards a final end doesn’t have to create something perfect from the get go, as long as that final end is perfect.

cut stuff its to long

Without quibbling over the definition of “designer”…
God did create a perfect creation. God made everything, and “saw that it was good”.
God can not create imperfection.

It gets messy though, because…
God is love, and we are created in love.
So we are in relationship with God. We have a part in maintaining this relationship, pursuing perfection (holiness).
We chose (and continue to choose) to reject perfection.

But it seems to me that “design” indicates God’s plan in all things, including scientific discovery.

 

[catholictiger]

Without quibbling over the definition of “designer”…
God did create a perfect creation. God made everything, and “saw that it was good”.
God can not create imperfection.

It gets messy though, because…
God is love, and we are created in love.
So we are in relationship with God. We have a part in maintaining this relationship, pursuing perfection (holiness).
We chose (and continue to choose) to reject perfection.

But it seems to me that “design” indicates God’s plan in all things, including scientific discovery.

I understand what your saying and I never claimed that God created imperfection that is impossible, but what I’m claiming is God made laws and rules for the universe to follow that will lead us to perfect union with God.

what I’m rejecting is the notion that God set up the universe to act like dominoes that would go in a certain way because God designed it to go in that certain way. This removes the possibility of freedom because no matter what we do it doesn’t change the way God designed it to happen. I believe that God with his divine foreknowledge created the universe with a set of laws that allowed it to be free but that would necessitate that in the end creation would become one with God through both supernatural and natural processes.

I don’t think this view of God giving the universe rules to live by rejects anything scripture said or the Catechism says.

 

[clem456]

I understand what your saying and I never claimed that God created imperfection that is impossible, but what I’m claiming is God made laws and rules for the universe to follow that will lead us to perfect union with God.

what I’m rejecting is the notion that God set up the universe to act like dominoes that would go in a certain way because God designed it to go in that certain way. This removes the possibility of freedom because no matter what we do it doesn’t change the way God designed it to happen. I believe that God with his divine foreknowledge created the universe with a set of laws that allowed it to be free but that would necessitate that in the end creation would become one with God through both supernatural and natural processes.

I don’t think this view of God giving the universe rules to live by rejects anything scripture said or the Catechism says.

Yes I understand what you are saying also. Our free will in that relationship is the variable. God does not manipulate or micro-design us to worship him. But at the same time every atom moves with God’s knowlege. We can change the outcome of situations, but at the same time God knows we will do it, because He sees all time at once. That is the key for me in thinking of all this…time. God sees all things past, present, and future. at once, according to St Augustine.
So I don’t know, deep subject.

 

[catholictiger]

Yes I understand what you are saying also. Our free will in that relationship is the variable. God does not manipulate or micro-design us to worship him. But at the same time every atom moves with God’s knowlege. We can change the outcome of situations, but at the same time God knows we will do it, because He sees all time at once. That is the key for me in thinking of all this…time. God sees all things past, present, and future. at once, according to St Augustine.
So I don’t know, deep subject.

I agree completely and this is how I understand it.

I’m just trying to reject the claim that God designs the universe to where there is no freedom in it. I believe Intelligent Design creeps into that category a little to much.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

catholictiger

**Can we say we are free when God has set up the universe to work in a specific way. **

Yes, we can. Why not?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

rossum
**
Buddhism has many gods. All gods are included among the “others” who you should love. That includes the Abrahamic God. In this context we should love all living beings, and gods are living beings.**

But do you have any direct quotes from the Buddha about god(s)?

See the new thread I have started on this titled “Did the Buddha talk about God?”. Thanks.

 

[edwest2]

I agree completely and this is how I understand it.

I’m just trying to reject the claim that God designs the universe to where there is no freedom in it. I believe Intelligent Design creeps into that category a little to much.

“freedom” Like what?

Peace,
Ed

 

[clem456]

“freedom” Like what?

Peace,
Ed

Freedom as in free will

 

[catholictiger]

catholictiger

**Can we say we are free when God has set up the universe to work in a specific way. **

Yes, we can. Why not?

can we compare God’s setting up, design of the universe to a set of dominoes falling. AKA there is a pre planned specific way things in the universe will unfold, even human actions are planned?

 

[catholictiger]

“freedom” Like what?

Peace,
Ed

as clem said free will.