What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[Cinette]

Thank you for your regurgitation of scripture. I already have this in my KJV Bible, but thank you for providing me with it again (just in case I didn’t have it). Now, regurgitate the scripture that requires us to, say ‘Hail Maries’; use rosaries; make statues; make 'man-made saints and pray to them; baptize infants that do not have a clue what is going on; recognize the Catholic Church as the one and only true Church; put parameters on God in such a way, that He can only choose a R.C. in order to provide wisdom unto the rest of mankind; accept only a R.C. as being in a position to ‘be found worthy’; etc.

Thorwald Johansen

*“Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise”.

You continue to reiterate your ignorance even after other posters have stated the truth. So this means that you refuse to take off the blindfold. That is your choice.

*

 

[Cinette]

So, I guess that benedictus2 is saying that 1John 1:9, is invalid, and that if you interpret John 20:23, to mean that mortal man has the power to forgive sin, then my goodness, our fate is in the hands of men in confessionalsThe Pharisees even believed that only God could forgive sins! And what if this priest was having a bad day, and decided not to forgive my sins! Under the new covenant, we are able to come into the throneroom of grace! Hallelujah!

&^%)%$#@&!!!:bigyikes:

 

[Thorwald]

True. But there is no getting away from the fact that the Church came first and the Word of God was written within her bossom. The Catholic Church gave the world the Bible.

Jhargus was not setting a parameter that he expects God to work withiin. Rather he is merely stating the parameter that God himself set. It was God Himself who set the parameter by first of all starting a Church.

God could have just walked around with a secretary and told him to take a dictation so he can leave us a Holy Book but no He did not do that.

What did He do instead? He started a Church. And it is this Church, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that wrote the NT.

Once you start going this line of thinking you are really opening up yourself for a lot of nasty questions and conclusions.

First, are you saying that Christ is excluding the new born from all those He desire to be saved?

Second, should a new born die, because they have not declared Jesus as their Lord and saviour, does that mean they are damned? You realize that this line of thinking can also be applied to those who cannot make any form of informed consent e.g. those born with mental defects.

Jesus did not say let the children hear the Word of God. Jesus said let the children COME to me. How do you make a baby who does not understand a thing COME TO JESUS? You baptize him/her.

Okay, a little bit of Catholic Catechism.

Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with you (Luke 1:28)
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus (Luke 1:42}
The second part is an petition asking Mary to pray for us"
Holy Mary Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. " An echo of her intercession at Cana.

That’s the Hail Mary.

The Rosary is a meditation on the Life, Death and Ressurection of Christ our Lord.

The rosary consists of 5 sets of 1 large bead and 10 little beads.
You pray the Our Father on the large bead and the Hail Mary’s on the 10 little bead.

At each set of large and small beads you meditate on Scripture.

Frist Set: Joyfull Mysteries:

1. 
   *]Annunciation (The Angel Gabriel announcement of incarnation of Christ)
   *]Visitation (Mary visit Elizabeth and John the Baptist leaps in her womb)
   *]Birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ
   *]Presentation of Jesus at the Temple
   *]Finding of Jesus in the Temple
   
   2nd set is Sorrowful Mysteries.
   1. The Agony of Jesus in the Garden
   2. The Scourgin of Jesus at the Pillar
   3. The Crowning of Thorns
   4. The Carrying of the Cross
   5. The Death of of Jesus on the Cross.
   3rd Set Mysteries of Light
   1. 
      *]Baptism of Jesus
      *]Wedding of Cana
      *]The Proclamation of the Kingdom of God
      *]The Transfiguration
      *]The Institution of the Eucharist
      
      4th Glorious Mysteries.
      1. 
         *]Resurrection of Jesus
         *]Ascension of Jesus
         *]Descent of the Holy Spirit
         *]Assumption of the Virgin Mary
         *]Coronation of Blessed Virgin Mary
         
         Note: in this set of mysteries only 2 are directly extra-Biblical.
         
         I have not indicated the Biblical verses for the mysteries because I am assuming that being Biblically informed you will know these verses.
         
         See here again, you get it wrong. Whoever said Popes created saints are protestants who have ill will in their hearts. The Pope declares someone a saint once a rigorious study of a person’s life has been completed and it has been shown that they have indeed lived a truly Christian life and that we are now sure that they are in heaven. This is usually becasue people who asked for their intercession have received some miraculous healing.
         
         All the Pope is doing is affirming that a certain person has indeed been saved because they are now with Jesus.
         
         If you look at some protestant doctrines, this is what you believe too when you are belive in the assurance of salvation. Only for you there is this great assumption that you are assured of salvation.
         
         Sorry that you find that it is obnoxious but you have to take that up with Christ Himself. He founded the Church so vent your anger at Him.
         
         Thorwald, Thorwald, Thorwald. I am not saying that at all. Notice the phrasing. All who are BEING saved.
         
         What!!!??? Another pharisee in our midst!!
         
         Actually much worse than that. Someone who presumes to be God because he knows that they are not saved.
         
         Remember Jesus story about the Pharisee and Publican? Watch what you say Buddy.

1. 1. 1. 
         Remember all of the priests that defiled the bodies of little boys that were placed in their care? I do not blame the R.C. faith for this, but the Word tells us, that we will know mankind by their works. What a person says, is often geared to the opinions/results that the speaker is trying to achieve. Their ‘works’ often tell a much different story. Their works are a true representaion of their hearts.
         
         Thorwald Johansen

 

[benedictus2]

The Word of God came first (ie. as verbal teachings). The ‘written’ Word is a documentation of these teachings.

Aaah but you fail to see that the first thing Christ did was to choose his Apostles. When He was teaching He had his apostles with Him and the Apostles, in particular Peter are the foundations of His Church.

The Church came first.

Another thing that most protestants don’t understand is that the Gospels are particular takes of the Evangelists on the life of Jesus. The Gospels were originally Catechisms on the life of Jesus written for a particular group of people.

If you cannot see the difference between only recognizing R.C. and not others who are saved, then I feel very sorry for you. You have become ‘high-headed’. Christ visited the dead, that had no connection to any church. He gave them the same chance for redemption. I guess that Christ didn’t know that only a R.C. can be saved, or that Christ made an error by saying that all Israel shall be saved. Maybe He doesn’t know this. In your next prayer, it would be nice of you to provide Him with this information. I wouldn’t want Him to do anything wrong.

This is where you misunderstand me. I never said that only those who belong to the Catholic church now will be saved. What I said was that once you are saved, if you are saved, then you will belong to the Church because Christ founded only one Chruch. The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ consisting of members here on earth, in purgatory and in heaven… He did not find churches, He found a (one) Church. And in the end, ALL who are saved will be gathered into that Church.

It will be like an “AAAAhh, the Catholic Church was right after all” and you will give assent to it.

Now read that slowly.

 

[Cinette]

Wow, cinette: You really have some rather eloquent answers; almost makes me want to believe them! When it comes to Mary(mother of Jesus, James, Joses, Jude,among others) there seems to be a difference in how we define disrespect! For me, disrespect is when you totally ignore or besmirch someone’s legacy, regardless of their situation! We non catholics, simply say that when we pray, we pray to our Father(not the pope), our Heavenly Father! In Matthew 6:6-13, Jesus, in telling Hid disciples how to pray, leads off with, “Our Father, which art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy Name” And as far as Buddhists and others, that do not recognize the divinity of Christ, and do not accept Him as their Saviour, no they are not part of the Bride of Christ!

Hi 1beleevr!

We begin “Our Father, who art in Heaven…” When I was in school and we were taught English grammar we were taught that who pertains to people and which to objects and animals…

There is a part of the Our Father which puzzles me in English and that is “…and do not lead us into temptation…” In French we say "…and do not let us succumb to temptation " which makes more sense. I hope this is corrected sometime. I am sure that all other european languages will say the same. The English, like Frank Sinatra, always like to “do it my way”!! LOL

You must not think that we Catholics look down on non Catholics. That is simply not true. You see sometimes we debate with someone and make our point and the other person begins to see the truth in what we are saying and then we have to start all over again because the next one who comes along will make the same untrue statement and so on and on and so forth etc. So forgive us if we appear to be impatient. Repeating ourselves over and over does become a little tiresome. We have to keep telling people what we believe because non-Catholics seem to think they know better than us what we believe!!!

:banghead:

 

[Cinette]

There is great freedom and joy in being outside of the catholic church! When I hear my catholic friends using profanity, getting drunk, and then saying,“It’s okay, I’m going to confession tomorrow”, I scratch my head, and thank Christ for His grace and mercy! And whether catholics accept us or not, we are,1)Saved by the blood of the Lamb, 2)Baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost(Matthew 28:20), and we are Christians, which also makes us part of the Bride of Christ! All who call upon the Name of Jesus will be saved

You certainly have weird Catholic friends.

How come I am Catholic and I have NEVER heard a Catholic talk like that?

I find it hard to believe. Perhaps they said that to you in a dream!

:nope::nope::nope:

 

[benedictus2]

Remember all of the priests that defiled the bodies of little boys that were placed in their care? I do not blame the R.C. faith for this, but the Word tells us, that we will know mankind by their works. What a person says, is often geared to the opinions/results that the speaker is trying to achieve. Their ‘works’ often tell a much different story. Their works are a true representaion of their hearts.

Thorwald Johansen

Here again, your error is due to a failure to make a distinction between the Catholic Church which is the Bride and Body of Christ and the members of the Catholic Church.

Her members are not the Catholic Church. The Church is greater than her members.

Furthermore, you need to make another distinction between doctrine and practice.

What the Church is giving is doctrine. And doctrine is important because practice follows from doctrine.

To illustrate: The Church says that divorce is wrong because Christ says so.

Now Catholics sitll get divorced. Does that mean then that the Church is wong because Catholics gets divorced.

If however the Church taught that divorce is okay, then, and only then can you say that indeed the Church is not the Church of Christ because she has started to teach error for it is very clear in Scripture that Jesus did not sanction divorce.

Yes her members sin, but the Church will always be Christ’s Church and will never teach error because Christ keeps promises and that is His promise.

 

[benedictus2]

For me to ever even consider becoming catholic again after being there for 23 years (baptized, confirmed and through school education) the church would have to go through radical changes…

Abolition of the following:

1. Veneration of the saints, especially Mary
2. Praying to saints (addressing someone else than God in a prayer is praying to that person… e.g “Hail Mary”… They cannot hear these prayers anyway… it is far better to ask a brother or sister in Christ who is among the living to pray)
3. Current definition of “saint” as every member of the true church is a saint already and we are justified through Him… Paul talks to and about the members of the churches as saints.
4. Transubstantiation…
5. Adoration of the eucharist (blasphemy) instead of focusing on the Word of God
6. Perpetual adoration
7. Special priesthood…
8. Only the church and especially the pope can interpret scripture
9. Infallibility of the pope when he is speaking ex cathedra
10. Sacraments as a means of salvation (works do follow once we are saved because we are already saved)
11. Infant baptism
12. Confession to a priest (though I think that general spiritual guidance and help is appropriate when sought… confessions however are to be made to God)
13. Forgiveness of sins through the church
14. Prayer for the deceased (if they are in hell it is too late… if they are in heaven there is no need)
15. Purgatory (It is either heaven or hell… either a full atonement through the sacrifice of the Lord or none)
16. Classification of sins (the wages of sin is death)
17. Salvation as a graduate process
18. Apocrypha
19. Teachings about Mary, including her staying a virgin after Jesus was born, the assumption that she was without sin and the she ascended into heaven with her body and soul
20. Excluding women from the clergy
21. Forced celibacy of the clergy
22. The church as the Church of Christ instead of realizing that the Church are truly all Christians that are saved and atoned for by the blood of Christ
23. Not accepting other Christian churches are equally valid and right while declaring that somebody who was raised in a totally different religion can obtain salvation if he was truly seeking after God… (Jesus said “I AM THE WAY” and He meant it)
24. Not opposing the evolution theory
25. Traditions as equally important as God’s Word in the Bible
26. Not acknowledging that salvation is only by the pure grace of God
27. Not acknowledging the absolute inerrant Word of God as manifested in the Bible

Well those would be some…
I would turn back to the church if these things weren’t there… These were the reasons for me turning away in the first place… Without these I could reconcile with the church without conflicting with my conscience…
Thanks you for asking and reading through this…

In Him,
Janet

Hhmm I will try to reply to your post in bits and pieces because it is quite a long list.

But first, I am glad that the Church will never ever listen to you because the moment it does then the gates of hell will have prevailed for it will have started to teach lies. But God keeps His promise so that wil not happen.

Your position is nothing more than that of one who adheres to Sola Ego and you follow the unholy trinity of I/Me and Myself.

Your post stem from a painful lack of knowledge of the faith you say you were brought up in. Ignorance can be remedied but from the tone of your post you are in no hurry to be informed.

So here’s the first.

1. The Hail Mary. If you know your Bible you will know that this is a verse from Luke. The Angel Gabriel addressed her as such. But why should you. You are probably better than the Angel Gabriel.
2. Forgiveness of sins through the Church. Well you will have to take that up with Christ Himself since He was the one who gave the apostles and their successors the power to forgive sins. HE WILLED IT THIS WAY.
3. Apocrypha. The Church alone has the guidance of the Holy Spirit to determine which books are canonical or not. Luther got rid of the Deuterocanonicals because he wanted to shape the Scripture according to a point of view. He was teaching Sola Fide and since Maccabees goes against his position, he had to get rid of it. But since he cannot get rid of just Maccabees he got rid of the entire deuterocanonical. What pride and egotism to think that he can determine which books should belong or not. He mutilated the Bible to serve his own egotistic agenda.
4. Women priests - Christ never chose a woman as an apostle.
5. This may grate against you but the Church IS the Church of Christ. Christ founded only one Church.

It seems to me from your above post that your issue is not with the Church but with Christ because of the things the HE WILLED which goes against **what you would have **Him will.

 

[Thorwald]

Aaah but you fail to see that the first thing Christ did was to choose his Apostles. When He was teaching He had his apostles with Him and the Apostles, in particular Peter are the foundations of His Church.

The original 12 disciples (less the one ‘bad guy’, and plus the new guy) had a very special purpose. They became ‘human witnesses’ to the truth of what took place and spoken during Christ’s life, death and resurrection. Christ prayed unto His Father concerning them, before He ascended up to heaven. I agree that these final 12, plus the new apostles, are the beginning of the creation of the church (the body of Christ, with Christ at the helm), which was based on the teachings of Christ. Every Christian believes this to be so. The question arises, however, “Is this ‘body’ the same today as it was in the beginning, or has there been changes, that are not pleasing to God?”

The Church came first.

Another thing that most protestants don’t understand is that the Gospels are particular takes of the Evangelists on the life of Jesus. The Gospels were originally Catechisms on the life of Jesus written for a particular group of people.

Yes. I agree.

This is where you misunderstand me. I never said that only those who belong to the Catholic church now will be saved. What I said was that once you are saved, if you are saved, then you will belong to the Church because Christ founded only one Chruch. The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ consisting of members here on earth, in purgatory and in heaven… He did not find churches, He found a (one) Church. And in the end, ALL who are saved will be gathered into that Church.

If you follow the different threads in this forum, you will find that most R.C. responses ‘lean’ towards R.C. or no salvation.

It will be like an “AAAAhh, the Catholic Church was right after all” and you will give assent to it.

Or, The Protestants were right after all.

Now read that slowly.

Thorwald Johansen

 

[benedictus2]

First a request. Please use bigger fonts. Font 3 is a good size.

The original 12 disciples (less the one ‘bad guy’, and plus the new guy) had a very special purpose. They became ‘human witnesses’ to the truth of what took place and spoken during Christ’s life, death and resurrection. Christ prayed unto His Father concerning them, before He ascended up to heaven. I agree that these final 12, plus the new apostles, are the beginning of the creation of the church (the body of Christ, with Christ at the helm), which was based on the teachings of Christ. Every Christian believes this to be so. The question arises, however, “Is this ‘body’ the same today as it was in the beginning, or has there been changes, that are not pleasing to God?”

Yes, it is. It is no longer an acorn. It is now an oak tree. No longer a baby, but a full mature adult but still the same person.

And there will be no changes. Only true development of doctrine as the baby develops into an adult.

There will be no changes displeasing to God for it is His Church and He will see to it that she will not fall into error. His Spirit is the one guiding her into all Truth. Otherwise, He is not able to keep His promise and therefore he is not God which is highly unlikely and impossible.

If you follow the different threads in this forum, you will find that most R.C. responses ‘lean’ towards R.C. or no salvation.

They are probably not so good at phrasing themselves.

Or, The Protestants were right after all.

Extremely, highly, totally unlikely! Because the protestants have already taught error. Once they broke away from the Christ’s Church the lies started creeping in; little ones that seem innocuous. But you see the devil will not lead you astray with a big lie because that will be so easy to spot. Little lies. Now that just might fall under the radar and voila, they did.

 

[Thorwald]

Here again, your error is due to a failure to make a distinction between the Catholic Church which is the Bride and Body of Christ and the members of the Catholic Church.

Her members are not the Catholic Church. The Church is greater than her members.

Furthermore, you need to make another distinction between doctrine and practice.

What the Church is giving is doctrine. And doctrine is important because practice follows from doctrine.

To illustrate: The Church says that divorce is wrong because Christ says so.

Now Catholics sitll get divorced. Does that mean then that the Church is wong because Catholics gets divorced.

If however the Church taught that divorce is okay, then, and only then can you say that indeed the Church is not the Church of Christ because she has started to teach error for it is very clear in Scripture that Jesus did not sanction divorce.

Yes her members sin, but the Church will always be Christ’s Church and will never teach error because Christ keeps promises and that is His promise.

Uh, duh! That’s what I just said.

 

[benedictus2]

Uh, duh! That’s what I just said.

Actually not. You said something completely different. Go back and re-read your post and my reply.

 

[w_stewart]

I am sorry to say, “You are totally brain-washed. Answer my request, that your thread (above) refers to.”

If my premises are wrong, then perhaps I am brainwashed. To prove that I am indeed brainwashed, disprove my premises.

You are also ignoring the ‘other’ teachings of Christ;

1. All Israel shall be saved.

1. We will return to the days of Noah.

Did you mean these statements literally?

1. The last days shall be filled with false prophesy, visions, dreams, fearful times, etc.

1. That God will provide wisdom to all of us, and that we should discuss these ‘gifts’ amongst ourselves, each in turn, given the opportunity to reveal what has been given unto us.

How did I ignore these?

The Word of God is not owned by any man or any individual Christian church/religion. The minute that you make such a statement, you create a ‘parameter’ that you expect God to work within. What a horrible thing to do.

Blame God for what I said was the teaching of the Body of Christ. The pillar and foundation of the truth is the Church founded by Christ. Outside of this Church, completeness of the truth cannot be found.

We must always think of what happened to Aaron’s sons, when they added incense to the offering. This happened, simply because they had carried out an act that God had not told them to do. What do you think God’s reaction is going to be, when we change (add to/delete from) His Word?

Thorwald Johansen

What have I added to His Word and what have I deleted from it?

 

[w_stewart]

I guess that really is the $64,000 question, isn’t it;"Do you believe that the catholic church is the “church” that Christ founded?

Do you believe otherwise? If so, who founded the Catholic Church?

BTW, you keep ignoring my question regarding the role of the Church founded by Christ in our salvation. You admitted already that this Church is important. So what is the role of the Church in our salvation?

I hope you will no longer evade.

 

[w_stewart]

From my understanding, the Orthodox church was the first.

So the Orthodox Church was the Church founded by Christ? Why are you not Orthodox then?

 

[Thorwald]

First a request. Please use bigger fonts. Font 3 is a good size.

** I was trying to figure out how my font got smaller. After reading your message (above), I noticed the little words ‘Fonts’ and ‘Sizes’ above. I didn’t notice them before. **

Yes, it is. It is no longer an acorn. It is now an oak tree. No longer a baby, but a full mature adult but still the same person.

I don’t agree with you. There seems to be a great deal of effort spent on needless ‘fringes’, rather than on the ‘core’ of the Christian faith. I believe that many are perishing because not enough effort is being spent on ‘feeding His sheep’.

And there will be no changes. Only true development of doctrine as the baby develops into an adult.

There will be no changes displeasing to God for it is His Church and He will see to it that she will not fall into error. His Spirit is the one guiding her into all Truth. Otherwise, He is not able to keep His promise and therefore he is not God which is highly unlikely and impossible.

They are probably not so good at phrasing themselves.

Extremely, highly, totally unlikely! Because the protestants have already taught error. Once they broke away from the Christ’s Church the lies started creeping in; little ones that seem innocuous. But you see the devil will not lead you astray with a big lie because that will be so easy to spot. Little lies. Now that just might fall under the radar and voila, they did.

**You are measuring Protestantism with the same brush as Protestants are measuring Catholicism…by individual memberships. The actions of specific persons or groups, cannot take away from the validity of what the Protestant religion was supposed to represent. **

 

[w_stewart]

There is great freedom and joy in being outside of the catholic church! When I hear my catholic friends using profanity, getting drunk, and then saying,“It’s okay, I’m going to confession tomorrow”, I scratch my head, and thank Christ for His grace and mercy!

It is not acceptable to the Catholic Church, either. The Church defines repentance and contrition differently from the case you presented above.

And whether catholics accept us or not, we are,1)Saved by the blood of the Lamb, 2)Baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost(Matthew 28:20), and we are Christians, which also makes us part of the Bride of Christ! All who call upon the Name of Jesus will be saved

That is debatable, even doubtful.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, 2John1vs3,

I certainly hope you did not hold anything back in this litany of things you disaree with on the Catholic Church. The next time you launch such a tirade, please use paragraph form - it certainly makes it easier to read.

Does truth matter. Let’s weigh the pronouncements, decrees, bull(s) of popes throughout the centuries against the word of God in the Bible “Every word of God is pure…” Proverbs 30:5. (And for those who say the Catholic church gave us the Bible look here: Psalm 119:89 “For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.” [That looks like it was around forever, a lot longer than the church at Rome])

Rather then try to take every point you questioned, how about just looking at your first one and see exactly what is involved.

Your quote from Psalm 119 is interesting. If the Bible was around ‘forever’ as you say, then it was certainly ‘around’ before David was born…who wrote the Psalms And, simply from a historical view, having something exist before the one who worte it was born…t makes no sense at all. Of course, God always knew about the Bible - but, He did not write it! God - acting in time - inspired certain men to write certain books that later were collected and determined to be inspired (by the Catholic Church ) and then assembeled into what we call the Bible. All of this took place in time and under God’s direction.

Think back to the Acts of the Apostles Chapter 2:1-5. Notice with all of this activity by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, not once does it say that He delivered a book! The Bible, as a written document (or, a collection of written documents, if you will) has a particular origin, with the first books of the OT being written by Moses and the last book of the NT being written by St. John. But, in reality, many people wrote many things - so, there was a point where a decision had to be made about which books were inspired and which were not. The Catholic Church, guided by the same Holy Spirit that is guiding the Catholic Church today, made that determination. The book you hold in your hands - and the name you have chosen for yourself - can all be traced back to the actions of the Catholic Church. How about that!

May I suggest that you do your own research, and find out the truth for yourself. And, please, use more then one source. The apparent anti-Catholic bias you displayed in your post does not do you credit.

Welcome to the list… “Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father’s Son in truth and love.”

God bless

 

[Lothair]

Orthodoxy really is a lot easier in doctrine for a lot of evangelicals, I think. Perhaps discussions between the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches will lead the Roman church to soften its stand on those post schism doctines and dogma that cause protestants a lot of difficulty as well.

Orthodoxy in practice, is however, a lot more foreign to most evangelicals than your typical low Catholic parish.

Orthodox doctrine and RC practice would be a better combination in my opinion–something similar to anglo-catholicism.

I have never liked that in these discussions. When one denomination tell another what it thinks and teaches. Evangelicals to that to Catholics all the time. They like to tell us what we teach, then cite an *Evangelical *souce to make the point. Roman Catholics should not be doing the same thing to Orthodox or Anglicans.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Thorwald,

I couldn’t help “overhearing” your conversation. (Well, parts of it anyways. I have to admit that I didn’t read all 50 of the posts that showed up here since last night – some of which didn’t even show up my screen, thankfully, do to the “Ignore List” feature of this website.)

From my understanding, the Orthodox church was the first.

Thorwald Johansen

For what it’s worth to ya, my view is that the Orthodox are in schism from the Catholic Church, and hence we (i.e. the Catholic Church) are the ones who came first.

The Orthodox believe the reverse, and I respect their opinion. I find it curious, however, that you believe that the Orthodox Church came first (hence, presumably, you believe that the RCC is in schism from the EOC) and yet you haven’t joined the Orthodox Church.