What should the Church do next with the Liturgy?

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mosher:
If your argument rests on logical falicies then it is not a valid argument and thus irrational. .
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However, the argument does not rest on logical fallacies. The argument rests on the correlation between the replacement of the TLM by a liturgy which in some cases lessens the sense of the Sacred by introducing an informal and casual approach to worship and the deterioration in catechesis, and the increase in the number of annulments, scandals, and the numerical decrease in seminarians. This correlation under different conditions and settings marshalls support for causality. although I do not claim that it proves it axiomatically. We have to admit that there may be underlying third variables which may be related to the ones under consdieration, but nevertheless, just as in the cse of lung cancer and cigaret smoking, the high correlation lends support to our underlying belief that cigaret smoking “causes” lung cancer. Although it is not proven axiomatically, still the correlation between cigaret smoking and lung cancer strengthens and reinforces our belief that cigaret smoking is a danger to our health and is something to avoid.
 
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stanley123:
However, the argument does not rest on logical fallacies. The argument rests on the correlation between the replacement of the TLM by a liturgy which in some cases lessens the sense of the Sacred by introducing an informal and casual approach to worship and the deterioration in catechesis, and the increase in the number of annulments, scandals, and the numerical decrease in seminarians. This correlation under different conditions and settings marshalls support for causality. although I do not claim that it proves it axiomatically. We have to admit that there may be underlying third variables which may be related to the ones under consdieration, but nevertheless, just as in the cse of lung cancer and cigaret smoking, the high correlation lends support to our underlying belief that cigaret smoking “causes” lung cancer. Although it is not proven axiomatically, still the correlation between cigaret smoking and lung cancer strengthens and reinforces our belief that cigaret smoking is a danger to our health and is something to avoid.
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This is a much more acceptable statement because it recognizes the probability of your argument and does not have an absolute quality. To this I think that all here (at least most) could assent to what you said and I above quoted.
 
Back to the thread topic…

I agree with the moving of the sign of peace away from the consecration. I would like to see it part of the penetintial rite (or maybe before the bring of the gifts).

I also would like to see the issue of holding hands addressed in the positive and not argued from silence. (it would be my preference to ban it)

I would like to see better discipline among the bishops toward any priest that goes off into weird deviations. (Perhaps fining the offending priest $50 a dancer and $200 per clown)

The return of the kiss of peace to being a real kiss, Smooch!
(just kidding on the last one)
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
How about the NO the way it was suppose to be. With reverence, not an “anything goes” potluck liturgy.
Put the statues back into the churches, get rid of banners and get some good stained glass.
Sing the Latin and Greek. If my five year old can sing the Agnus Dei, the Gloria and Kyrie, the adults shouldn’t have any problem picking them up (she is a non-reader and picked them up in two months)
Let people who want to kneel for Communion, do it. Got no Altar rail? We use kneelers.
Get some Altar Boys and Choir Girls, don’t mix the two.
Get people to lead a Rosary before Holy Mass and say the Prayer to St.Michael the Archangel after. God Knows, we need all the protection we can get.
And for heavens sake, stop worrying about how long Communion will take. Let everyone receive from a Priest or Deacon unless it is a Holiday or Holy Day. Patience is a virtue sorely lacking in some parishes.

I know many of these have nothing to do with the Liturgy, but if anyone looks at my parish (who is doing all of the above) they will see us growing out of our church, supporting eight seminarians and 200 Altar Boys. We must be doing something right.

I guess my quick answer would be, bring back the reverence.
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Me too - all of the above. Perfectly said.
The only thing I’d add is to require the Confiteor.
I like you more and more, netmil(name removed by moderator). 👋
 
Holy Mother Church IMHO should just translate the old rite holy mass and and move the tabernacle back to the wall with the altar there. At the very least the tabernacle should be in the middle and the priest should be off to the side, I am sick of the Priest being the center of attention at the mass instead of our Lord. Latin should be preserved as VAT II states in some forms. Personally I think it should be used for the kyrie, gloria, creedo, sanctus, agnus dei, pater noster ect.
 
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A.Pelliccio:
Holy Mother Church IMHO should just translate the old rite holy mass and and move the tabernacle back to the wall with the altar there. At the very least the tabernacle should be in the middle and the priest should be off to the side, I am sick of the Priest being the center of attention at the mass instead of our Lord. Latin should be preserved as VAT II states in some forms. Personally I think it should be used for the kyrie, gloria, creedo, sanctus, agnus dei, pater noster ect.
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These are excellent ideas (except the priest is supposed to be Alter Christi when he celebrates the Sacraments).
 
The only reform we need is for all of us to stop telling the Church what to reform, and just be obedient.
 
Michael Welter:
The only reform we need is for all of us to stop telling the Church what to reform, and just be obedient.
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Same goes for the clergy, especially the bishops…
 
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Elzee:
Me too - all of the above. Perfectly said.
The only thing I’d add is to require the Confiteor.
I like you more and more, netmil(name removed by moderator). 👋
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Right back at you!😃
 
“The only reform we need is for all of us to stop telling the Church what to reform, and just be obedient.”

You go, Michael!​

I read somewhere - probably This Rock - that, every time there is a council like Vatican II (is the term, “ecumenical council?”), there is a major shake up for the next 20 to 30 years, after which there is a further 20 - 30 years of “settling in.”​

As for the logic of causation by correlation, did you know that there is a substance out there which has been proven to be consumed in youth by all addicts, all alcoholics, all tobacco users, and all victims of AIDS? It’s true!

What is this deadly substance? … Mother’s milk.
 
Well if I become a priest I tell you the first thing I will do is implement all of these thing listed below, and you’re welcome to come and help me netmil(name removed by moderator)! Priests need to start making changes and ruling with an iron fist if need be - its for a greater good. If the architecture isn’t up to standard we’ll be going on a few fundraisers and I might just dig up that bulldozer in my attic… 😃

Michael :yup:
netmil(name removed by moderator):
How about the NO the way it was suppose to be?
Put the statues back into the churches
Get rid of banners
Get some good stained glass.
Sing the Latin and Greek.
Kneel for Communion.
Get some Altar Boys and Choir Girls.
Get people to lead a Rosary before Holy Mass and say the Prayer to St.Michael the Archangel after.
Let everyone receive from a Priest or Deacon.
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Christus Rex:
Priests need to start making changes and ruling with an iron fist if need be…
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:bigyikes: **Yikes! No more priest scandals please. **
 
One thing I do not want, as some on this thread do, is a return of the TLM as the normative Mass of the Latin Rite. This would be a disaster of epic proportions.

Do you people really want Fr. McBrien, Cardinal Mahoney and their ilk butchering the TLM? What, you think the liturgical abuses would disappear and the abusers would magically shape up if the TLM was once again the norm? How’d ya like to see girl altar boys and mini-skirt clad EMHCs scampering around the sanctuary at the TLM? How about, “Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen.” and then placing the Body of Our Lord into the HAND of the standing communicant? No thanks.

The TLM will never again be the norm in the Latin Rite. This precious gem will be lovingly preserved by small groups of dedicated priests and attended by people who foster a love and devotion to it in themselves and their children. We do not need an English version of the TLM. We do not need a TLM with the priest facing the people. The TLM is fine just the way it is and just where it is. It has found its niche in the Church and should be left alone.

As for the Mass of Paul VI…I’d be happy if they eliminated some, if not all, of the options. Options breed abuse. Especially the Eucharistic Prayer. Do we really need 4, plus two for Masses of Reconcilliation and 3 for kiddies? Those kiddie prayers, BTW, are the most insulting and insipid pieces of liturgical trash that we’ve ever had foisted on us. I am offended on behalf of children everywhere. Kids aren’t stupid and they don’t need to be talked down to. Anyway, I understand some countries have as many as 20 Eucharistic Prayers. That’s just stupid. Stick with the Roman Canon and be done with it.

I am firmly convinced that if all the “may say” “may do” etc. were eliminated and a streamlined Missal was produced which specifically laid down exactly what was to be said and when, liturgical abuse would diminish greatly. Not disappear certainly, but diminish.

And add the “Amen” back to the end of the Our Father! :mad:
 
Dr. Bombay:
One thing I do not want, as some on this thread do, is a return of the TLM as the normative Mass of the Latin Rite. This would be a disaster of epic proportions.

Do you people really want Fr. McBrien, Cardinal Mahoney and their ilk butchering the TLM? What, you think the liturgical abuses would disappear and the abusers would magically shape up if the TLM was once again the norm? How’d ya like to see girl altar boys and mini-skirt clad EMHCs scampering around the sanctuary at the TLM? How about, “Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen.” and then placing the Body of Our Lord into the HAND of the standing communicant? No thanks.

The TLM will never again be the norm in the Latin Rite. This precious gem will be lovingly preserved by small groups of dedicated priests and attended by people who foster a love and devotion to it in themselves and their children. We do not need an English version of the TLM. We do not need a TLM with the priest facing the people. The TLM is fine just the way it is and just where it is. It has found its niche in the Church and should be left alone.

As for the Mass of Paul VI…I’d be happy if they eliminated some, if not all, of the options. Options breed abuse. Especially the Eucharistic Prayer. Do we really need 4, plus two for Masses of Reconcilliation and 3 for kiddies? Those kiddie prayers, BTW, are the most insulting and insipid pieces of liturgical trash that we’ve ever had foisted on us. I am offended on behalf of children everywhere. Kids aren’t stupid and they don’t need to be talked down to. Anyway, I understand some countries have as many as 20 Eucharistic Prayers. That’s just stupid. Stick with the Roman Canon and be done with it.

I am firmly convinced that if all the “may say” “may do” etc. were eliminated and a streamlined Missal was produced which specifically laid down exactly what was to be said and when, liturgical abuse would diminish greatly. Not disappear certainly, but diminish.

And add the “Amen” back to the end of the Our Father! :mad:
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**I agree with everything here except for what’s in red font. I don’t think its right to insult a prayer that is composed with good intentions and is itself sacred. But, I do agree that a lot of abuses are sparked by privileges that are given with good intentions. There’s no need to have a special kiddie liturgy, lay commentaries, or excess lay Eucharistic ministers, and they don’t need to have altar girls if they have boys that are willing to serve. If kids become loud just crank up the volume a little to counter it and escort the kid and parents to the back of the church. Some parishes have special sound proof rooms with speakers and Air Conditioning for noisy little kids and their parents to see and hear the mass. Maybe they could install more of those.🙂 However, if they could get a better sound system or at least speak up with a little enthusiasm, it wouldn’t be a problem. **
 
Roman_Army said:
**I agree with everything here except for what’s in red font. I don’t think its right to insult a prayer that is composed with good intentions and is itself sacred. But, I do agree that a lot of abuses are sparked by privileges that are given with good intentions. There’s no need to have a special kiddie liturgy, lay commentaries, or excess lay Eucharistic ministers, and they don’t need to have altar girls if they have boys that are willing to serve. If kids become loud just crank up the volume a little to counter it and escort the kid and parents to the back of the church. Some parishes have special sound proof rooms with speakers and Air Conditioning for noisy little kids and their parents to see and hear the mass. Maybe they could install more of those.🙂 However, if they could get a better sound system or at least speak up with a little enthusiasm, it wouldn’t be a problem. **
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I disagree that there is anything sacred in and of themselves about the kiddie Eucharistic Prayers. Although one of them is supposedly based on the Roman Canon, just dumbed down, they are basically created out of whole cloth. We all know what the road to hell is paved with… 👋

I also disagree that kids should be shunted off to sound proof rooms. The few “cry rooms” that I’ve been in are nothing but daycare centers with kids running around playing and screaming. Nobody is paying attention to Mass. Children should be taught to sit quietly, respond when appropriate and otherwise keep their yaps shut. They are as much a part of the Body of Christ as the adults. An occasional fussy baby or bratty 3 year old can be handled by a quick exit to the vestibule. Christ did say something about letting the little children come to Him. 😃 I doubt he talked down to them.
 
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flamingsword:
STanely123
This wasn’t caused by the Novus Ordo, this is a reflection of the times we live in. Take ANY philosophy class and you will hear, correllation does not prove causation.

Windmill is absolutely right. What were Catholics doing during Mass, when they sat/knelt in silence while the priest consecrated the Eucahrist with only the server responding. They carried on their own devotions and didn’t pay attention during Mass, hence why we had sanctus bells. Go to a Greek Orthodox Divine Liturgy if you don’t believe me. People were wandering everywhere and only when the bells rang did they pay any attention. Priests were hearing confessions, people were praying before icons. The congregation was constantly moving.

Let’s also not forget.
Sometimes we would be lucky enough to have a choir go on for 7-8 minutes for the kyrie alone?!? The gloria could take 15-20 minutes depending on the Mass being sung. Not to mention that by the time the Sanctus was done being sung the bells had already rung for the second elevation.
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Oh, the horror! :eek:

Seriously, you people need to get your stories straight. First, we hear complaints that the TLM was a scandal because priests rushed thru it. 7 minutes, by a drunk Irish priest was one story. Now, we hear that the TLM was a scandal because it was too plodding and dragged on and on and on… Well, which is it? Can you coordinate your memories of the bad old days a little better?

Also, I refuse to believe that Christ allowed His Church to worship for all those centuries using an inferior Mass in which the people “weren’t paying attention.” I have not been gifted with the ability to read people’s hearts or minds. If I see someone at Mass fingering their beads and staring at a stained glass window, how do I know what they’re thinking or praying? They could be in an ecstasy for all I know, having a heart to heart with the Holy Spirit Himself. :cool:
 
By the holy fathers directive you do not mix rites. There could never be a femal on the alter as a server, the eucharist will never be administered in the hands, ect. This would be a grave abuse of the liturgy. It was instructed that there will no be a mixing of the rites.
 
Dr. Bombay has now officially become mine, Topher’s and my other room mates hero.
 
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