What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[Peter_J]

There is nothing wrong with the original teachings.

 

[Peter_J]

When I hear my catholic friends using profanity, getting drunk, and then saying,“It’s okay, I’m going to confession tomorrow”,

Your statement reminds me of the recent thread that asked Protestants why they don’t kill themselves if they consider themselves to be once-saved-always-saved.

 

[jlhargus]

**You are measuring Protestantism with the same brush as Protestants are measuring Catholicism…by individual memberships. The actions of specific persons or groups, cannot take away from the validity of what the Protestant religion was supposed to represent. **

JL: Which of the thousands of Protestant religions are your calling valid? There Is no such thing, as A PROTESTANT RELIGION, just a sola scripture tower of Babel, of contentious groups all claiming they are guided by the Holy Spirit. Yet they keep splitting into new groups year after year, because another interpretes the scripture differently.

 

[guanophore]

Thank you for your regurgitation of scripture. I already have this in my KJV Bible, but thank you for providing me with it again (just in case I didn’t have it). Now, regurgitate the scripture that requires us to, say ‘Hail Maries’; use rosaries; make statues; make 'man-made saints and pray to them; baptize infants that do not have a clue what is going on; recognize the Catholic Church as the one and only true Church; put parameters on God in such a way, that He can only choose a R.C. in order to provide wisdom unto the rest of mankind; accept only a R.C. as being in a position to ‘be found worthy’; etc.

Thorwald Johansen

Thank you for answering the question of the OP,Thor. In spite of your hostility, and your ignorance of the Catholic faith, it is clear which issues prevent you from being united with Catholics. Now might be a good time for you to review the forum rules, so that all this hostility does not result in unwanted consequences.

 

[Cinette]

I guess that really is the $64,000 question, isn’t it;"Do you believe that the catholic church is the “church” that Christ founded?

That is up to you to find out. If you delve into history and go right back, pray and ask God’s guidance and keep an open mind you might discover all sorts of wonderful things.

People who HATED the Catholic Church more than you do ended up IN the Church. Did you know that?

The Catholic Church is for everyone especially for sinners. It is awsome and beautiful but…it is not easy. That is why we call certain people Cafetaria Catholics because like to select what suits them.

Also please get out of your mind that we look down on non-Catholics. I know I am repeating myself for the 1000th time but we are more charitable to you than you are to us. We love and appreciate non-Catholics - they keep us on our toes and…they make the most awsome Catholics.

Peace be with you
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

Remember all of the priests that defiled the bodies of little boys that were placed in their care? I do not blame the R.C. faith for this, but the Word tells us, that we will know mankind by their works. What a person says, is often geared to the opinions/results that the speaker is trying to achieve. Their ‘works’ often tell a much different story. Their works are a true representaion of their hearts.

Thorwald Johansen

“You will know them by their fruits f r u i t s…”

Thorwald I think it is time for you to take a sabbatical from the CAF and do some serious study and then present yourself because what you have been doing on this thread is everytime you open your mouth you take out one foot and place the other in! Seriously, one does not advance in this debate with you and you are making some really outrageous statement proving that…

God bless you
Cinette

 

[Auriel]

WOW! I do not have time to read all of these posts. Just to answer the question asked: What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic.

I would never convert. But if I was the converting kind, they would have to change…nothing.

I have more respect for an established religion who knows what they believe in and are not changing/marketing just to build membership. I can’t respect a religion whose doctrinal foundation changes constantly. It would me question where the inspiration came from.

I assume you are talking about doctrinal issues.

 

[guanophore]

Okay, my mission, should I decide to accept it, is, to find the word catholic in the Bible; and I do accept the challenge, because benedictus2 says that it’s in there

Jesus only founded One Church, beleevr. He only has One Body. He did not wish for HIs Body to fractured and divided.

The first description of this One Church as Catholic is found in: Acts 9:31

31 So the **church throughout all **Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.

This phrase (also known as “universal” church) Comes from the Gk. ekklesia kath holos (the Church throughout). This is how the Church was referred to up until the Great Schism in 1054 when the East separated from the West.

However, there are also many other names for the Church in scripture, and these are also often used by our separated brethren to describe the Body to which they believe they belong.

 

[jlhargus]

Thank you for your regurgitation of scripture. I already have this in my KJV Bible, but thank you for providing me with it again (just in case I didn’t have it). Thorwald Johansen

JL: Well you admit they are scripture and in the KJV. After reading some of your posts, I can understand why you would see the scriptures as vomit, the truth of scriptures seems to upset your stomach.

Jesus is ‘The Word in the flesh’. Jesus also states, “And the word which ye hear, is not mine, but The Father’s who sent me.” By this statement, I would have to assume, that His Father is also The Word. Thorwald Johansen

JL: The Word was with God, the Word was God and the Word was made flesh. The Word was not the Father anymore than your word is you.

Believe what you will. I simply follow what little scripture is left for us to follow. I have seen what I have seen. When I have a problem with the understanding of scripture, I go to God for wisdom…not man.

JL: What little scripture is left? The scriptures I used, which you admit are in the KJV, yet you call them vomit. Did your VISION tell you those scriptures are not the little scripture we have left? I don’t know what you have seen, but I know Satan can appear as an angel of light.

The Trinity and the Godhead consists of four figures, not three, as all of Christianity believes. I have been in their presence. I have seen Jesus Christ and His Father, the Lord God Almighty. I could not see The Father or The Holy Ghost, but was made aware of their presence.

JL: You say “the Trinity and the Godhead consist of four figures”. Can four be a Trinity? So according to your VISION we now should say quadron?

The above has been taught to me by God, Himself. He called His Word, “broken” and asked me if I would ‘fix’ this broken Word. I said that I would. He asked me if I thought that I could handle it. I told Him, “Yes.” This is what I am now doing. I asked Him ‘who or what I was’. He simply told me, that ‘I am who I am’.

JL: Well maybe someone taught you that directly. God’s Word is broken? Mt24:25 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. [If you are a sincere person you will go back to one of those pastors of those faith groups from which you were asked to leave and seek sincere counseling and discernment.] Gal1:18 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

 

[jlhargus]

WOW! I do not have time to read all of these posts. Just to answer the question asked: What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic.

I would never convert. But if I was the converting kind, they would have to change…nothing.

I have more respect for an established religion who knows what they believe in and are not changing/marketing just to build membership. I can’t respect a religion whose doctrinal foundation changes constantly. It would me question where the inspiration came from.

I assume you are talking about doctrinal issues.

JL: Excellent answer and one reason I did convert.

 

[Cinette]

WOW! I do not have time to read all of these posts. Just to answer the question asked: What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic.

I would never convert. But if I was the converting kind, they would have to change…nothing.

I have more respect for an established religion who knows what they believe in and are not changing/marketing just to build membership. I can’t respect a religion whose doctrinal foundation changes constantly. It would me question where the inspiration came from.

I assume you are talking about doctrinal issues.

Hello Auriel!!

Never say never sweetheart!

I am a granny so I can call you sweetheart.

Stick around - you will be surprised by truth!

Peace
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

Hey Thorwald !!

About that sabbatical…??

 

[2John1vs3]

*Really?

"God puts belief into us “raith is a gift” - true. But how do you know that God has put an intrepretation into your heart - if your interpretation is different from the other person?

I think it would be wise to read what Jesus said about His Church and to His Apostles. Surely Jesus kept his promises that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church into all truth? You really need to reflect these things.

Peace
Cinette*

I’ve read the following and invite you to gainsay if you can its import that we [those God hath chosen for Himself, His Elect, His sheep] have been given a Spirit of Truth. The problem is not with God’s word, “every word of God is pure”. The problem is that some have wrested the scripture to their destruction. And how is that done?: By adding to and subtracting from what God has said; by making it up as you go: e.g. making Peter the rock when it is clear from every scripture concerning “rock” that rock refers to GOD; making the pope the arbiter of truth when the Holy Spirit is the guide of the Church; making a sacerdotal system via the ministration of priests the means of grace when it is clear biblically that grace is always a gift of God infused into us not by ritualistic practices but by faith – which in itself IS “the work of God” John 6… etc, etc, etc.

Anyway, here’s the promise from the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ which proves that any member of His flock can understand what He says and means without mediation from the pope and his curial assistants.

JOHN 14:16-18,26 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That’s good enough for me. The pope and his followers need to read the Bible and stop pretending to stand in the place of the Lord.

Check it out: Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”
What part of “ALL” is left out or over for the pope et al to claim for themselves?

 

[guanophore]

I thought that in order to be saved, we have to believe in Jesus Christ (in all that this encompasses), and then be baptised.

This is one of the formulations of salvation based on how people read and understand the Bible. The Apostles, however, taught us to also baptize infants and children, and raise them in the faith. They taught that baptism replaced circumcision as the entrance rite into the New Covenant.

How does a new-born fit into this? I know that we are to let children hear the Word of God, and not turn them away (this is in the KJV Bible also).

Chilren are baptized on the basis of their parents (and Godparents’) faith,and their promises to raise them in the faith.

Please quote the scripture, that ‘Hail Mary’ is based upon (and while you are at it, the rosary, also).

This has already been done very well further up in the thread. I suggest you go back and read it. I will point out here that you are basing some of your objections on the erroneous assumption that all doctrines and faith practices must be found explicitly in the Bible. The Rosary is not among the doctrines taught by the Apostles. It is a pious devotion developed in the Latin Rite to assist the faithful with their daily prayers. It’s use is not required by the Catholic church.

We hear over and over, the creation of ‘saints’ by the Pope. Has not a single person told you of these ‘creations’?

No. When the Pope proclaims someone a “saint” it is because God has already made a saint . The Pope is making public recognition of what God has done so that the faithful may be confident in emulating the life of that person. The Pope cannot “create” saints, only proclaim what has been revealed to the Church by God,that certain persons are already in heaven.

Your view concerning the R.C. Church being on a special pedistal, is obnoxious. It is written, that we do not even know if our own spouses are saved ( 1 Cor, chpt 7, I believe).

IT is Jesus who founded the Church, and set her on a pedestal. He wanted her to be light and salt in the world, a city on a hill. None of us know we are saved until the end of this life. The passage you cited says “how do you know you WILL save them?”

Here you are telling me, that every single member of your church, is saved. I doubt this claim.

You are operating from a deficient understanding of salvation.

However baptism does save, fully and completely.

I know a lot of R.C. people, personally, and by their words and actions, I can tell that they are not saved.

It is a sad fact that there are many tares among the wheat.

Do not play ‘the Holy’ role with me. It won’t work. You will know a man/woman by their deeds.

Are you angry at those Catholics who do not lead a life worthy of the calling to which they have been called?

Do you realize that the anger of a man does not accomplish the righteousness of God.? Would it not serve God better to pray for them to be delivered from sins?

The apostles did indeed go forth, and start forming groups and congregations, that truly lived up to Christ’s teachings. It is what has happened since, that I protest against.

Your posts have made it clear that you have no idea what has happened since, and that you are protesting against you imagination of what has occurred. It bears very little resemblance to historical fact.

Many that go to church, will not even bring their Bible with them in public. Christ, Himself warns us, that if we are ashamed of Him, He will not come forward in our defense on judgement day.

Amen!

I am not angry with people.

Really?
It doesn’t show.

I am angry with how people have been deceived by satan in such a way, that they believe that they, personally, are righteous, but Jesus doesn’t know them. Their ‘works’ tell us the truth.

Thor, your expressions on this thread have not been exemplary either. You might want to consider tending to the log in your own eye first. Nevertheless, it is quite clear from your posts that you have many misunderstandings about the catholic faith. This is also, I believe, one of the main reasons that people avoid Catholicism. They have been deceived by satan in such a way as to believe things that are not true.

 

[Peter_J]

Thorwald,

Religion: Protestant

With all due respect, I don’t think you should be calling yourself “Protestant” if you believe that “the Godhead consists of four figures, not three”.

Protestants, like Catholics, believe in a Triune God.

The Trinity and the Godhead consists of four figures, not three, as all of Christianity believes. I have been in their presence. I have seen Jesus Christ and His Father, the Lord God Almighty. I could not see The Father or The Holy Ghost, but was made aware of their presence.

The Trinity is The Father, The Son (The Word) and The Holy Ghost. The Son (The Lord God Almighty) created His redeemer (The Lord of Hosts), before creating all else. This is why Jesus glorified His Father rather than Himself. Jesus was created as the first Son of God.

 

[guanophore]

No adjudication on biblical meaning is really necessary in the same sense that matters of “natural law” can’t be debated in denial of their clear meaning.

That is just it, 2John. It is not “clear” to everyone. There is another thread running on the topic of people having surgery to change their gender from male to female,or vicev versa. Their “clear” understanding of “natural law” differs from others.

Everyone “knows” abortion is murder. God wrote that into our souls when He created us.

No, they don’t. And in case you had not noticed, some people’s consciences are seared as with a hot iron, so they can’t “read” what it written there.

Similarly, we know what His words mean, if He has chosen us to know. And the pope or the bishops around him don’t know any better than any elect person just what God’s word says.

I will agree that God does choose us to know, but He also appointed pastors and teachers, so that we would not have to figure it out by ourselves. The advantage that the Pope and the Magesterium has is Jesus promise that they will be led into all truth. This promise was not given to those who are not in unity with the authority appointed by Christ.

God puts belief into us; “faith is a gift”. What we believe is not from some committee in Rome.

Faith is a gift, just as is our intellect, and our bodies. All that we have, and all that we are is a gift from Him. However, the faith, like our arms and legs, belong to us,a nd are under our control. God has given us freedom to place our faith other places than in Him, just as he has given us the freedom yield our members to iniquity. The advantate of the faith of the “committee in Rome” is that they have the duty and privilege to preserve the faith as it was handed down by the Apostles.

Psalm 119:89 “For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.”
Proverbs 30:5 “Every word of God is pure…”

This is why, when Jesus gave His authority to the Church, He told them that whatever they bound on earth was bound in heaven.

 

[2John1vs3]

Hi, 2John1vs3,

I certainly hope you did not hold anything back in this litany of things you disaree with on the Catholic Church. The next time you launch such a tirade, please use paragraph form - it certainly makes it easier to read.

Rather then try to take every point you questioned, how about just looking at your first one and see exactly what is involved.

Your quote from Psalm 119 is interesting. If the Bible was around ‘forever’ as you say, then it was certainly ‘around’ before David was born…who wrote the Psalms And, simply from a historical view, having something exist before the one who worte it was born…t makes no sense at all. Of course, God always knew about the Bible - but, He did not write it! God - acting in time - inspired certain men to write certain books that later were collected and determined to be inspired (by the Catholic Church ) and then assembeled into what we call the Bible. All of this took place in time and under God’s direction.

Think back to the Acts of the Apostles Chapter 2:1-5. Notice with all of this activity by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, not once does it say that He delivered a book! The Bible, as a written document (or, a collection of written documents, if you will) has a particular origin, with the first books of the OT being written by Moses and the last book of the NT being written by St. John. But, in reality, many people wrote many things - so, there was a point where a decision had to be made about which books were inspired and which were not. The Catholic Church, guided by the same Holy Spirit that is guiding the Catholic Church today, made that determination. The book you hold in your hands - and the name you have chosen for yourself - can all be traced back to the actions of the Catholic Church. How about that!

May I suggest that you do your own research, and find out the truth for yourself. And, please, use more then one source. The apparent anti-Catholic bias you displayed in your post does not do you credit.

Welcome to the list… “Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father’s Son in truth and love.”

God bless

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but your answer is a typically smug Catholic response to a much deeper underlying reality. I’ve been where you are and somehow [God’s grace in me] learned to look at it differently, in a way that made sense, with integrity in the word itself and not in explanations of what the word says. I invite you to consider that the Catholic Church is akin to “The Matrix”.
The Catholic Church did NOT give us the Bible. You need to show more respect for what the Bible is. And please distinguish “the Bible” from “scripture”. Scripture is what Jesus read in Luke 4. It’s a copy of a copy of a copy etc. It is “the Word” written down, collected, made portable…whatever.The Bible is the word of God. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God.All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”
You say my contention is illogical. God is eternal, His Word is eternal. For ever it is established in heaven. If we have more or less of it (scripturally) here on earth at particular points in time that’s God’s will. There’s no more that can be added to it now because the coming of Jesus Christ IS its fulfillment, Jesus Christ IS the fulfillment. So the scripture from His time is the totality of scripture, which we call the Bible (but again the Bible is in truth a much deeper reality than that book you’ve got. By the way, mine is an AV1611 King James Bible.
I don’t know if you caught the link I posted above, but there’s a sermon on this subject of “What the Bible Says About Itself” [yeh, the BOOK speaks about itself] at (Anti-Catholic site link to not directly related to topic removed). Check it out. Belief in the inerrant word of God (which was “in the beginning”) is a prerequisite to belief in the Resurrection which is a prerequisite for salvation. [And it is ALL a gift of God, by His Will (not ours), by His sovereign operation and decree (not the pope’s)] Amen.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

It’s all about Jesus, not the Catholic Church. He is the vine, we are the branches. Apart from Him we can do nothing. (Doesn’t say anything about, apart from the Catholic Church we can do nothing. Have faith in Him, not some institution. He’s the mediator between God and man, NOT the pope and the Catholic Church. You’re looking at Jesus. Don’t be like those who still doubted.

Matthew 28:17 “And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.”

 

[jlhargus]

I’ve read the following and invite you to gainsay if you can its import that we [those God hath chosen for Himself, His Elect, His sheep] have been given a Spirit of Truth. The problem is not with God’s word, “every word of God is pure”. The problem is that some have wrested the scripture to their destruction. And how is that done?: By adding to and subtracting from what God has said; by making it up as you go: e.g. making Peter the rock when it is clear from every scripture concerning “rock” that rock refers to GOD; making the pope the arbiter of truth when the Holy Spirit is the guide of the Church; making a sacerdotal system via the ministration of priests the means of grace when it is clear biblically that grace is always a gift of God infused into us not by ritualistic practices but by faith – which in itself IS “the work of God” John 6… etc, etc, etc.

Anyway, here’s the promise from the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ which proves that any member of His flock can understand what He says and means without mediation from the pope and his curial assistants.

JOHN 14:16-18,26 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

That’s good enough for me. The pope and his followers need to read the Bible and stop pretending to stand in the place of the Lord.

Check it out: Matthew 28:18 “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”
What part of “ALL” is left out or over for the pope et al to claim for themselves?

JL: Who was our Lord speaking to in both those instances? Everyone or the apostles. Ask yourself if all baptized were given the gift to be lead into ALL TRUTHh, why are there so many contradicting denominations. All claiming the bible as thier only source and the same Holy Spirit guiding them in ALL TRUTH. Yet they can’t agree, but split everytime there is a dispute within them.

Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT? Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES; JN 17:18 As you have SENT me into the world I also SENT them into the world 20 I do not pray for these alone but for those who will BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD 21 THAT THEY ALL MY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME.] Christ is praying for one specific visible sent group the Apostles Fellowship, that hearing their word and being one in fellowship, the world may believe the Father sent him. I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world. [Mt 28:16 the eleven disciples 18 Jesus spoke to THEM All power is given to me in heaven and in earth 19 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 TEACHING to observe ALL things whatever I have COMMANDED you I AM WITH YOU always even TO THE END.] The great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given, sent the apostles to TEACH ALL to observe what he taught, they were to go to all nations. Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them till the end of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end, but their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop till the end.

[LK 22:29 I appoint you A KINGDOM as my Father has appointed me 30 That you may eat and drink AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel 31 SIMON Satan has desired to have you 32 I have prayed for you that YOUR FAITH FAIL NOT when you are converted, STRENGTHEN YOUR BRETHREN.] When Peter is converted his faith will never fail, he is to strengthen all the brethren as Universal Pastor. Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular) Peter’s faith fail not, when converted , this was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement, with the successor of Peter.

Continued

 

[jlhargus]

Continued:

[ACTS 2:41 they that RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED 42 THEY CONTINUED STEDFASTLY in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE FELLOWSHIP in BREAKING BREAD and in PRAYERS. 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS Christ 10 I appeal to you BRETHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and the same judgment.] One fellowship no matter where it is located in the world. [Lk 24:48 you are witnesses of these things 49 I SEND the promise of my Father upon you WAIT in Jerusalem TILL YOU ARE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Jn 16:13 When THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH comes HE WILL GUIDE YOU into ALL the TRUTH Jn 14:26 the Holy Spirit HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL things and BRING ALL things TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE WHATEVER I HAVE SAID TO YOU.] Christ is speaking to the Apostlic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through secessors, till the end of the world.

[2 TIM 1:6 …stir up the GIFT OF GOD IN YOU BY THE PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS 7 God has GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF POWER. TITUS 1:5 For this I left you in Crete that you should set in order …and ORDAIN ELDERS in EVERY CITY AS I APPOINTED YOU. ACTS 14:23 when they had ORDAINED elders IN EVERY CHURCH and prayed with fasting they commended them to the Lord on whom they believed. ACTS 20:28 Take heed of yourself, and the flock over which the HOLY SPIRIT has MADE you overseers to feed the church of God purchased with his own blood, 1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE. 1 TIM 4:13 Till I come attend to READING to EXHORTATION to DOCTRINE 14 Do not neglect THE GIFT in you GIVEN you by prophecy WITH THE LAYING ON OF the HANDS of the presbytery 16 TAKE HEED to yourself to THE DOCTRINE continue in them for in doing this you shalt both SAVE yourself and THOSE WHO HEAR YOU.] I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not appointed and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. Except false teachers, who may even have been ordaind by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They go out on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology. Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT Jer23:21 I DID NOT SEND these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied [Those not sent are false teachers.] 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority sent by Christ till the end). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order, Jn 17:21 THAT THEY MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you that they also may be one in us THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME

I am led by and continue steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one sent fellowship Christ sent to teach all he commanded, Mt 28:20, as he promised to sent the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17. I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead in all truth, not hit and miss truth. to follow those, whom Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught, those to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, 1 TM 3:14
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[jlhargus]

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I followed the brothers from Palestine to Rome, two of the greatest, Peter and Paul who were both martyred in Rome. The successor of Peter is the bishop of Rome, and holds the keys of the Davidic kingdom a type or foreshadowing of the regenerated and restored spiritual kingdom of Israel in the new covenant (Mt 19:28). Christ the Son of David is king in David’s line, who will build a house for God, (2Sam 7:12-14). Peter is the first minister (prime minister) [Isa22:19 I will drive you from your station 20 I will call my servant Eliakim 21 I will commit your government to his hand he shall be a father to the people of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut he shall shut and none shall open] Eliakim will be the new Prime Minster and called father of Jerusalem, in the Davidic Kingdom, he will succeed Shebna. So in the restored Kingdom of David, Peter will be Prime Minister and called father=pope in the new Jerusalem=Church. The keys indicate the holder has authority over the other royal ministers (or apostles) as they do not receive keys, also indicates the head office has successors. When the office is vacant it is filled by the King in David’s line, who is Christ, with another by giving of the keys. Jesus alluded to this passage when giving the keys to Peter, Mt 16. Incidentally if Christ is King in David’s line, his mother, which all generations will call blessed, is Gebirah (Queen Mother) 1Kings 2:19. From Solomon the son of David, who built a house for God, there was an office of queen mother in the Dividic Kingdom, the type and foreshadowing of the new Kingdom. The king Christ, the Son of David, is building a habitaion for God of living stones.