What should the Church do next with the Liturgy?

[mosher]

stanley123:

I think that there is a saying that the rule of prayer is the rule of belief, something like that. Why have clown Masses, for example? I though that the clown was the symbol of a joke. Does that mean then that the Catholic Mass is supposed to be a joke? Then if the Catholic Mass is a joke, then perhaps other things such as the indissolublity of marriage are not to be taken seriously.
I noticed a lot of problems began just when the dropped the TLM. Just take a look at the numbers - don’t they tell us something has gone wrong? Then look a bit at the newspapers and the shame.
Was it this bad when you had the TLM? Its not just the one issue of annulments, its a whole lot of things.
To sum up, my personal opinion is in favor of a return to the TLM.

While I sympatise with what you are saying concerning lex orandi lex credendi I cannot justify your reasoning because they are logically invalid arguments. It is absolutly true that correlation does not prove causation. Your desire for solutions to the modern problems are laudable but the rational supporting them is irrational.

 

[netmilsmom]

fix:

What? No hand holding, orans posture, dancing or lay homilists? You are too legalistic.

 

[stanley123]

mosher:

While I sympatise with what you are saying concerning lex orandi lex credendi I cannot justify your reasoning because they are logically invalid arguments. It is absolutly true that correlation does not prove causation. Your desire for solutions to the modern problems are laudable but the rational supporting them is irrational.

I would contend the opposite. My personal opinion is that the breakdown since Vatican II, is due is some part at least to the elimination of the TLM. Like I said, the scandalous shows at the altar, including the clown Masses, the dancing girls, even the small changes, all go hand in hand to encourage a certain informality and casual approach to the Catholic religion. I don’t see it in any way irrational or illogical to infer from this that Catholics are supposed to take their religion a bit more lightly an a bit less seriously than before. After all, what other message are the Catholic authorities trying to get across when they introduce clowns into the Mass, clowning around at the altar?
An E. Orthodox Christian has also commented:
"The Roman liturgical tradition has disintegrated aesthetically, and as the beauty of worship disappears, so does awe. Prayer is a teacher, and minimized, modernized prayer fails to teach very much. It is our rich, historic, and theologically packed liturgical tradition that is the treasure of Orthodoxy…

Drop in on your local Roman Rite parish and witness hand-waving “praise” masses, cookies for children during the Eucharist, interpretive dancers fluttering down the aisles, lame “Peter, Paul and Mary”-style folk music, and all similar trappings of post-Vatican II worship. It’s not something we Orthodox want to go near. Nor do some Catholic churches’ New Age-flavored classes in Zen meditation and enneagram spirituality have much appeal to people who call themselves “Orthodox” for a reason…

Disneyland exists, but do we all want to move there? Unity with what? That’s what we need to ask…

The Orthodox liturgical tradition is too precious to be squandered to satisfy the ecumenist ambitions of any pope, Orthodox bishop, or committee of theologians. Years of fruitless “dialogue” won’t be redeemed by a disastrous reunion. As traditional Roman Catholics openly say, modern innovation has destroyed the sense of the sacred in contemporary Roman worship. Traditional Catholics often drive many miles to find one of the few remaining Roman churches that worship in a way that they think can even be called Catholic."
see
Part 1

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…52&postcount=37

Part 2

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…53&postcount=38

 

[JKirkLVNV]

stanley123:

Drop in on your local Roman Rite parish and witness hand-waving “praise” masses, cookies for children during the Eucharist, interpretive dancers fluttering down the aisles, lame “Peter, Paul and Mary”-style folk music, and all similar trappings of post-Vatican II worship. It’s not something we Orthodox want to go near. Nor do some Catholic churches’ New Age-flavored classes in Zen meditation and enneagram spirituality have much appeal to people who call themselves “Orthodox” for a reason…

This is inflammatory. This doesn’t happen in my parish or in any parish of which I’ve been a member. I’ve visited a couple of parishes which made my eyes bug out, but this is painting with a broad brush indeed.

 

[netmilsmom]

stanley123:

Drop in on your local Roman Rite parish and witness hand-waving “praise” masses, cookies for children during the Eucharist, interpretive dancers fluttering down the aisles, lame “Peter, Paul and Mary”-style folk music, and all similar trappings of post-Vatican II worship. It’s not something we Orthodox want to go near. Nor do some Catholic churches’ New Age-flavored classes in Zen meditation and enneagram spirituality have much appeal to people who call themselves “Orthodox” for a reason…

Wow!
That’s pretty much of a smackdown of us.

Dude, come visit my parish.
NO mass with Latin and Greek.
Altar Boys
Choir girls
Folding hands (not holding) for the Our Father
Kneeling for Communion
Rosary before, Prayer to St. Michael after.
Right now we have six priests and two deacons

Still think we are all bad?

 

[Roman_Army]

stanley123:

I would contend the opposite. My personal opinion is that the breakdown since Vatican II, is due is some part at least to the elimination of the TLM. Like I said, the scandalous shows at the altar, including the clown Masses, the dancing girls, even the small changes, all go hand in hand to encourage a certain informality and casual approach to the Catholic religion. I don’t see it in any way irrational or illogical to infer from this that Catholics are supposed to take their religion a bit more lightly an a bit less seriously than before. After all, what other message are the Catholic authorities trying to get across when they introduce clowns into the Mass, clowning around at the altar?
An E. Orthodox Christian has also commented:
"The Roman liturgical tradition has disintegrated aesthetically, and as the beauty of worship disappears, so does awe. Prayer is a teacher, and minimized, modernized prayer fails to teach very much. It is our rich, historic, and theologically packed liturgical tradition that is the treasure of Orthodoxy…

Drop in on your local Roman Rite parish and witness hand-waving “praise” masses, cookies for children during the Eucharist, interpretive dancers fluttering down the aisles, lame “Peter, Paul and Mary”-style folk music, and all similar trappings of post-Vatican II worship. It’s not something we Orthodox want to go near. Nor do some Catholic churches’ New Age-flavored classes in Zen meditation and enneagram spirituality have much appeal to people who call themselves “Orthodox” for a reason…

Disneyland exists, but do we all want to move there? Unity with what? That’s what we need to ask…

The Orthodox liturgical tradition is too precious to be squandered to satisfy the ecumenist ambitions of any pope, Orthodox bishop, or committee of theologians. Years of fruitless “dialogue” won’t be redeemed by a disastrous reunion. As traditional Roman Catholics openly say, modern innovation has destroyed the sense of the sacred in contemporary Roman worship. Traditional Catholics often drive many miles to find one of the few remaining Roman churches that worship in a way that they think can even be called Catholic."
see
Part 1

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…52&postcount=37

Part 2

[](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=496653&postcount=38)

**This is bashing in which I stated that I didn’t want to see here. This is going off topic too. When has there been a clown liturgy in the Catholic Church? Last I checked, that was in the Episcopal Church. You are taking what is very minor (and condemned) and making it look as if it represents the entire Church. Also you’re using Eastern Orthodox attacks to try to prove something, are you Eastern Orthodox or Catholic? It seems you’re confusing the two.:whacky: **

 

[joanneh]

The Mass would definitely translate from the Latin much closer than it is now. Reintroduce the prayers at the Foot of the Altar. Leave the Mass in English through the Creed and then at the Offertory the priest could turn and face east and through the Canon they could use Latin. Beautiful hymns and simple Gregorian chant for the Agnus Dei, Kyrie, Sanctus, Gloria(sometimes). Kneel for Holy Communion again would be great.Mass is worship of Almighty God and eliminate Eucharistic ministers. I think Communion by intinction would be great too.

 

[shawn2005]

I think that Better more Traditional Hyms would be better at Mass, I heard Protestant Gospel music once at Mass and That was enough for me!

 

[mosher]

stanley123:

I would contend the opposite. My personal opinion is that the breakdown since Vatican II, is due is some part at least to the elimination of the TLM. Like I said, the scandalous shows at the altar, including the clown Masses, the dancing girls, even the small changes, all go hand in hand to encourage a certain informality and casual approach to the Catholic religion. I don’t see it in any way irrational or illogical to infer from this that Catholics are supposed to take their religion a bit more lightly an a bit less seriously than before. After all, what other message are the Catholic authorities trying to get across when they introduce clowns into the Mass, clowning around at the altar?
An E. Orthodox Christian has also commented:
"The Roman liturgical tradition has disintegrated aesthetically, and as the beauty of worship disappears, so does awe. Prayer is a teacher, and minimized, modernized prayer fails to teach very much. It is our rich, historic, and theologically packed liturgical tradition that is the treasure of Orthodoxy…

Drop in on your local Roman Rite parish and witness hand-waving “praise” masses, cookies for children during the Eucharist, interpretive dancers fluttering down the aisles, lame “Peter, Paul and Mary”-style folk music, and all similar trappings of post-Vatican II worship. It’s not something we Orthodox want to go near. Nor do some Catholic churches’ New Age-flavored classes in Zen meditation and enneagram spirituality have much appeal to people who call themselves “Orthodox” for a reason…

Disneyland exists, but do we all want to move there? Unity with what? That’s what we need to ask…

The Orthodox liturgical tradition is too precious to be squandered to satisfy the ecumenist ambitions of any pope, Orthodox bishop, or committee of theologians. Years of fruitless “dialogue” won’t be redeemed by a disastrous reunion. As traditional Roman Catholics openly say, modern innovation has destroyed the sense of the sacred in contemporary Roman worship. Traditional Catholics often drive many miles to find one of the few remaining Roman churches that worship in a way that they think can even be called Catholic."
see
Part 1

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…52&postcount=37

Part 2

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…53&postcount=38

What you are missing is the the syllogism that you are building for your argument is not valid. You can’t prove through correlation.

 

[Kielbasi]

Iconography is an easternization, inappropriate as a theme for a Latin rite church.

Further protestantization likewise is inappropriate.

“Cracking down” on abuses sounds fine in theory and thought, but a lot of the time this is pretty subjective, and policing others over minutia and details in how masses are said, seems a trifle totalitarian besides being a waste of time which could be used in other pursuits.

On the other hand, new and appropriate music is always needed.

 

[stanley123]

mosher:

What you are missing is the the syllogism that you are building for your argument is not valid. You can’t prove through correlation.

There are various ways of approaching proof.
One method is via the Euclidean axioms and syllogistic deductive reasoning which leads to proving each and every theorem in Euclidean geometry. This would not be easy for me to set up a set of axioms and to go from there to prove the statement I am making. Are you requesting a proof by deductive reasoning? I think that you may be in error if you were to say that one is being illogical or unreasonable if one were to attempt a “proof” by an
alternative
or inductive or inferential methodology.
there are other methods however.
A second method, called the scientific method involves a series of experiments and drawing conclusions or building a hypothetical scientific theory based on in
duction. The theory is
held until an experiment shows that the theory is untenable.
There is a softer method, called proof by inferential statistics, or hypotesis testing, according to which you set up a null hypothesis H(0) which you assume to be initially true (which in this case would be that the chageover from the TLM has no effect on the present day situation in the RCC, including the explosion in annulments, the scandals, fewer seminarians, etc.) and a second hypothesis, called the alternative hypothesis H(a), which is the competing claim (which in this case would be that the TLM has had some effect).
In carrying out such a test of H(0) versus H(a), you would reject H(0) in favor
of H(a) only if sample evidence strongly suggests that H(0) is false. There are only two possible conclusions here, namely to reject H(0) or fail to reject H(0). The basic assumption here is that the sampling distribution obeys the Central Limit theorem, which may or may not be 100% true, but only true to an approximation of some sort.
In this case, it would be necessary to show how the small changes in the liturgy, as well as the major ones mentioned already, all go hand in hand
to encourage a certain informality and casual approach to the Catholic religion. This informality and casual approach has replaced the more strict approach encouraged by the TLM, and has led little by little to a gradual decline.
In any case, I wouldn’t be giving a proof based on deductive Euclidean reasoning at this point in time.
Anyway, I thought I said already, that I was just giving my personal opinion on it, so why have this big deal about logical proof.

 

[stanley123]

** When has there been a clown liturgy in the Catholic Church? **

I read that there was a circus liturgy in which a priest was dressed in circus colors and sporting a red clown nose on August 7, 2005 at St. Michael’s Catholic Church, Wuerzburg, Germany.
I also read that there was a clown Mass celebrated by Father Brian Joyce, at Christ the King Catholic Church in California on September 1, 2002.

 

[stanley123]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Still think we are all bad?

No I do not.
I am only saying that it has been my observation and the observation of others that a certain informality and casual atmosphere has been introduced since the Church has dropped the TLM.

 

[JNB]

fix:

What? No hand holding, orans posture, dancing or lay homilists? You are too legalistic.

Sadly parishes such as the one netmil(name removed by moderator) goes to even even less common than parishes that host TLMs. It is ironic that parishes such as hers, ones that people who live by church teachings, and ones that produce vocations, are the parishes that have retained many traditional liturgical elements.

While I prefer the TLM, and wish it would be the normative missal once again(with an option to have most of it in the vernacular), I have seen parishes that celebrate the Novus Ordo in a very reverent and traditional manner.

 

[BayCityRickL]

stanley123:

. . . Unity with what? That’s what we need to ask…

Yes, that’s exactly the point. We have beliefs and traditions, and the Order of the Mass is a tradition.

What we have in the Church today is people intentionally destroying traditions and their aim is also to destroy beliefs.

When the Mass is changing and all this hand-shaking (for example) is introduced, it distracts us from the “divine mystery.” If the hand shaking was genuine, it should be done before Mass and after Mass. Instead of just shaking hands with 20 people, it might be better to seek out one person you don’t know, one person who is apparently alone, etc. and make that person know that he or she is important.

When the Mass is constantly changing, the changes are not traditions, they are novelties. It is the novelties that cheapen the Mass. Heck, they had to reintroduce a genuflection or a reverent bow back into the communion rite to bring back some sense of sacredness and at least some token reverence.

Why do you think it takes 10 years to change the English lectionary? Heck, the Vatican guys are no dummies. They don’t want stroboscopic changes in the Mass all the time. What is the sense in that, no matter what the change is.

OK, my suggestion is, let’s walk backwards to communion.

When it comes to shaking hands anyway, I’m sort of an Adrian Monk kind of guy. Hand me a wipe.

 

[JNB]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Wow!
That’s pretty much of a smackdown of us.

Dude, come visit my parish.
NO mass with Latin and Greek.
Altar Boys
Choir girls
Folding hands (not holding) for the Our Father
Kneeling for Communion
Rosary before, Prayer to St. Michael after.
Right now we have six priests and two deacons

Still think we are all bad?

Its sad that some people who are rad-trads can not see that fact that parishes such as yours should be allies in the fight to restore the liturgy. It is ironic while some may reject your parishe because it uses the Novus Ordo, I bet most of the other Catholics in your area that attend mass at other parishes in your area consider it quite pre Vatican II, rigid and traditionalist.

 

[BayCityRickL]

JNB:

Its sad that some people who are rad-trads can not see that fact that parishes such as yours should be allies in the fight to restore the liturgy. It is ironic while some may reject your parishe because it uses the Novus Ordo, I bet most of the other Catholics in your area that attend mass at other parishes in your area consider it quite pre Vatican II, rigid and traditionalist.

Somebody smart says that those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it.

My understanding of the Latin Mass is that it replaced the tower of Babel that existed in Mass celebrations. And, it was successful for about 400 years. What was not required was a major deconstruction of the Mass. At most it may have needed some tweeking. Just putting the Mass in English ( or the local vernacular) would have been enough.

JNB doesn’t like “rigid.” So do I. But, rigid is not the right word to use. If every priest celebrated Mass differently, then tell me, why would we call all of them “the Mass”? Where do you draw the line that says what is a valid Mass? OK, then Protestant services are a “Mass” also, then. Once you buy into that, then it doesn’t matter what church I attend on Sunday, then, does it?

 

[JNB]

I think you misunderstand me. I said I bet most Catholics consider Novus Ordo parishes that do the mass in a traditional matter consider them Pre Vatican II, I was praseing such parishes. Read my previous post up the thread, I think that the Tridentine mass should be trasnlated into the vernacular as the normative missal .

I also said the parishes that are most successful in terms of having parishoners that follow church teachings and produce vocations are the ones than have the most traditional elements within their mass.

BayCityRickL:

Somebody smart says that those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it.

My understanding of the Latin Mass is that it replaced the tower of Babel that existed in Mass celebrations. And, it was successful for about 400 years. What was not required was a major deconstruction of the Mass. At most it may have needed some tweeking. Just putting the Mass in English ( or the local vernacular) would have been enough.

JNB doesn’t like “rigid.” So do I. But, rigid is not the right word to use. If every priest celebrated Mass differently, then tell me, why would we call all of them “the Mass”? Where do you draw the line that says what is a valid Mass? OK, then Protestant services are a “Mass” also, then. Once you buy into that, then it doesn’t matter what church I attend on Sunday, then, does it?

 

[stanley123]

mosher:

You can’t prove through correlation.

Well, if you mean that correlation measures the extent of association, but association does not necessarily imply causation, then of course, that is fairly obvious. However, please note that people can frequently make a strong case for causality (not proving it by the axiomatic method) by showing a high correlation under different conditions and in different settings between two variables- this high correlation under different settings can marshall support for causality (such as in the case of cigaret smoking and lung cancer - even though it does not prove it axiomatically by the Euclidean method that we see in Euclidean geometry.

 

[mosher]

stanley123:

There are various ways of approaching proof.
One method is via the Euclidean axioms and syllogistic deductive reasoning which leads to proving each and every theorem in Euclidean geometry. This would not be easy for me to set up a set of axioms and to go from there to prove the statement I am making. Are you requesting a proof by deductive reasoning? I think that you may be in error if you were to say that one is being illogical or unreasonable if one were to attempt a “proof” by an
alternative
or inductive or inferential methodology.
there are other methods however.
A second method, called the scientific method involves a series of experiments and drawing conclusions or building a hypothetical scientific theory based on in
duction. The theory is
held until an experiment shows that the theory is untenable.
There is a softer method, called proof by inferential statistics, or hypotesis testing, according to which you set up a null hypothesis H(0) which you assume to be initially true (which in this case would be that the chageover from the TLM has no effect on the present day situation in the RCC, including the explosion in annulments, the scandals, fewer seminarians, etc.) and a second hypothesis, called the alternative hypothesis H(a), which is the competing claim (which in this case would be that the TLM has had some effect).
In carrying out such a test of H(0) versus H(a), you would reject H(0) in favor
of H(a) only if sample evidence strongly suggests that H(0) is false. There are only two possible conclusions here, namely to reject H(0) or fail to reject H(0). The basic assumption here is that the sampling distribution obeys the Central Limit theorem, which may or may not be 100% true, but only true to an approximation of some sort.
In this case, it would be necessary to show how the small changes in the liturgy, as well as the major ones mentioned already, all go hand in hand
to encourage a certain informality and casual approach to the Catholic religion. This informality and casual approach has replaced the more strict approach encouraged by the TLM, and has led little by little to a gradual decline.
In any case, I wouldn’t be giving a proof based on deductive Euclidean reasoning at this point in time.
Anyway, I thought I said already, that I was just giving my personal opinion on it, so why have this big deal about logical proof.

The reason why is the two methods that you describe other than the proper syllogistic method cannot prove truth but only probablility and thus only deductive reasoning can come to any viable conculsion. Aristotle has the basic form and as we keep telling you that corroleation cannot prove causation. If your argument rests on logical falicies then it is not a valid argument and thus irrational. Like I said I sympathize wtih your issue but one cannot equate liturgical laxity with social breakdown. However, you can say that liturgical breakdown is a result of societal breakdown. Such a causal argument is much more tenable.