What should my stance be?

[TSB4]

My husband and I both agree we don’t want anymore children. His reasoning is because we already have four and that’s enough. My reason is partially I worry what others will think (I know it’s wrong) and partially because its draining just having four. We don’t own out own home yet, that plays a major role. Also, my husband has been laid off for some time now and is in process of starting his own business. So the stress is pretty high, this plays a role as well. We don’t use ABC. However, he withdraws every single time we are intimate. Although we agreed no more kids, this makes me feel like we are doing something terribly wrong. I am not catholic yet, (on the fence about converting) (he’s a cradle catholic) but I still feel this shame come over me. It’s almost as if, something is giving me the urge to want to have another baby. Then I try to counteract that thought with “are you crazy?” We have tried NFP in the past. Before we moved we had an instructor who was great, but now we don’t have that. Also, the charting and checking was overwhelming for me. I guess any advice would be great. I’m really feeling lost. Is it God trying to open me up to having more children? Would he do that even in our circumstances? I want the best for our kids, and it scares me to have more thinking its possible that wont be an option.

 

[ahs]

Withdrawing is contraception, and it’s always a sin. So, your stance should be to avoid doing that. If you want to have sex with your husband, do that, and do it completely. If you want to have sex but don’t want another baby right now, then avoid having sex during the fertile period. Having an NFP instructor is great, but you don’t need one to use NFP.

My wife belongs to something called “Delphi Forums” where there is an NFP forum/board. There are MANY NFP instructors and experineced women on there who can help with reading your charts/signs/etc… Maybe that can help you.

 

[TSB4]

There really isn’t anyway I can control how he will choose to have sex. I have expressed to him how it makes me feel, but he still does it.

 

[TSB4]

Thank you for taking the time to come here and share your story! Please be assured of my prayers. It is good that you are honest in admitting that you are worried about what other people think. You admit you know it isn’t the right way to live your life, however it is HARD. It is good that you acknowledge that it is a stumbling block for you. You are not alone!

I can recall when I was trying to get pregnant with my last child I had being a little embarrassed myself wondering what people would think. Let’s be honest here no one wants to be embarrassed right? Everyone wants their friends and family and neighbors to be happy at the announcement of a new baby, and the idea that people would roll their eyes is off-putting. It has been many years and I can tell you now looking back that God is so very good! Dear one most of those people that rolled their eyes really are not in my life much at all, however my child is a person that I cannot imagine this world being without! I cringe at the thought of being without them in my life, just to avoid some uncomfortable moments.

That being said you have other issues, financial issues, job loss, stress problems, housing and these are not minor concerns. Your husband has to be on board too. You cannot guilt, nag or coerce him into fatherhood it has to be of his own free will, but you already knew that.

I think it is a wonderful thing that you feel God on your heart. Could He be calling you to have more children? Perhaps yes or perhaps no. One thing for sure I can say, is that He is calling you to be closer to Him! You have so much on your plate right now, draw closer to Jesus, draw close to Him and that will help you to make these big decisions. You cannot make a decision like this on your own or with your husband or with the help of some anonymous person like me on the internet. You need Our Lord Jesus Christ helping you. Make your day a prayer. Pray while washing dishes, pray while changing a diaper, pray while cooking, pray while at a stoplight…pray, pray, pray little prayers all day long it will transform your life. Then you will have more clarity on what to do.

Hope this helps a little, God bless you and prayers for your faith journey we could always use more Catholics and would LOVE to have you!

Jeremiah 29:11 ** “For I know well the plans I have in mind for you, says the Lord, plans for your welfare, not for woe! Plans to give you a future full of hope.” **

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I need to pray more. I would never force him into having more children, I respect his stance on the issue. However, our intimacy is the issue. Although we agree on not having kids, the withdrawal bothers me. NFP, while it is a good thing, it is very time consuming and most days I forgot to chart. It’s not workin for us.

 

[Xantippe]

“NFP, while it is a good thing, it is very time consuming and most days I forgot to chart. It’s not workin for us.”

Put your husband in charge of your chart and reminding you to take your temperature first thing in the morning and mucus last thing at night.

It’s not working for you because you’re not doing it.

If you don’t want another child right now, withdrawal is a terrible way to go about doing that.

Pull up some facts and figures on the effectiveness of withdrawal for your husband and show them to him. Alternately, take him to an OB appointment and have your OB explain to him (with finger puppets if necessary) that he’s being dumb.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t think we put more than 3 minutes, tops, into our charting, but experience helps a lot.

 

[TSB4]

“NFP, while it is a good thing, it is very time consuming and most days I forgot to chart. It’s not workin for us.”

Put your husband in charge of your chart and reminding you to take your temperature first thing in the morning and mucus last thing at night.

It’s not working for you because you’re not doing it.

If you don’t want another child right now, withdrawal is a terrible way to go about doing that.

Pull up some facts and figures on the effectiveness of withdrawal for your husband and show them to him. Alternately, take him to an OB appointment and have your OB explain to him (with finger puppets if necessary) that he’s being dumb.

When used “correctly” withdrawal is actually very effective. I’ve done the research in that aspect and so has he. This post wasn’t about the effectiveness, merely the moral aspect of it. Again, I can’t control how he chooses to go about it. I cannot control him. It all boils down to what he feels like doing.

 

[TSB4]

I don’t think we put more than 3 minutes, tops, into our charting, but experience helps a lot.

Experience is the key word here. We have no experience with charting and yes we aren’t doing it because Its confusing for me.

 

[Allegra]

When used “correctly” withdrawal is actually very effective. I’ve done the research in that aspect and so has he. This post wasn’t about the effectiveness, merely the moral aspect of it. Again, I can’t control how he chooses to go about it. I cannot control him. It all boils down to what he feels like doing.

??? What source did you find that suggested that withdrawl was even remotely effective? You better not move the crib to the basement any time soon!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

??? What source did you find that suggested that withdrawl was even remotely effective? You better not move the crib to the basement any time soon!

I’ll post some links for you when I’m on my computer, but yes, it’s actually far more effective than it used to be thought. My husband and I used it for the first year of our relationship, after talking to my doctor and doing a lot of research on the efficacy.

 

[Rau]

??? What source did you find that suggested that withdrawl was even remotely effective? You better not move the crib to the basement any time soon!

The following link includes a table giving effectiveness measures for various means of birth control, including Coitus Interruptus (withdrawal) and NFP (symptoms based fertility awareness). The effectiveness “typically” achieved, and achieved with perfect execution, are given. NFP is shown as massively more effective than coitus interruptus, but of course it means less sex and the need to do charting.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods

 

[Rau]

I’ll post some links for you when I’m on my computer, but yes, it’s actually far more effective than it used to be thought. My husband and I used it for the first year of our relationship, after talking to my doctor and doing a lot of research on the efficacy.

Interested to hear what the doctor said about effectiveness. I would think highly variable, given the need for judgement (under pressure!) on when to withdraw, and other individual characteristics such as propensity (or not) to emit some semen prior to climax, etc.

 

[TSB4]

Sometimes I wish I were brave enough to jut leave it in God’s hands. I dislike having to worry about my fertility each month. Furthermore, I really dislike when my husband withdraws.

 

[TSB4]

And isn’t it true in order for NFP to work, both partners have to be on board? As in, wanting to abstain? Suppose my husband doesn’t want to abstain during my fertile times, I’m not suppose to deny him. This has happened in the past. Of course he withdrew, but it’s just an added reason why NFP isn’t going to work for us.

 

[Xantippe]

“Suppose my husband doesn’t want to abstain during my fertile times, I’m not suppose to deny him. This has happened in the past. Of course he withdrew, but it’s just an added reason why NFP isn’t going to work for us.”

It seems like a pretty big issue that you never know what he’s going to do. And yes, it is OK to deny your husband, if he is making an unreasonable demand. What you are doing is not wrong, if he is withdrawing against your will, but it’s also not true that he has 100% carte blanche in deciding when the two of you are having sex. For one thing, why don’t you have 100% carte blanche in deciding when you get to have sex–i.e. real sex, not withdrawal sex? What the two of you are doing sounds very much like a one-way street. If his marital rights means that he gets to have you when he wants and how he wants, your marital rights mean you get to have sex with him when you want how you want, but I really don’t think it works that way in a sane Christian home. Prudence and reasonableness and basic charity have to enter into it, too. (Namely, if one of you has to get up in three hours, the baby’s sick, and one of you has been having tummy flu, it’s really not nice for the unaffected spouse to stand on their rights. That would be childish.)

Marriage counseling?

 

[Allegra]

Suppose my husband doesn’t want to abstain during my fertile times, I’m not suppose to deny him. This has happened in the past. Of course he withdrew, but it’s just an added reason why NFP isn’t going to work for us.

No one wants to abstain when they feel like having sex. Is there some reason that men are less capable than women of coming to the conclusion that they will refrain from having sex for a few days because they don’t want another baby?

If your husband has the attitude that you are the sex broker and you are the one telling him that he can’t have sex, then you will have problems with NFP. (It shouldn’t change the fact that it’s much more effective than what you are doing, but you will risk marital disharmony. On the other hand, I don’t know what you call it when a man demands that his wife have sex with him and then withdrawls against her conscience. It seems pretty disharmonious to me.)

When my husband and I first started NFP, he was under the delusion that it was my job to tell him when we could and couldn’t have sex. This made me really uncomfortable since it made it seem like this was all my decision and not ours as a couple. So, whenever he asks, I just take out the chart and show him the little white sticker with the baby on it and say something like, “Whatever you want, O, Master of the House!” He can decide that he doesn’t want another baby without me telling him and being the “sex boss” all the time. On the other hand, this would probably not work as well should a time come when we are in disagreement about whether we want another baby or not.

 

[maryjk]

And isn’t it true in order for NFP to work, both partners have to be on board? As in, wanting to abstain? Suppose my husband doesn’t want to abstain during my fertile times, I’m not suppose to deny him. This has happened in the past. Of course he withdrew, but it’s just an added reason why NFP isn’t going to work for us.

I can tell you what my stance would be.

I would tell my husband that I am not interested in sex if he is going to “withdrawal.” One time, I am unaware. After that, I would be upset enough with him for him to realize I would not put up with it again.

I would also commit to learning NFP, and keeping with it. It only takes a couple of minutes a day.

I would notify him of fertile an infertile days, and let him take it from there. Again, with the understanding that withdrawal is *not *an option.

 

[moon1234]

I can tell you what my stance would be.

I would tell my husband that I am not interested in sex if he is going to “withdrawal.” One time, I am unaware. After that, I would be upset enough with him for him to realize I would not put up with it again.

I would also commit to learning NFP, and keeping with it. It only takes a couple of minutes a day.

I would notify him of fertile an infertile days, and let him take it from there. Again, with the understanding that withdrawal is *not *an option.

Husband and wife as supposed to provide the matrimonial right when it is asked of the other. There should not be conditions, etc. (I will only have sex with you if you promise to do/not do “X”). The wife in this situation is fulfilling her marriage obligation to her husband. The ability to say “no” should only be used when the person doing the denying has a just reason.

This particular question comes up a lot in mixed marriages. The non-Catholic will wear a condom or be on birth control pills. The question is then “Should I allow the other spouse to have sex with me?” The universal answer is almost always that sex for the Catholic will not be immoral as long as the Catholic is not the one doing anything that is immoral or illicit.

As always, consult with your local Priest or call the diocese chancery and speak to someone whom you don’t know. That way they won’t personally know who you are if you are worried about discussing something private with your parish Priest.

 

[TSB4]

Well I haven’t had much of a sex drive anyway. My husband on the other hand, does. So I feel it’s unfair to tell him no, for any reason unless I’m in physical pain, which is rare. His attitude is, “if it happens, it happens” he doesn’t want to plan to have another baby, but he wouldn’t be necessarily upset if it did happen. Because in his mind, he feels like withdrawing has been working to prevent pregnancy. His whole whatever attitude makes me cringe. If my husband wanted another child, I would be willing to have another. But he withdraws which shows me he doesn’t. But withdrawing also makes me cringe.

 

[Xantippe]

moon1234 said:

“Husband and wife as supposed to provide the matrimonial right when it is asked of the other.”

The OP is not doing anything wrong doing as she is doing, but there is no “matrimonial right” to onanism with your spouse. The thing that the OP’s husband is doing is not his “matrimonial right,” any more than he has a matrimonial right to other non-procreative sexual acts. He is entitled to actual intercourse, which is not what he is doing.