What "Sola" Did Jesus Teach......

[JRKH]

Yes; we are people, after all and we do stuff. As Christians we are to do different “stuff” then other people do; dead sinners (hopefully) don’t receive communion, they don’t go to confession and absolution (well some born again sinners don’t do this either, but they should!), they don’t pray to Christ for guidance and help when they assist the poor. They don’t pray the Lord’s Prayer and recite the Creed in the morning and evening.

The justification stuff, how we view our sin and our standing before God, is always the backdrop and spiritual realities of our day to day lives. They form the foundation of why we do what we do.

Triune
I think this is one of the finest and most concise things I’ve seen here. Especially the last part. It really cuts through the different arguments and perspectives on salvation/justification that we get into.
Once we get past all the different definitions and viewpoints it comes down to Believe it and Live it.

Peace
James

 

[TriuneUnity]

Triune
I think this is one of the finest and most concise things I’ve seen here. Especially the last part. It really cuts through the different arguments and perspectives on salvation/justification that we get into.
Once we get past all the different definitions and viewpoints it comes down to Believe it and Live it.

Peace
James

Thanks, JR. If only every conversation on this forum could go as this one has so far (along with the other discussions you and I have had). Ralphinal has been especially gracious as well (except for the Latin thing, but no one’s perfect).

 

[JRKH]

Thanks, JR. If only every conversation on this forum could go as this one has so far (along with the other discussions you and I have had). Ralphinal has been especially gracious as well (except for the Latin thing, but no one’s perfect).

You’ll notice I didn’t even take a crack at it.

Peace
James

 

[ralphinal]

Hey, I was poking fun. My latin is horrible for a cradle Catholic whose mother’s family is Italian.

Anyway, it seems like we can agree that if we have faith in Jesus, and put any stock into what he taught, there is more to life than reading his words and praying. Jesus DID things for the glory of God. So did his apostles. So should we. Our faith (Christianity) is about correct beleifs followed by actions. We are not able to be secular Christians, who may even deny God and go through the motions. What we beleive is more important, but it should lead to what we do and how we act.

There were two quotes on here that I liked

We should never sit and believe. The result of faith is that we cannot sit and believe. A person who has been justified now has a relationship to works, to use an analogy, of a fish with water. It is the nature of the fish to breathe water. Without gills, the fish couldn’t breathe water. Faith is our gills, and the fact that we have them means we automatically breathe water, i.e., do good works.

and

The justification stuff, how we view our sin and our standing before God, is always the backdrop and spiritual realities of our day to day lives. They form the foundation of why we do what we do.

The whole sola fide argument, from both sides, is blown out of proportion. No one really thinks that a person of faith can walk past like the levi in the Good Samaritan, but Protestants, in trying to be non-Catholic say you can. Further, just because you do not help does not always mean that you have no faith, as we Catholics make it seem. It is more complicated than that. If you beleive, you will want to do. IN helping others, our own faith is encouraged and made strong. That is why we need both. It is not about erning your way in, nor is it about what you do is useless. They feed each other.

 

[swariffin]

So I am asking the folks here, especially the Sola’ believers, to show me Which “Sola” Jesus taught. Or can it be shown that He did not teach ANY Sola.

This needs to be done by direct quotes of Jesus actual teachings from the Gospels and not with quotes from the Epistles.

Peace
James

Jesus teach “Sola Iesus”, there are so many verses in the bible.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Hey, I was poking fun. My latin is horrible for a cradle Catholic whose mother’s family is Italian.

haha, paisan. Well, as a fellow Italian, I can relate. I only know the curse words.

Anyway, it seems like we can agree that if we have faith in Jesus, and put any stock into what he taught, there is more to life than reading his words and praying. Jesus DID things for the glory of God. So did his apostles. So should we. Our faith (Christianity) is about correct beleifs followed by actions. We are not able to be secular Christians, who may even deny God and go through the motions. What we beleive is more important, but it should lead to what we do and how we act.

The whole sola fide argument, from both sides, is blown out of proportion. No one really thinks that a person of faith can walk past like the levi in the Good Samaritan, but Protestants, in trying to be non-Catholic say you can. Further, just because you do not help does not always mean that you have no faith, as we Catholics make it seem. It is more complicated than that. If you beleive, you will want to do. IN helping others, our own faith is encouraged and made strong. That is why we need both. It is not about erning your way in, nor is it about what you do is useless. They feed each other.

Great post, ralph, really. The disagreements can cause major differences in one’s outlook on life, though, so I think we always have to discuss them. I am not sure that any Protestant can sit back and think “yup, I can sin a whole bunch and not worry.” There’s obviously a problem with that kind of thinking that would belie a sheer lack of faith, really. At the same time, I do know that I fail every single day, in every single action. Even my good deeds are tainted by the sins of the flesh (not to mention the willfull sins I commit!). It is at times like that Jesus’ words slam into my brain “Should you do all that is commanded, say, we are unworthy, for we only did what was our duty.”

In my sinful ways, however, I can confidently approach my Mediator, before the altar of the Holy Sacrament, receive His precious body and blood, and say, “You have baptised me, Lord Jesus, and your death is my death, and your resurrection is my resurrection. Forgive me, a sinner,” and leave knowing that my Savior has justified me without anything of my doing, and walk back into the world and serve my neighbor, fully assured with the “peace that surpasses all understanding.”

 

[TriuneUnity]

You’ll notice I didn’t even take a crack at it.

Peace
James

To further this conversation, ralph, JR…do me a favor, and listen to the MP3 below of a Protestant radio show called “The White Horse Inn,” discussing Jesus, James, and Paul. It’s a good representation of the position that Lutherans and other Reformation-era Protestants when it comes to these issues. Let me know if you enjoyed it and whether it helped…

oneplace.com/ministries/The_White_Horse_Inn/archives.asp?bcd=2008-6-29

 

[nsper7]

I think another confusion stems from the issue of what Christians MUST do (in order to attain/maintain Salvation) and what Christians SHOULD do (i.e. to grow in their faith and to grow closer to God). Even staunch OSASers, such Grace Evangelical Society (www.faithalone.org) talk about how Christians should follow Christ, obey His commandments, bear their cross, be true disciples, etc.

Even Roman Catholicism, as about as far from OSAS as one can get, grapples with that issue of what Christians MUST do versus what Christians SHOULD do. That article in the Catholic Encyclopedia that I linked to discusses the issue quite well I think from a RC perspective:

Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia’s entry on the Evangelical Counsels in the Sermon on the Mount and other areas: HERE

 

[ralphinal]

If a man does good, is it not pleasing to God? Yes.

If a man does evil, is it not offensive to God? Yes.

Now, there are those who see the “man does” part of those two sentences and says “Then a man cannot do anything that matters.” This is not true. Jesus is clear that there are things that we must do, should do, and can do. It does not mean that these things get us into heaven. No, that is not the case. One of the charges against Luther, which is forgotten today, is that his teachings said that even good works in and of themselves were sinful. This is not the case. I am not saying that you can beleive and keep sinning. I am saying that there is a false split that many Protestants make between faith and works. A Lutherin minister told me once that a man can tell you that he can walk a tightrope between the Empire State Building and the Chysler Building, and you might beleive him. However, faith is riding on his back when he tries.

A man can convert and not sin again and yet do nothing for the least of God’s people and that is not pleasing to God in any way. His faith is dead. A man can convert and keep sinning and not do anything for anyone, and that is not pleasing to God. A man can convert, keep sinning, and help people and that is still not helpful. A man can convert, not sin (or repent when he does), and help those who need it, and that is the life he is called to.

 

[JRKH]

If a man does good, is it not pleasing to God? Yes.

If a man does evil, is it not offensive to God? Yes.

Now, there are those who see the “man does” part of those two sentences and says “Then a man cannot do anything that matters.” This is not true. Jesus is clear that there are things that we must do, should do, and can do. It does not mean that these things get us into heaven. No, that is not the case. One of the charges against Luther, which is forgotten today, is that his teachings said that even good works in and of themselves were sinful. This is not the case. I am not saying that you can beleive and keep sinning. I am saying that there is a false split that many Protestants make between faith and works. A Lutherin minister told me once that a man can tell you that he can walk a tightrope between the Empire State Building and the Chysler Building, and you might beleive him. However, faith is riding on his back when he tries.

A man can convert and not sin again and yet do nothing for the least of God’s people and that is not pleasing to God in any way. His faith is dead. A man can convert and keep sinning and not do anything for anyone, and that is not pleasing to God. A man can convert, keep sinning, and help people and that is still not helpful. A man can convert, not sin (or repent when he does), and help those who need it, and that is the life he is called to.

Agree:thumbsup:
There is a tremedous undercurrent in all of Jesus teaching that we are always trying to gather together. When we get it, it seems so clear and easy. When we try to explain it we get all mixed up.

As I was reading this morning, the “two masters” came to mind. Jesus declares in no uncertain terms that we cannot serve two masters. We must commit to one or the other. Indeed we will commit to one or the other and it is our actions which will show which we are committed to.
In the specific case in the New Testament it was God or Money, but we can just as easily refer to it as the Spirit or the Flesh; this world or the next. We must Choose and, by truly choosing we must, indeed will act accordingly.
Make a decision, make a choice then act upon that choice.

Another aspect that I see is the idea of “preparing the soil” by that I mean being prepared to recieve the seeds of grace and faith from the sower. If I make the decision to accept Christ, but don’t “feel the spirit”, does that mean I’m rejected? Not necessarily. It means that I must remove the stones, briars, etc. from the soil of my soul. I must work, study, pray, and continue to “Knock” (another action word) upon that door which, I am told will open - eventually. I can take heart from those who have gone before in faith and faced the “Dark Night of the Soul”, the torment of feeling far from God.

Jesus teaches us that, as hard as we work, there will always be more to do. He wishes us to understand that we must not be complacent, and that we must rely on him for the strength to do what He wills for us. We, for Love of Him must keep our eyes, and minds, firmly fixed upon Him.

God reveals himself in so many ways large and small. If we toil to prepare the soil we will more quickly see His hand in our lives. We will recognize His Providence and his Blessings, Grace, and be able to discern His will for us.

Perhaps this is the greatest teaching of Christ. Believe and Do, Have Faith and Do, Trust and Do. And when our Belief, Faith, and Trust are all tested to the limits we still can “DO”.

Peace
James

 

[TriuneUnity]

If a man does good, is it not pleasing to God? Yes.

One of the charges against Luther, which is forgotten today, is that his teachings said that even good works in and of themselves were sinful. This is not the case.

It is true that he said this but it must be put into proper perspective of his entire teaching on good works. Our good works are tainted by sinfulness because by nature, as sinners, we are tainted by sinfulness. However, the sinfulness in all of our actions is not imputed or counted against us, because it was imputed to Christ. Therefore, when a believer performs a good work all that God sees is the believer in Christ, therefore, the work is wholly pleasing to God.

That is one of the practical ways that our freedom from the curse of the Law manifests itself. We no longer have to worry about the garbage inside of us when we love and serve our neighbor. We don’t have to worry about it doing it because of its salvific nature. We can do it simply as a sign of love. As Luther put it once, “God doesn’t need our good works, but our neighbor does.”

 

[ralphinal]

this thread has been surprisingly pleasant. Thanks to everyone who has posted.

It seems like we are closer together than we are apart in some ways.

TU,
Did Luther not say at some point that a good deed done well is a sin?

 

[TriuneUnity]

this thread has been surprisingly pleasant. Thanks to everyone who has posted.

It seems like we are closer together than we are apart in some ways.

TU,
Did Luther not say at some point that a good deed done well is a sin?

Yes…but see above post to see the proper way that Luther looked at it. One of the reasons also that he made those statements was to emphasize through hyperbole how little we should rely on our works to have a righteousness of our own before God based on Law.

 

[ralphinal]

Yes…but see above post to see the proper way that Luther looked at it. One of the reasons also that he made those statements was to emphasize through hyperbole how little we should rely on our works to have a righteousness of our own before God based on Law.

Ok. I understand his point in that light. If you were not aware of his use of hyperbole, you would decide that his veiws were somewhat negative if not pessimistic about the state of man.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Ok. I understand his point in that light. If you were not aware of his use of hyperbole, you would decide that his veiws were somewhat negative if not pessimistic about the state of man.

The state of man outside of Christ is nothing to be optimistic about!

 

[ralphinal]

The state of man outside of Christ is nothing to be optimistic about!

But is not the Mercy of God greater? Is there hope for people who do not know Jesus? Can we look to what Jesus said and find solice in those words for those who, through no fault of their own, do not have him?

 

[TriuneUnity]

But is not the Mercy of God greater? Is there hope for people who do not know Jesus? Can we look to what Jesus said and find solice in those words for those who, through no fault of their own, do not have him?

Here’s the problem with this viewpoint, ralph. The unbeliever is not under condemnation for not believing the Gospel. The Apostle Paul, in the 1st chapter of Romans, lays out why mankind is condemned under the Law of God…

Rom. 1:18-25, 28-32: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen… And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

This is a summation of mankind without the light of the Gospel. There are no innocent natives in Africa, the United States, or Europe… Rom. 8:7-8: For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The Gospel is more than a command that must be obeyed…It is a rescue operation. We, the Church, are in the ship and we are called to be on a rescue mission. Those we seek to rescue are already dead in the water, not drowning. Condemned by the wrath of God. The Savior we preach, through the preaching of the Gospel, and the administration of Holy Baptism, are raising those bodies in the water from the dead…John 8:23-24: He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins.”

 

[ralphinal]

Here’s the problem with this viewpoint, ralph. The unbeliever is not under condemnation for not believing the Gospel. The Apostle Paul, in the 1st chapter of Romans, lays out why mankind is condemned under the Law of God…

Rom. 1:18-25, 28-32: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen… And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

This is a summation of mankind without the light of the Gospel. There are no innocent natives in Africa, the United States, or Europe… Rom. 8:7-8: For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The Gospel is more than a command that must be obeyed…It is a rescue operation. We, the Church, are in the ship and we are called to be on a rescue mission. Those we seek to rescue are already dead in the water, not drowning. Condemned by the wrath of God. The Savior we preach, through the preaching of the Gospel, and the administration of Holy Baptism, are raising those bodies in the water from the dead…John 8:23-24: He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins.”

Ok. I am not disagreeing with the logic here, just one statement. Do you think that everyone in Africa, North and South America, and Europe has had the Good News taught to them in a way that they should accept it?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Ok. I am not disagreeing with the logic here, just one statement. Do you think that everyone in Africa, North and South America, and Europe has had the Good News taught to them in a way that they should accept it?

Maybe you could clarify a little what you mean here? Do you mean preached to them? No, which is our entire impetus for bringing it to them.

Maybe you meant something different.

 

[JRKH]

Maybe you could clarify a little what you mean here? Do you mean preached to them? No, which is our entire impetus for bringing it to them.

Maybe you meant something different.

Are we discussing Jesus “Sola” or something else here?
Seems like there was another thread on the Luther theology

Peace
James