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ibkc
Guest
Maiden, Mother, Crone.
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Publisher
Guest
Yes indeed, we definitely have different view of the Eternal and what puts one’s soul in peril.
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b_justb
Guest
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IanCorrigan
Guest
**One simply has to peruse the internet to get a glimpse at what some Wiccans do as far as spells and rituals go. Here’s a snapshot of one:
witchway.net/ritual/ritual.html**
I had a look at that - what do you find objectionable? Looks to me like all good intentions, and working for good results.
Folks, invoking pagan gods is invoking demons. I’ve spoken to Pan and Isis myself. Both were what I call “evil”. Their purposes are destructive, not beneficial.
A pretty funny claim, since thousands of Pagans worship those deities, and gain good from it. Pan is a wild fellow, it’s true, but Isis, especially, is all about love, comfort and blessing.
And the pagans I know who performed spells eventually turned to Satanism. The Satanists I have known tell me that paganism is the entryway or beginning on the path to Satanism.
I doubt that. In the 30 years I’ve been in Paganism I’ve never known a practicing Pagan to become a Satanist. On the other hand, I’ve seen young people reject their Christian upbringing and turn to Satanism, until they realize how empty it is and move on to worship of the actual Old Gods, leaving behind the anger and rebellion of Satanism.
The notion that Satanists recruit through Paganism is just nonsense.
Hate to burst you good people’s proverbial bubbles, but paganism is morally evil and unacceptable.
I’m sorry, but Paganism is entirely acceptable as a religion in the world today, and you can expect to see it growing in numbers and social status, as it has done consistently since its revival 100 years or so ago.
Christian doctrine does not have any special moral authority outside of Christian social circles. All humans are capable of deciding for ourselves what is morally acceptable.
**If you all want to be one big happy family, go right ahead, but your very soul is in peril. **
So we keep hearing from preachers who seem to think they have a reason to bother others about our beliefs. In practice, my soul is happy and peaceful with the Blessing of the Gods and Goddesses. I couldn’t do better in a Christian church, I think.
Ian
witchway.net/ritual/ritual.html**
I had a look at that - what do you find objectionable? Looks to me like all good intentions, and working for good results.
Folks, invoking pagan gods is invoking demons. I’ve spoken to Pan and Isis myself. Both were what I call “evil”. Their purposes are destructive, not beneficial.
A pretty funny claim, since thousands of Pagans worship those deities, and gain good from it. Pan is a wild fellow, it’s true, but Isis, especially, is all about love, comfort and blessing.
And the pagans I know who performed spells eventually turned to Satanism. The Satanists I have known tell me that paganism is the entryway or beginning on the path to Satanism.
I doubt that. In the 30 years I’ve been in Paganism I’ve never known a practicing Pagan to become a Satanist. On the other hand, I’ve seen young people reject their Christian upbringing and turn to Satanism, until they realize how empty it is and move on to worship of the actual Old Gods, leaving behind the anger and rebellion of Satanism.
The notion that Satanists recruit through Paganism is just nonsense.
Hate to burst you good people’s proverbial bubbles, but paganism is morally evil and unacceptable.
I’m sorry, but Paganism is entirely acceptable as a religion in the world today, and you can expect to see it growing in numbers and social status, as it has done consistently since its revival 100 years or so ago.
Christian doctrine does not have any special moral authority outside of Christian social circles. All humans are capable of deciding for ourselves what is morally acceptable.
**If you all want to be one big happy family, go right ahead, but your very soul is in peril. **
So we keep hearing from preachers who seem to think they have a reason to bother others about our beliefs. In practice, my soul is happy and peaceful with the Blessing of the Gods and Goddesses. I couldn’t do better in a Christian church, I think.
Ian
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
Invoking pagan gods.
Gain good from it, I see. So, if I asked, let’s say, the Devil to give me something “good” then it would be okay? That’s like saying stealing from my neighbor is good for me. That’s not morality, that’s selective selfishness.
Just giving my experience with a large Satanic cult that did so.
It is if you’ve not experienced it I suppose.
Acceptable to who? the world? You cannot love the world and God at the same time. All kinds of religions are “acceptable” by the world and governments. That doesn’t make them morally okay.
That’s moral relativity. A rapist may think it’s okay to rape children too. That doesn’t mean it really IS morally acceptable. Manson probably thinks his behavior was morally acceptable as well. Terrible logic.
I don’t bother others actively with my beliefs. However, when asked a question I will certainly respond as I have done in this thread. Would you rather I lie to you about my beliefs? Is that morally acceptable as well?
Peace…
MW
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
There is darkness and there is light which make up the eternal. There’s eternal darkness and eternal life. If everything is “of the eternal” and from the same source, then there can be no logical differentiation between what is right and what is wrong. Sadly, that’s the state of our world right now.
Peace…
MW
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ibkc
Guest
I have to agree with Ian that there is little overlap between neo-paganism and satanism. In fact, there’s a lot of mutual dislike. Satanists tend to think that neo-pagans are a bunch of naive, fluffy goofballs, and neo-pagans tend to think that satanists are self-absorbed jerks. The two groups really hate that they are associated with each other in the mainstream imagination, because really, they have little in common at all. I agree again with Ian that satanists are very often rebellious, embittered ex-Christians because the satanists I have known over the years (not all that many, but still) were exactly that and nothing more.
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IanCorrigan
Guest
Gain good from it, I see. So, if I asked, let’s say, the Devil to give me something “good” then it would be okay? That’s like saying stealing from my neighbor is good for me. That’s not morality, that’s selective selfishness.
Since Pagans don’t have a ‘devil’ - that’s hard to answer. In general, Pagans hold with common standards of human decency - don’t take that which isn’t yours, don’t hurt others, etc.
Christianity didn’t invent the Golden Rule - It’s been part of every known Pagan system.
Just giving my experience with a large Satanic cult that did so.
Which one?
It is if you’ve not experienced it I suppose.
Well, I have 30 years of experience in Paganism and 'the occult - it seems like nonsense to me.
Acceptable to who? the world? You cannot love the world and God at the same time. All kinds of religions are “acceptable” by the world and governments. That doesn’t make them morally okay.
In a Pagan model ‘the world’ is the material presence of spirit - the separation of the divine and the world is considered a Very Bad Thing.
All kinds of religions are acceptable because all kinds of religions are equally valuable. The idea that Christianity confers some special blessing not available in other religions just can’t be supported.
That’s moral relativity. A rapist may think it’s okay to rape children too. That doesn’t mean it really IS morally acceptable. Manson probably thinks his behavior was morally acceptable as well. Terrible logic.
Morality is invented by society. What is moral in one place is immoral in another, and vice versa. You don’t have to like that, but it is simply a description of how things really are, all scripture aside.
Ian
Since Pagans don’t have a ‘devil’ - that’s hard to answer. In general, Pagans hold with common standards of human decency - don’t take that which isn’t yours, don’t hurt others, etc.
Christianity didn’t invent the Golden Rule - It’s been part of every known Pagan system.
Just giving my experience with a large Satanic cult that did so.
Which one?
It is if you’ve not experienced it I suppose.
Well, I have 30 years of experience in Paganism and 'the occult - it seems like nonsense to me.
Acceptable to who? the world? You cannot love the world and God at the same time. All kinds of religions are “acceptable” by the world and governments. That doesn’t make them morally okay.
In a Pagan model ‘the world’ is the material presence of spirit - the separation of the divine and the world is considered a Very Bad Thing.
All kinds of religions are acceptable because all kinds of religions are equally valuable. The idea that Christianity confers some special blessing not available in other religions just can’t be supported.
That’s moral relativity. A rapist may think it’s okay to rape children too. That doesn’t mean it really IS morally acceptable. Manson probably thinks his behavior was morally acceptable as well. Terrible logic.
Morality is invented by society. What is moral in one place is immoral in another, and vice versa. You don’t have to like that, but it is simply a description of how things really are, all scripture aside.
Ian
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
MysticWarrior:
Why is that important? They are 4,000 members strong in Canada, especially British Columbia. I know the High Priest personally. Much of my information that I have shared is from him and others in their hierarchy. It’s a long story that’s really irrelevant and their identity is of course masked by society.
You really don’t want to know my feelings on paganism further. I’ve shared my thoughts and it’s obvious you will support your faith while I denounce it. I can see no productive result and I get no pleasure from winning or losing arguments.
Your faith is morally unacceptable and in disobedience to God my Father. It’s in Scriptures and is basic Christian teaching among all Christian denominations that I know of. There is no middle ground.
Jesus said whoever does not gather with me scatters. You are either with Christ or without Him.
MW
IanCorrigan said:
Why is that important? They are 4,000 members strong in Canada, especially British Columbia. I know the High Priest personally. Much of my information that I have shared is from him and others in their hierarchy. It’s a long story that’s really irrelevant and their identity is of course masked by society.
It doesn’t matter what the Pagan model is. It’s morally wrong to invoke other gods according to Christianity. We have different beliefs and I’m not going to get into a paganism vs. Christianity debate. It’s morally unacceptable to God my Father. If you want to start a new thread, by all means do. This is not the place.
Ian, what you are saying is that whatever the “culture” or society believes is okay is really okay? There are no moral absolutes at all? If you think it’s okay and your neighbor thinks it’s okay, then it must be okay I suppose. No wonder this world is mired in filth and moral depravity. Anything goes!
You really don’t want to know my feelings on paganism further. I’ve shared my thoughts and it’s obvious you will support your faith while I denounce it. I can see no productive result and I get no pleasure from winning or losing arguments.
Your faith is morally unacceptable and in disobedience to God my Father. It’s in Scriptures and is basic Christian teaching among all Christian denominations that I know of. There is no middle ground.
Jesus said whoever does not gather with me scatters. You are either with Christ or without Him.
MW
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
There is some dislike, but it’s hard to p(name removed by moderator)oint all neo-paganists and all Satanists as being “X” and “Y”. Unlike Catholicism where there is a specific doctrine and dogma that is universal.
For example, there are athiestic Satanists and theistic Satanists and varieties of each. Then there’s Luciferianism which muddies the waters.
I’m not saying a pagan is a Satanist and vice-versa, but the underlying premises are the same. They both invoke gods and demons contrary to God’s will. They use and rely on these gods and demons to get their way. They both manipulate energies to achieve certain goals.
They are both immoral and intrinsically evil religions.
There are many ex-Christians who are Satanists. How many is hard to tell. Refer back to my first paragraph. But, there are those who also left paganism to gain more power through invoking demons. It’s not a far cry from invoking pagan gods to invoking demons. In my mind they are one and the same, whether or not pagans think so.
The Satanic cult I’ve worked with also has relationships with pagan gods whom they would invoke. Like it or not that’s my subjective experience.
Peace…
MW
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IanCorrigan
Guest
Why is that important?
It’s important to your credibility, which I consider shaky. Satanism is, after all an invention of the Roman church, which misrepresented and blasphemed the holy ways of the Pagans and invented wacky stories of devil-worshipping witches. They then used those stories as an excuse to persecute even to death those who disagreed with them
In more modern times Christian anti-occult preaching has been filled with lies, from Mike Warnke to the ‘Michelle Remembers’ hoax and the ‘satanic ritual abuse’ nonsense it helped to spawn. So there’s just no reason to believe unsupported assertions about these things.
They are 4,000 members strong in Canada, especially British Columbia. I know the High Priest personally.
So, what do they call themselves, and what evidence other than your own assertions can you present for their existence? If the answer is ‘none’, I’d be inclined to take that as evidence of another sort.
Ian, what you are saying is that whatever the “culture” or society believes is okay is really okay? There are no moral absolutes at all? If you think it’s okay and your neighbor thinks it’s okay, then it must be okay I suppose. No wonder this world is mired in filth and moral depravity. Anything goes!
There is no ‘really’ beyond that. The Bible is an artifact of a specific group of cultures, and has influenced other cultures. Morality is ‘really’ invented and defined by culture. That doesn’t mean that ‘anything goes’ - most cultures agree on the basics of human decency. Christian non-relative morality didn’t stop the Roman Church from torture, political conspiracy and theft. There’s no reason at all to judge Christian or Biblical morality as producing behavior superior to that of, say, late Roman Paganism.
Your faith is morally unacceptable and in disobedience to God my Father. … Jesus said whoever does not gather with me scatters. You are either with Christ or without Him.
Fortunately that amounts to nothing in common life, or in Pagan spiritual life.
Ian
It’s important to your credibility, which I consider shaky. Satanism is, after all an invention of the Roman church, which misrepresented and blasphemed the holy ways of the Pagans and invented wacky stories of devil-worshipping witches. They then used those stories as an excuse to persecute even to death those who disagreed with them
In more modern times Christian anti-occult preaching has been filled with lies, from Mike Warnke to the ‘Michelle Remembers’ hoax and the ‘satanic ritual abuse’ nonsense it helped to spawn. So there’s just no reason to believe unsupported assertions about these things.
They are 4,000 members strong in Canada, especially British Columbia. I know the High Priest personally.
So, what do they call themselves, and what evidence other than your own assertions can you present for their existence? If the answer is ‘none’, I’d be inclined to take that as evidence of another sort.
Ian, what you are saying is that whatever the “culture” or society believes is okay is really okay? There are no moral absolutes at all? If you think it’s okay and your neighbor thinks it’s okay, then it must be okay I suppose. No wonder this world is mired in filth and moral depravity. Anything goes!
There is no ‘really’ beyond that. The Bible is an artifact of a specific group of cultures, and has influenced other cultures. Morality is ‘really’ invented and defined by culture. That doesn’t mean that ‘anything goes’ - most cultures agree on the basics of human decency. Christian non-relative morality didn’t stop the Roman Church from torture, political conspiracy and theft. There’s no reason at all to judge Christian or Biblical morality as producing behavior superior to that of, say, late Roman Paganism.
Your faith is morally unacceptable and in disobedience to God my Father. … Jesus said whoever does not gather with me scatters. You are either with Christ or without Him.
Fortunately that amounts to nothing in common life, or in Pagan spiritual life.
Ian
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ibkc
Guest
True, but generalities can still be made.
I so often hear such unbelievably silly claims from Christians who have never actually practiced any pagan paths that I tend to be incredulous of claims that are far outside my own experience. I am not saying there is no overlap between neo-paganism and the various kinds of satanism at all, but I think it is a huge stretch to say that one leads to another.
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blacktiger057
Guest
Very well said, Ian…
Whenever we feel superior or inferior to others, that is the ego. This includes feeling that your religion is somehow superior to other peoples’ religions. The “us against them” mentality is the basic ‘logic’ behind all wars. We must be united and accept each other (not agree, but accept). That is how peace is made between religions, and as long as Christianity claims to be the “one, true way”, it is only creating more separation in the world, thus disrupting the peace. However, many Christians I have met do not have this mentality fortunately. I love how much the Church has evolved in its ideas!
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
"Mystic Warrior:
IanCorrigan:
Mystic Warrior:
The group. Haha, evidence you ask for? What would you like? Detailed police reports? Wouldn’t it be illogical for a secret Satanic cult that thrives on anonymity to leave behind evidence that they exist? I will not share further information about this group for various reasons. If you want to take it that I am lying, then so be it. God is my witness and judge, not you. I care about what He thinks and your opinions pale in comparison.
IanCorrigan:
IanCorrigan:
After 30 years of being deceived by the fallen one, I don’t expect I would make much progress in changing your mind. Besides, this has taken the thread away from its intention as I alluded to earlier.
You can believe what you want and continue your path. I will continue to fight the darkness of paganism regardless. Light always wins in the end. Why don’t you ask the powerless Pan to shed some light for you on his exact nature? I’ve spoken to him, why shouldn’t you? He should remember me. Or how about Isis? I reminded Isis of how Jehovah worked through Moses to bring destruction upon the wicked Egyptian people. What was their response? The silence was deafening.
This is our last communication. “Do not cast your pearls before swine” my Lord says. I think I’ll take His advice. Feel free to continue your glowing tribute to false pagan gods and denial of evil in paganism, but remember that God is always listening.
MW
I could introduce you to them if you like, but you may get more than you bargained for. I don’t really care if you think my credibility is shaky because I didn’t set out to prove anything but provide my background on what I believe and have experienced. This isn’t a debate about my sources. It’s about spells that pagans cast. Incredible claims you have there about the Roman church inventing Satanism. It was invented by the Devil himself who found ignorant souls willing to worship him. If you care to look at my website you will find my experiences blogged there. If anything you will get a good laugh.
SRA is real for some people. I’ve experienced it first hand with many people. There’s no reason to believe your unsupported assertions that paganism is benign either.
Mystic Warrior:
IanCorrigan said:
The group. Haha, evidence you ask for? What would you like? Detailed police reports? Wouldn’t it be illogical for a secret Satanic cult that thrives on anonymity to leave behind evidence that they exist? I will not share further information about this group for various reasons. If you want to take it that I am lying, then so be it. God is my witness and judge, not you. I care about what He thinks and your opinions pale in comparison.
Mystic Warrior said:
What else would I expect from a pagan who blasphemes God?
Mystic Warrior said:
But it will in your future life.
After 30 years of being deceived by the fallen one, I don’t expect I would make much progress in changing your mind. Besides, this has taken the thread away from its intention as I alluded to earlier.
You can believe what you want and continue your path. I will continue to fight the darkness of paganism regardless. Light always wins in the end. Why don’t you ask the powerless Pan to shed some light for you on his exact nature? I’ve spoken to him, why shouldn’t you? He should remember me. Or how about Isis? I reminded Isis of how Jehovah worked through Moses to bring destruction upon the wicked Egyptian people. What was their response? The silence was deafening.
This is our last communication. “Do not cast your pearls before swine” my Lord says. I think I’ll take His advice. Feel free to continue your glowing tribute to false pagan gods and denial of evil in paganism, but remember that God is always listening.
MW
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Mystic_Warrior
Guest
Simply laughable.
I don’t personally feel superior to anyone, but I can tell you that there is no greater power in this universe than the Lord Jesus Christ. No pagan god or demon has ever, ever been able to withstand Him.
There are superior religions on this earth whether we agree or like it. Shall we all hold hands and pray together? No. Light has no fellowship with darkness. If differences cause separation, then so be it. There is a great war between light and darkness, so I don’t imagine there will be any peace between them. Darkness must go away and allow light to enter. Till then, life will continue as it always has till God fulfills his promises.
Continue the love fest.
MW
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Swan
Guest
Once again stepping in to agree with you and support your posts, which you are so good and patient to take the time to compose. It’s folks like you who give me hope during a truly dark period of my life. Peace.
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Ravyn_Guiliani
Guest
It has been my experience that the ego factor alone makes most Satanists more common bedfellows with some (arrogant) Christians than with Neo-pagans/Wiccans/New Agers (aka White Lighters).
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LDNCatholic
Guest
Go easy on blacktiger, hes a kid just finding his way about.
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theistgal
Guest
I’ve just read it and found it quite disturbing. I certainly didn’t laugh. But I would like to remind you that you should be very cautious about assuming you are actually communicating directly with (among others) St. Michael the Archangel, Isis, Pan, and “earthbound spirits” of any kind.
As for the rest, I hope you have a good spiritual advisor to help you sort out reality from imagination.
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blacktiger057
Guest
You may not feel superior to anyone specifically at this moment, but in our lives it is in our very nature to create positions of power, real or imagined. For example, some parents feel superior to their children, which is probably part of the reason why some families suffer much conflict.
I do agree partly with what you last said about Jesus. If you find the Divine Power through Jesus, then that is the most powerful force in all the universe. Pagan gods and demons are entirely different and not to be equated with each other, though. Pagan gods are just another aspect of the Divine Power.
What you said here proves my point. No doubt you hold your religion to be the superior one. You’d rather be separated from others instead of united. Didn’t Jesus hang araound horrible sinners to not only save them but to demonstrate that God lived within all people? You should bring your light to the darkness instead of saying “No, I will never pray with these people!”
But if we live in reality, not in our thoughts, there is no battle between light and darkness. The thinking that created this illusionary conflict cannot be the sort of thinking that will bring people out of it. You say that there can never be peace between this light and darkness. There is obviosuly love and hate in the world, but what I mean by this is that we are all one. God lives within us all. In this realization, compassion arises. Try this exercise: Try treating everyone you meet like you would Jesus, just for a week. Observe how your life changes. Separation means that you do not recognize the good that is in others. Separation=suffering. Oneness=true happiness. Try that simple exercise and you will know what I mean.
- Status