What should the U.S. do about Sharia law and the killing of Christian converts?

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otm:
The issue as I understand it is not getting oil from Afghanistan as it is getting a pipeline through Afghanistan fro Uzbecistan, etc., the three or four countries to the general north.

None of which has to do with the Taliban; we tried to negotiate with them too. It might be well to remember that the CIA was supplying the Taliban with weapons when the Russians were marching all over the place.

The situation deteriorated to war when the Taliban told pakistan to shove it, re: Osama bin Laden.
You need to pay less attention Michael Moore, I’m afraid:
  1. We were NOT supplying the Taliban with weapons. We were supplying the Northern Alliance, the forces that eventually overcame the Taliban with weapons.
  2. As far as I know, there is no such pipeline. Nor likely to be.
 
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gelsbern:
Again as a Christian, It would please me no end that the Lord would choose me to die for the faith. I know everyone has it in mind that life is good, but to die a martyr? Why on earth would we want to keep a saint from seeing our Lord? I am not being fatalistic here I am just confused I guess. Is it really so great here on earth, that we would deny a person the chance to become an instant saint?
Because becoming a martyr is always at the hands of some injustice (an evil), and we may never commit or approve of an injustice no matter what good may come of it: “We are never to commit evil even if some good may come of it” *-- St. Paul’s Letter to the Romans 3:8. :bible1: *

Besides, if he lives through this I’m sure God will give him an extra measure of grace anyway for his perseverance.

Mike
 
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Fitz:
We are still in Afghanistan. What are you talking about?

We will be in the Middle East permanantly I think. We have been in Germany, how long? Korea, how long? I guess it really becomes less of an issue when our troops are greatly reduced. Most people don’t realize that we never left the Persian Gulf after the first Gulf War. We have been stationed there ever since. We have been involved in piracy isssues off the coast of Somalia for a long time too. No one complains about that though, especially those companies that are protected on the high seas by us and other nations also.

We are all protesting. In the end, the Afghanistan goverment can ignore all of us. That is what happens. We don’t control them. We can advise, and perhaps they do owe all of us (collectively of course), but they can be independent of us and exert their will. It would be a very dumb move and a tragic one. I would like the man to live to become a saint in due time…
Yes, you have 20,000 troops stationed in Afghanistan.

Oh! You’re peacekeeping in Germany and the Republic of Korea? Wow, I didn’t realise they needed peacekeeping.

Yes, you have military bases in those countries, it is not similar to that of Afghanistan, where there are still attacks, though mainly in the southern most province - Or Iraq, where constantly, on a daily basis, there are attacks - This, and only this, is what I was referring to, not “military bases”, or “installations”. But hey, if Germany comes under attack from Neo-Nazis and Communists, I’ll be the first one to say “I was wrong!” - but until then, I fail to see an adequate similarity.

Yes, I know America, and many other countries are protesting. I guess it was my fault for letting on that I didn’t know otherwise. You certainly do not control them, but you can not justify going to the opposite end of the spectrum, and distancing yourself largely from that nation, a nation which you changed the course of, by invading, and changing its government. If you do that, you are responsible for intervening in another country, you are responsible for how that government acts in the future, if you help a country, then a year down the line it massacres 10,000,000 people, you can hardly say "Oh, wasn’t our fault! 👍 " - Why? Because without you, there would’ve been a different government, which may or may not have been as despotic (Taking into account that at the start, the government set up was not despotic, but later turned on its people - as a hypothetical example)

It is your responsibility to see that a country, a country which you intervened in, which makes you responsible, does not oppress its people, any of its people. Whether Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Atheist anything!

What of the genocidal acts in Africa? In my opinion, the colonial powers, which once ruled these territories, and America, the worlds foremost economic and military superpower, should take responsibility for seeing that these acts stop, and do not re-occur - why should it be different in a country, in which America’s responsible for the creation of the government?

I wouldn’t be as critical, were it ten or so years down the line - Why? Because it wasn’t the initial government, it obviously wouldn’t have the fresh new links with America, it would have changed over time, over different elections. Take for example when a colonial power decides to pull out, and instead of seeing that the government is capable, stable and not oppresive, they just pull out, causing the government to collapes, which may cause a civil war, which may in turn cause genocide and the like - That country, which was responsible for the creation of that government, failed to make adequate measures to stop civil war, genocide and oppression. Now, of course, it’s only a similarity, in the fact of a newly created government, while it is common opinion that colonial powers pit different racial, or religious groups against eachother, therefore causing the problems - Though it can be said that America chose a form of government - democracy, and imposed it on that government, those that are not in power oppose those that are in power and therefore, through the legal term of causation, America could be held responsible, like in the example I stated above. Though, I’ll just say that these last few lines, starting at “Though”, were just last minute additions to this, and are only thoughts and ramblings on, I’m not saying: “Yes! America’s responsible, destroy the capitalist beast!” or anything like that, heheh. 😛 Just a simple thought, relating to causation, and the example of colonial powers above.
 
WOW. so many people calling for judicial activism here in this case. for as loud as people scream for strict constructionist judges, and then to turn around and scream for this man to be spared. do i hear a “legislating from the bench” or “rouge judges” anywhere? hmmmmm??? oh, it isnt judicial activism when it gets done what you want.

**it is in their constitution. period. ** it states no law may contradict islamic law, and islamic law calls for his death.
Ansarullah Mawlavi Zada, the chief among three judges trying the case, asserted the autonomy of the court.
“We have constitution and law here. Nobody has the right to put pressure on us,” he told the AP.
sad, yes, but it is their law. maybe if they quicly passed a Constitutional amendment or had a check and balance for this, they could find another way.
 
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BioCatholic:
WOW. so many people calling for judicial activism here in this case. for as loud as people scream for strict constructionist judges, and then to turn around and scream for this man to be spared. do i hear a “legislating from the bench” or “rouge judges” anywhere? hmmmmm??? oh, it isnt judicial activism when it gets done what you want.
Comparing judicial activism here in the US to this situation in Afghanistan is like comparing a 2006 model Ford to a Roman chariot.
 
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Zerith:
Yes, you have 20,000 troops stationed in Afghanistan.

Oh! You’re peacekeeping in Germany and the Republic of Korea? Wow, I didn’t realise they needed peacekeeping.

Yes, you have military bases in those countries, it is not similar to that of Afghanistan, where there are still attacks, though mainly in the southern most province - Or Iraq, where constantly, on a daily basis, there are attacks - This, and only this, is what I was referring to, not “military bases”, or “installations”. But hey, if Germany comes under attack from Neo-Nazis and Communists, I’ll be the first one to say “I was wrong!” - but until then, I fail to see an adequate similarity.

Yes, I know America, and many other countries are protesting. I guess it was my fault for letting on that I didn’t know otherwise. You certainly do not control them, but you can not justify going to the opposite end of the spectrum, and distancing yourself largely from that nation, a nation which you changed the course of, by invading, and changing its government. If you do that, you are responsible for intervening in another country, you are responsible for how that government acts in the future, if you help a country, then a year down the line it massacres 10,000,000 people, you can hardly say "Oh, wasn’t our fault! 👍 " - Why? Because without you, there would’ve been a different government, which may or may not have been as despotic (Taking into account that at the start, the government set up was not despotic, but later turned on its people - as a hypothetical example)

It is your responsibility to see that a country, a country which you intervened in, which makes you responsible, does not oppress its people, any of its people. Whether Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Atheist anything!

What of the genocidal acts in Africa? In my opinion, the colonial powers, which once ruled these territories, and America, the worlds foremost economic and military superpower, should take responsibility for seeing that these acts stop, and do not re-occur - why should it be different in a country, in which America’s responsible for the creation of the government?

I wouldn’t be as critical, were it ten or so years down the line - Why? Because it wasn’t the initial government, it obviously wouldn’t have the fresh new links with America, it would have changed over time, over different elections. Take for example when a colonial power decides to pull out, and instead of seeing that the government is capable, stable and not oppresive, they just pull out, causing the government to collapes, which may cause a civil war, which may in turn cause genocide and the like - That country, which was responsible for the creation of that government, failed to make adequate measures to stop civil war, genocide and oppression. Now, of course, it’s only a similarity, in the fact of a newly created government, while it is common opinion that colonial powers pit different racial, or religious groups against eachother, therefore causing the problems - Though it can be said that America chose a form of government - democracy, and imposed it on that government, those that are not in power oppose those that are in power and therefore, through the legal term of causation, America could be held responsible, like in the example I stated above. Though, I’ll just say that these last few lines, starting at “Though”, were just last minute additions to this, and are only thoughts and ramblings on, I’m not saying: “Yes! America’s responsible, destroy the capitalist beast!” or anything like that, heheh. 😛 Just a simple thought, relating to causation, and the example of colonial powers above.
… and now, Bulgaria!..
 
Al Masetti:
… and now, Bulgaria!..
And…?

Care to explain, or just feel like random expressions in the form of names of countries? Shall I give it a go? Republic of Taiwan (/Republic of China)! 😛
 
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BioCatholic:
WOW. so many people calling for judicial activism here in this case. for as loud as people scream for strict constructionist judges, and then to turn around and scream for this man to be spared. do i hear a “legislating from the bench” or “rouge judges” anywhere? hmmmmm??? oh, it isnt judicial activism when it gets done what you want.

**it is in their constitution. period. **it states no law may contradict islamic law, and islamic law calls for his death.

sad, yes, but it is their law. maybe if they quicly passed a Constitutional amendment or had a check and balance for this, they could find another way.
One would think that if there were ever a case that could cause supporters of the interventionist foreign policy of the US to have second thoughts, it’s this one.

Is this what the “liberation” of Afghanistan means? Is this what American soldiers are fighting and dying for? So that an Islamic, Sharia-based court could execute a man for converting to Christianity - something that might have occurred had we not even gone in there?
 
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gnjsdad:
Is this what the “liberation” of Afghanistan means?
No. As much as many want to assert or spin for a political arguement, it’s not.
Is this what American soldiers are fighting and dying for? So that an Islamic, Sharia-based court could execute a man for converting to Christianity - something that might have occurred had we not even gone in there?
So many logical fallacies here, it’s hard to pick just one. However, the 1st one that comes to mind is that the Taliban used to execute people for all sorts of things, not wearing a beard long enough was one. They used to hang people and leave them dangling on a street corner for days. This kind of horror would still be going on had we not gone in there and much worse.

Does this excuse the horrific idea these people have of hanging this man for professing a belief in Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior? Of course not.

Does this very possible injustice mean we shouldn’t have removed the Taliban from power? Of course not.
 
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Geldain:
So many logical fallacies here, it’s hard to pick just one.
Must be very hard, because you haven’t found one. 🙂
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Geldain:
However, the 1st one that comes to mind is that the Taliban used to execute people for all sorts of things, not wearing a beard long enough was one. They used to hang people and leave them dangling on a street corner for days. This kind of horror would still be going on had we not gone in there and much worse.
This case makes it seems like not much has changed, despite the fact of our heavy military presence, elections, and billions of dollars spent.

One thing has changed, however, since the Taliban no longer runs the place. Afghanistan is now the world’s #1 narco-state.
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Geldain:
Does this excuse the horrific idea these people have of hanging this man for professinf a belief in Jesus Christ, Our Lord and Savior?
Absolutely not. But it does show that culture trumps politics. They can hold all the elections they want: it’s still a barbaric culture, and we’re foolish to think we can change that.
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Geldain:
Does this very possible injustice mean we shouldn’t have removed the Taliban from power? Of course not.
We did the right thing in removing the Taliban. The mistake we’re making is staying there thinking we can change their culture.
 
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gnjsdad:
This case makes it seems like not much has changed, despite the fact of our heavy military presence, elections, and billions of dollars spent.
From where I sit, very much has changed, though not to the degree I would prefer and certainly not to the degree others want, though for some, it will never change fast enough to suit their political agendas.
One thing has changed, however, since the Taliban no longer runs the place. Afghanistan is now the world’s #1 narco-state.
Evidence please?
Absolutely not. But it does show that culture trumps politics.
If allowed to do so, it can, certainly.
They can hold all the elections they want: it’s still a barbaric culture, and we’re foolish to think we can change that.
From where I sit, it’s foolish to think people can’t change. I’m curious, do you think all men and women are entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
We did the right thing in removing the Taliban.
I agree.
The mistake we’re making is staying there thinking we can change their culture.
Based on your argument, as I understand it, if staying to in hopes of changing their culture is a mistake, then we should leave, according to your statement. Doing so would leave the islamofacists free to move back in and take control of the nation and we’d have the same nightmare or worse as before.

From where I sit, these people have never been exposed to the concept of freedom or democratic rule or even a remotely modern education. To expect them to adapt in a few years is, from where I sit, impossible. However, they deserve to be given the opportunity and that opportunity need not be taken away by us if they err horribly along the way.

To assume the Afghans are incapable of changing, from where I sit, is racist or at the very least, very very very uncharitible.
 
There is no doubt that much as changed in Afghanistan. Remember the Taliban pulled finger nails out of women who had polish on them. They wouldn’t let girls go to school and they harassed everyone.

The Taliban were “strict” Islamisits and adherents to a lot of Sharia law that other Muslims would argue against.

The law about apostasy, unfortunately, is a law directed by Mohammad and makes it very difficult to ignore, even by the more lenient Muslims. If the state won’t enforce it, chances are the people will.
 
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seabird3579:
I’m sure it won’t be long before this new “democratic” government starts to persecute and execute Christians. What then?
This is not a Christian/Muslim issue. Chrisitans are tolerated by Muslims in Afganistan (and most of the world for that matter). This is about a man who was Muslim who converted to Christianity. He would be in the same trouble if he had become a Jew, a Douist, Buddist or converted to any other faith.

It wasn’t that long ago that the RCC did the same thing to apostates. St. Thomas was a big advocate of killing apostates, you just don’t hear much about that on Sunday.

Anyhow, as much as it is a tragedy to see a person killed because of faith, the US is not in a position to do much about it. This is just one story that happened to make the press, people are killed for what they believe every day all over the globe. Should the US be the world court?

Nohome
 
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Nohome:
It wasn’t that long ago that the RCC did the same thing to apostates.
Only if you think that the Middle Ages was not that long ago.
 
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gilliam:
Only if you think that the Middle Ages was not that long ago.
And it wasn’t the RCC that was doing it. But that’s a discussion for another thread.
 
The Italian newspaper, Ansa, reports in, “Steps Taken for Afghan Convert,” how the international community has responded to the case. It writes:

The Vatican recently called for reciprocal religious rights in the Muslim world in the wake of widespread riots against controversial cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed.

The Vatican’s de facto representative in Afghanistan has applauded the international response to Rahman’s plight.

Father Giuseppe Moretti, the only priest in Afghanistan, said Tuesday he was “happy” with the response "because “it’s not just a question of defending a man’s life but also defending religious freedom.”

Moretti, who was sent as a one-man Vatican mission and started services in the Italian embassy chapel when it reopened in 2002, added that he was “in a delicate position” since anyone who tried to promote a religion other than Islam “is thrown out of the country.”

hat tip
 
If he is condemned to death…rescue him by military force if necessary…

We better begin to understand what we are up against…or we will lose the war before we start fighting it…
 
On talk shows this morning it was announced that he will be released.

Condi Rice was on Tim Russert and she says we need to give the new Afghanistan government time to right the wrongs of their new constitution. All new governments will have their struggles and yes we should continue to dialogue with them and bring pressure on them. She did mention that under the Taliban just listening to music was a crime, so they have come a long way and they will continue to evolve.

I just heard it on official news- he is released.
 
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