What specifically caused the mass exodus from religious orders after Vatican ll?

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Pope John XXIII said he wanted to open the window and let the fresh air in, and sometimes this causes a lot of dust to fly and things in a room to be disturbed - but eventually it all settles down again. Change is often painful, but not all change is bad. In hindsight, it appears that things all moved too fast but it did wake us all up and brought attention to religious life and the liturgy and there is probably a greater awareness of these things today than there was before the Council. The young people today seem very knowledgeable about issues within the Church, and they are making well-informed choices in their discernment. This is a good thing.

…and yet those orders that changed severely are all but dead…it has nothing to do with “too fast”. This post, particularly the quoted section, is in my estimation truly meaningless drivel, since it fails to address the reality of the loss of the vast majority of nuns in the first place. This lack is with us to this day and has basically killed the entire parochial school institution. “Too fast”? What would you say after a nuclear blast, that the atoms fused “too fast” but overall the effects were good?
 
Cluny said:
Most of the reasons given here are echoed in the book WHERE HAVE ALL THE GOOD SISTERS GONE?

Oddly enough, they are repeated in the controversial book LESBIAN NUNS–BREAKING SILENCE.

In both books, many voices expressed the sadness, emptiness, and even disgust when the usual practices of the tradtional liturgy, music, prayer, habit, and spirituality were taken away. Many felt they had in fact been cheated.

More than once, and not just here, have I heard of “elderly, frumpy, liberal female social workers who don’t date.”

As one ex-nun said, “Why go through a novitiate and take vows, only to live like a secular?”

** I’ve told him I will return if he becomes a monk or if he dies! The children won’t be surprised!**

Bobbie, it’s very common in Orthodoxy for a widow or widower to embrace monastic life after the death of a spouse and whene the children are grown!
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Modernization of the orders made no psychological sense, and the changes had a similar effect on aging Catholics at the time.
Their whole relgious culture was transformed by radicals who refused to follow common sense.
 
Many friends and collleagues of mine have, over the years, suggested that I should " …write a book … after I had regailed them with incidents from my convent days.
For a while I thought that I might - but then I read:
“Through the Narrow Gate” by Karen Armstrong.
She has mostly told my story - but without the humourous, up-lifting and touching stories I would have added!
It is strange to think that she left the convent as I was thinking seriously of entering.
I still yearn for the Religious Life - and I would never run it down. I met some wonderful people whose humanity, professionalism and spirituality were without fault. I also met some who, unfortunately were cruel, selfish, sadistic and in-humane - but that’s life! I pray often for those who have been scandalised or abused by “Religious” sisters, brothers or clergy. I hope that I have never given scandal or brought the faith into dis-repute - Here I feel I must apologise for buying that personal car registration number - “X1 NUN” - It was a re-action to someone trying to make me feel guilty for leaving the convent! As if I hadn’t beaten myself-up enough for years. Should I confess this? I usually hide the car when the Bishop visits my parish!
Unfortunately, I do feel that the community I was with, did let so many of us down. We were not supported effectively when we went to them for help in our days of self-doubt. I did attend a re-union some years ago ( I was married and my children were about 6 and 7 years old). I was over-whelmed at the huge number of ex-sisters who attended! I thought I was one of “a few”. The Convent chapel, which was HUGE, and as big as a City Parish Church, was full! The experience was quite traumatic. I wept for the whole week-end! But what most of us had been waiting for, for years, was finally said on behalf of the community - by the priest who led the reconciliation week-end - “Sorry” . They finally acknowledged their responsibilty for the deluge from the community. In some way that helped me to shed some of the guilt that I had been carrying for years. I pray that there will be vocations to the religious life and that communities will support oneanother as they should.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Why in the world is this marked as a trial or deposition exhibit?
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Most likely because it was used as an exhibit for something; it may or may not have been used in a trial. Whether it was or was not does not reflect necessarily on the conte3nts of the document.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Why in the world is this marked as a trial or deposition exhibit?
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If you read the history of Conrad Baars, he was the ONLY
clinical psyciatrist to have is work reviewed by the CDF.

He also had a few private audiences with Pope Paul VI.

Anyway, this document was part of a Synod of Bishops in Rome on Crisis in the Priesthood during the pontificate of Paul VI (Cardinal Wojtyła was there too!). The Pope ordered ***every ***Bishop to read Conrad Baar’s document.

This document is REALLY hard to find, this is about the only format you can find it in. It is a gem really. Conrad Baars is one of the hidden treasures that we have in the Catholic Church.

It is listed as an “exhibit” because the document was used in cases against bishops who covered up sexual abuse.
In other words those who were suing certain bishops or dioceses said “Why did you not do something, if this psychiatrist wrote this document that the Pope*** required*** you to read?”

In a sense Conrad Baars was way ahead of his time. He realized crisis in the priesthood LONG before things went public.

Suzanne Baars, the daughter of Conrad is a counselor in Texas and she has been on Catholic Answers Live (download her mp3s they are great!!!). She carries on the work of her father.

Conrad Baars= clinical psychology based on the teachings of Thomas Aquinas.
 
otjm said:
Most likely because it was used as an exhibit for something; it may or may not have been used in a trial. Whether it was or was not does not reflect necessarily on the conte3nts of the document.
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I am not aware of anything that is marked that way and Bates stamped in that manner, other than a deposition or trial exhibit. But whatever. I did not say it reflects on the contents. It’s just odd to see it that way.

It’s an interesting article. Underlying the exhortation to thoroughly vet candidates for the priesthood or the religious life and the salutary effects of doing so, is the strong suggestion that many of the Pre-VII nuns and priests were, well, not very well-balanced people. I’m not sure I would disagree with that. I wonder, though, whether such people were not well-served by their vocations even so, as long as they had a clear path to follow and strong leadership. Other than with the priest homosexuals, I am not persuaded they failed to serve purposes useful to the Church and to themselves. I didn’t know a great number of religous who went radical, but it seemed to me the nuttier they were before their “liberation” the worse they were after it. But in the former situation, they were under control, whereas in the latter, they were not. Some of the outcomes of which I know were really tragic. Many, it seems to me, would have been better off praying and obeying for a very disciplined lifetime. And those whom they formerly served, in schools, hospitals and so on, would have been better off for it too.

As I read the article, I was reminded of the mothers superior who ruled in each convent and ruled the orders. Even as a child, I was impressed by how balanced and wise they seemed to be; how they always seemed to be the best of the bunch, and so unlike some of the crazier ones who never seemed to become superiors. Likely those superiors were the ones who would have passed the author’s test. But again, in an order that was run by such a balanced person who ruled absolutely, could it have been such a terrible outcome for all concerned, as long as they did? It didn’t seem so then, and it doesn’t really seem so now.
 
3 Quick things:
  1. Lots of well thought out and valuable opinions here.
  2. Lets not discuss Karen Armstrong, unless its to point out that people pursue religious life without understanding Catholicism (this woman has published the opinion that the Bible has “hate running through it.”) She uses her experience as a ‘religious’ to be an supposedly unimpeachable critic of all things Christian. Well, I move to impeach.
  3. On a separate note, there are married Priests throughout the world - this is a fact. There are also married priests (former Anglicans) in America. They are accepted, and apparently fulfill their calling with no problems…anyone wonder if the dscipline of celibacy in the Latin Rite (the western churches) is completely necessary? Just asking, not suggesting.
 
thegame said:
Karen Armstrong… I move to impeach.
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The dissenting voices always get the media attention.
On a separate note, there are married Priests throughout the world - this is a fact. There are also married priests (former Anglicans) in America. They are accepted, and apparently fulfill their calling with no problems…anyone wonder if the dscipline of celibacy in the Latin Rite (the western churches) is completely necessary? Just asking, not suggesting.
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The basis of the discipline relying heavily on Saint Paul’s opinion on the matter in 1 Corinthians 7:32-35. In that chapter he spoke of a “crisis” regarding concerns over marriage - even in those early days.

Christ’s peace.
 
thegame said:
3 Quick things:
  1. Lots of well thought out and valuable opinions here.
  2. Lets not discuss Karen Armstrong, unless its to point out that people pursue religious life without understanding Catholicism (this woman has published the opinion that the Bible has “hate running through it.”) She uses her experience as a ‘religious’ to be an supposedly unimpeachable critic of all things Christian. Well, I move to impeach.
  3. On a separate note, there are married Priests throughout the world - this is a fact. There are also married priests (former Anglicans) in America. They are accepted, and apparently fulfill their calling with no problems…anyone wonder if the dscipline of celibacy in the Latin Rite (the western churches) is completely necessary? Just asking, not suggesting.
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I’ll second the motion.

As to 3); there have been a number of posts in these fora concerning the issue, and it would tend to sidetrack things. Most of the objections are not well thought out - and given the number of times I have seen them, I would tend to suspect that the one stating the objection did not come up with it themself. It is possible, if for no other reason than that celibacy is a discipline, that some day the Roman rite may relax the discipline. I would also supect that it will not be in this pope’s lifetime, and possibly not in mine. Then, again, it may never occur.

I tire of hearing what seems a knee-jerk reaction from Rome on the issue, that someone somewhere is proposing that celibacy be done away with and that will never happen. It may well be someone out there is proposing such but I have never met them; I have however met many who would like to see celibacy and married clergy both be options. And as they told me in the seminary - priesthood and celibacy are two completely distinct and different vocations; however, in the Roman rite, if you are going to be a priest, you are going to be celibate, period.

And for anyone who proposes that allowing married men to be ordained is somehow going to solve the priest shortage, I would suggest that whatever it is they are imbibing, it is probably highly illegal and most definitely a threat to rationality.

I think the discipline of celibacy is highly valuable to the Church; and I think the discipline of a married clergy is just as valuable. The East seems to have managed it for 2000 years, and the West is again managing it vis a vis the converts who were prior ministers - Anglican, Episcopalian, Methodist, and the Archdioces of Portland’s one Presbyterian.
 
The specific cause of the mass exodus of religious and priests has so far not been mentioned in all the above replies.

Here it is: the infamous psychologist CARL ROGERS’ personalist ‘therapy’!!!

A Catholic grad student of Roger’s, a William Coulson, who himself assisted Rogers in this diabolical work, has documented how the breakout occured after nuns and priests (especially Jesuits) had Rogers give them sessions in his therapy. Yes, it was definitely psychobabble, and VERY dangerous. It started in Southern California with IHM sisters there and soon spread to other orders. Coulson repented of his involvment.

Coulson shows how the D.A.R.E. antidrug program uses the same method. Drug use goes up after school kids receive it.
The Planned Parenthood anti-child sex abuse program follows the same pedogogy.
In all of the above there are no rights or wrongs, but you are told to follow your feelings, instead what is right. Since for Rogers there was no right or wrong, one can see what a disaster it was for religious and priestly life.
Coulson documents how Rogers, in his very last book, admitted that his personalist therapy was wrong and even disasterously harmful to people. Coulson witnessed how Rogers did not follow the personalist therapy even in Rogers’ personal life. Coulson was at Rogers’ house at a swim party. Rogers’ grandson ran along the side of the pool and was about to throw down a glass bottle on the concrete side of it. Rogers immediately called out, something like, NO, stop that. Do not throw the bottle down!
In personalist therapy, Rogers should have asked the grandson, Do you really think it is a good idea to throw the bottle? How are you feeling? Will it really make you feel good to throw the bottle? etc. etc.
 
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