What "Sola" Did Jesus Teach......

[TriuneUnity]

NO issue with the las part. What is the Book, Chapter and verse on that quote?

Work according to Paul is almost always works of the Law. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a time when he means it to mean good works done for others.

Romans 4:5.

You don’t think the works of the Law are doing good things for others?? Can you clarify this statement?

 

[nsper7]

Then why does Jesus tell the apostles to “baptise them in the name of the Father, and of the SOn, and of the Holy Spirit?” Besides, if someone is not born they are not alive in the first place. We must be baptised AND accept the Holy Spirit.

I’ll address this question a little later when I am more awake.

Matt 19:16-21, Mark 10:17-22, Luke18:18-25. We also see in Matt 22:34-40, Jesus simplified the Ten to Two: Love God, love your neighbor. These are also echoed in Mark and Luke

Notice the question asked by the people is always what can I do to inherit eternal life? Also notice that Jesus never mentions ‘belief’ as part of Salvation. Jesus seems to put forward two ways to be Saved:

1. Works (keep the commandments, be perfect, etc.)
2. Belief in Him for eternal life

Is not loving Christ a part of accepting him? You cannot follow Jesus if you do not do as he did: take up your cross.

Following Christ and taking up one’s cross daily is connected to discipleship, not receiving eternal life.

I will accept your word argument, as I cannot read the Greek. I will point out that it does not remove Christians from the group, either. Faith alone cannot be enough, because Jesus says in Matt 7:21 that not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” will be saved, only those who DO the will of the Father.

What is the ‘will of the Father’? Notice that those address in Matthew 7 do have works.

 

[nsper7]

Excellent suggestion. That makes it appear even more likely that if Christ taught a “sola”, it was sola amor. Great point! But, you notice that no bible is needed for sola amor…

Christ’s peace.

In a way, you are absolutely correct about ‘sola amor’, but it is not our love for God, but God’s love for us.

 

[TriuneUnity]

In a way, you are absolutely correct about ‘sola amor’, but it is not our love for God, but God’s love for us.

 

[nsper7]

Edward Koehler, author of A Summary of Christian Doctrine, puts it this way (I’ll steal his words): “There are also willful sins against the conscience (1 Tim. 1:19) that cause faith to be lost. The Lutheran Confessions hold that ‘one is not to imagine a kind of faith that can exist and abide with, and alongside of, a wicked intention and to act against the conscience.’ Willful impenitence concerning one sin kills faith in the forgiveness of all sins because faith cannot live in an impenitent heart…Faith and mortal sin cannot coexist.”

That sounds quite a lot like Roman Catholic doctrine. What does it mean to ‘shipwreck your faith’?

 

[TriuneUnity]

That sounds quite a lot like Roman Catholic doctrine. What does it mean to ‘shipwreck your faith’?

If someone comes to believe in Christ solely for his salvation…and several years go by and the person begins to live in repeated impenitence…sinning without remorse, this will cause one of two things to happen, typically. Either that person will no longer feel a need to be forgiven of sins because the conscience will become so seared as to be completely impenitent. That person no longer has faith in Christ for forgiveness because they do not believe they are sinning! Or, much more likely, the sins committed can cause such despair that the person no longer believes they can be forgiven…that is not faith in the work of Christ (Judas anyone?).

 

[po18guy]

In a way, you are absolutely correct about ‘sola amor’, but it is not our love for God, but God’s love for us.

God’s love is a given. Jesus commanded us: Mark 12:29-31 (New International Version) “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

So, it is our response to the Lord’s command to love Him fully. It is up to us.

 

[ralphinal]

Romans 4:5.

You don’t think the works of the Law are doing good things for others?? Can you clarify this statement?

Nope. Animal sacrifice, circumcision, kosher, varius rituals, and all of that. It may include alms giving and such, but the main thing that Paul was saying is that the levitical code of do this for that sin is gone for ever as man could not kill enough critters to make him holy.

 

[ralphinal]

Well, there may well be punishments, but is that punishment loss of eternal life? You can lose eternal rewards and you can face temporal punishment (read the OT, never is Hell directly threatened, but plenty of other punishments are).

Yes, you can lose heaven. Jesus is clear about that. Also, Revelations shows hell is a place for eternal punishment. Now, you will still exist, but oyu will be punished for all eternity

 

[TriuneUnity]

Nope. Animal sacrifice, circumcision, kosher, varius rituals, and all of that. It may include alms giving and such, but the main thing that Paul was saying is that the levitical code of do this for that sin is gone for ever as man could not kill enough critters to make him holy.

The argument that Paul is referring only to Jewish Levitical practice is completely undermined by the context of his statements on the Law in Rom 1-3. He applies it to Jews and Gentiles equally and clearly indicates the Law written on the heart. The entire context is the moral Law of God summarized in the Commandments.

 

[nsper7]

If someone comes to believe in Christ solely for his salvation…and several years go by and the person begins to live in repeated impenitence…sinning without remorse, this will cause one of two things to happen, typically. Either that person will no longer feel a need to be forgiven of sins because the conscience will become so seared as to be completely impenitent. That person no longer has faith in Christ for forgiveness because they do not believe they are sinning! Or, much more likely, the sins committed can cause such despair that the person no longer believes they can be forgiven…that is not faith in the work of Christ (Judas anyone?).

I agree with you that that could happen, although whether the person lost their Salvation or not would be up to God. In fact, Judas’s Salvation (or lack thereof) is not discussed.

One question: would God allow it to get that far? What I mean is there are warnings about people dying if they continue to sin. One argument is that these threats about sins leading unto death is that it is part of God’s mercy: basically, God ‘recalls’ them before they can reach that state of loss of faith. Obviously, said person would probably fall into the category of Saved as though by fire and without reward (1 Corinthians 3:15). Obviously, I am in no rush to test out said theory…

 

[ralphinal]

I’ll address this question a little later when I am more awake.

Ok.

Notice the question asked by the people is always what can I do to inherit eternal life? Also notice that Jesus never mentions ‘belief’ as part of Salvation. Jesus seems to put forward two ways to be Saved:

1. Works (keep the commandments, be perfect, etc.)
2. Belief in Him for eternal life

Can you beleive and not keep the commandments? Can you beleive and still sin without repentance?

Following Christ and taking up one’s cross daily is connected to discipleship, not receiving eternal life.

One leads to the other. We are called to serve God in this life that we may do so in the next.

What is the ‘will of the Father’? Notice that those address in Matthew 7 do have works.

Correct. The will is beleiving and getting off our behinds and doing. We must care for our neighbors as ourselves. We must be the light of the world that men may see the GOOD THAT WE DO and give glory to God.

I can’t beleive I had forgotten that one.

 

[JRKH]

He never says in exact wording “You can’t keep the commandments.” He does however say that none is good but the Father in heaven. If our righteousness must equal that of the Father (be ye perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect) in order to be obedient to the commandments, in that statement he disqualifies all but God.

Thank you. Jesus does not explicitly say that we cannot be perfect.
Where Jesus says none is good but the father, He actually includes himself in this for Luke 18:19 says "So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. " So it would appear that, if we use this as a measure point, Even Jesus falls short of the Goodness of God.

I’m not seeking to show or prove that we can be as good as God, but rather that Jesus was always extolling his disciples to do more. To not be complacent as some of the Jews tended to be at that time.

He demonstrates this with the rich young ruler, who thought he had obeyed all the commandments, and Jesus demonstrated that he had not.

When the Pharisees in Luke 10:25-37 asks Jesus what he must do to inherit eternal life; “By loving the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind,” and as if that wasn’t enough, “by loving your neighbor as yourself.” To the self righteous, this sounds easy enough. But, Jesus puts the nail in the coffin of self righteousness when he says, “Do this and you shall live.“ You see, there is one little catch. Sin.

While I see what you are driving at, this is not the best example in my opinion. The passage you are refering to is the Good Samaritan, and the point Jesus was making to the Pharasee was that you cannot stop at just obeying the Law but must expand on the scope of the law. So that the Law, God’s Law is written upon your heart.

In the passage where you drew the none good but the father, we see Jesus talking to a rich young man. After having a similar conversation about the Law to the one above, Jesus tell the young man that he lacks one thing. Then He tell him to, “Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Sell = an action verb
give = an action verb
come follow = an action verb.
And note that Jesus doesn’t tell the young man to Have faith, but to sell, give and follow.

No one can love God like that. No one that is, except the Son of God, Jesus himself.

Yet Jesus our teacher, tells us in Luke 6:40 “A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is perfectly trained will be like his teacher.”

Jesus, in the quote above about none good but the Father, places himself on our level and not on the Father’s. He did not say no one is good except the Father and Me. So Jesus, in his Human nature/incarnation, is loving the Father “perfectly”.

None of us loves God with the kind of perfect love Jesus describes here. None of us puts one hundred percent of our heart, strength and soul into loving God. We can’t. The old Adam in us won’t let us. And God expects perfection. Remember, we are told, “You are to be holy as I am holy.” And realizing this, is where the “fear” part comes in to the meaning of the commandments.

True. We are weak. But the requirement, the demand that we try is still there. Using a verrrrryyyy poor example, look at Major league pitching. The Pitcher wants to and “can” put each pitch exactly where he wants it. However this doesn’t always happen. Also the Pitcher always strives for a “no hitter”, even though the odds are extremely against it. The difference between “Can be done” and will be done" is huge.

Jesus’ preaching of the Law and the commandments, if we are honest with ourselves is never good news. The good news is that Jesus kept them.

Yes Jesus kept them. He kept them as a Human being.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I agree with you that that could happen, although whether the person lost their Salvation or not would be up to God. In fact, Judas’s Salvation (or lack thereof) is not discussed.

One question: would God allow it to get that far? What I mean is there are warnings about people dying if they continue to sin. One argument is that these threats about sins leading unto death is that it is part of God’s mercy: basically, God ‘recalls’ them before they can reach that state of loss of faith. Obviously, said person would probably fall into the category of Saved as though by fire and without reward (1 Corinthians 3:15). Obviously, I am in no rush to test out said theory…

Me either. That we can resist the grace of God and turn back to the state we were in prior to justification is, I think, clear in Scripture. While we know that the work of God for us is perfected and fully sufficient if we do not believe the proclaimed message we will be lost. This is true for unbelievers and also for those Christians who no longer believe. That is where the danger of sin comes in.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Thank you. Jesus does not explicitly say that we cannot be perfect.
Where Jesus says none is good but the father, He actually includes himself in this for Luke 18:19 says "So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. " So it would appear that, if we use this as a measure point, Even Jesus falls short of the Goodness of God.

How, when He is God?

I’m not seeking to show or prove that we can be as good as God, but rather that Jesus was always extolling his disciples to do more. To not be complacent as some of the Jews tended to be at that time.

Absolutely and that is how we should look at those commandments as Christians. As a guide for knowing what the will of God is for us in our sanctification.

And note that Jesus doesn’t tell the young man to Have faith, but to sell, give and follow.

Because the young man asked the wrong question. If you ask God what YOU must do to inherit eternal life, He will give you the Law.

Yet Jesus, in the quote above, places himself on our level and not on the Father’s. He did not say no one is good except the Father and Me. So Jesus, in his Human nature/incarnation, is loving the Father “perfectly”

The difference being of course that Jesus wasn’t born a sinner. We are.

 

[ralphinal]

The argument that Paul is referring only to Jewish Levitical practice is completely undermined by the context of his statements on the Law in Rom 1-3. He applies it to Jews and Gentiles equally and clearly indicates the Law written on the heart. The entire context is the moral Law of God summarized in the Commandments.

I read that somewhat differently. To me, he is setting up two systems that were in place: Jewish and Gentile. To that end, he clearly says that Jews sin and are judged by the law, where Gentiles are judged apart from it. Jews must keep the laws but Gentiles have the natural law written in their hearts. However, as the Jews were the chosen ones, they are in a better place.

Basically, Paul sets forth in Romans an idea that the Law of Moses, while being fulfilled by Christ, was flawed in that no man could keep all of it fully. Man could keep most, but he would still sin. Christ makes us new creatures, different than before. The law is external, while Christ changes us internally.

 

[ralphinal]

I should add that in Hebrews, Paul makes it clear that faith is followed by an action. Abraham beleived and left Ur, Noah believed and built the ark. We must do if we believe./

 

[nsper7]

Yes, you can lose heaven. Jesus is clear about that. Also, Revelations shows hell is a place for eternal punishment. Now, you will still exist, but oyu will be punished for all eternity

I never denied the existence of Hell, I just pointed to in the OT that Hell is never directly threatened, although punishment certainly is. So, how can you lose Heaven?

Can you beleive and not keep the commandments? Can you beleive and still sin without repentance?

Since no one keeps the commandments perfectly (except Jesus of course), I would assume you can believe and remain in sin. I would assume it would cause all manner of problems, including psychiatric (trying to live some kind of double life and going against your own conscience) and physical (St. Paul warns about people being killed and such).

 

[TriuneUnity]

I read that somewhat differently. To me, he is setting up two systems that were in place: Jewish and Gentile. To that end, he clearly says that Jews sin and are judged by the law, where Gentiles are judged apart from it. Jews must keep the laws but Gentiles have the natural law written in their hearts. However, as the Jews were the chosen ones, they are in a better place.

No, you’re reading that right. That is exactly what Paul is saying. The problem with the argument you put forth before is that when Paul says “works of the Law” he only means Jewish Levitical Law. He means the entire Law. This is evidence by the fact that he has already indicted the entire human race in the first 3 chapters of his letter.

Basically, Paul sets forth in Romans an idea that the Law of Moses, while being fulfilled by Christ, was flawed in that no man could keep all of it fully. Man could keep most, but he would still sin. Christ makes us new creatures, different than before. The law is external, while Christ changes us internally.

The Law is not flawed; we are! The Law is internal as well as external. Referring back to the words of Christ that started this thread…Christ makes it clear that our sins begin internally and work themselves out externally. We are sinners by nature, our hearts are dead and enemies of God. God, through Baptism, does change us internally so that we may walk in His ways. We cannot walk in His ways, however, until we are justified by the blood of Christ. This Christ did for us; we cannot do for ourselves.

 

[nsper7]

I should add that in Hebrews, Paul makes it clear that faith is followed by an action. Abraham beleived and left Ur, Noah believed and built the ark. We must do if we believe./

Where is this in Hebrews?

Correct. The will is beleiving and getting off our behinds and doing. We must care for our neighbors as ourselves. We must be the light of the world that men may see the GOOD THAT WE DO and give glory to God.

I can’t beleive I had forgotten that one.

Not quite. Read John 6:29. The ‘work’ of God that is required is belief in Christ.