What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[Cinette]

I will not be back on this forum as it is feeding my spirit with much false doctrine and is grieving the Holy Spirit.
There are many lost souls out there that are willing to listen and I need to go to them.
I have been given a gift of Love and I do love all of you, so much, but we are told to move on if people reject the gospel.
Repent and come out of the apostate catholic church, before it is too late for you.
With sincere love, Repent!

It is very important that you follow your own conscience. I wish you well

However, it seemed to me that you believe what you want to believe and are not prepared to debate. These forums offer an opportunity for us to get to know people of other faiths. There is also much we as Christians have in common and it is good to focus on that rather than always arguing about what we don’t have in common. Unity is strength and Jesus did say that one day there would be one flock and one shepherd.

God bless you my brother in Christ
Cinette

 

[benedictus2]

It is very important that you follow your own conscience. I wish you well

However, it seemed to me that you believe what you want to believe and are not prepared to debate. These forums offer an opportunity for us to get to know people of other faiths. There is also much we as Christians have in common and it is good to focus on that rather than always arguing about what we don’t have in common. Unity is strength and Jesus did say that one day there would be one flock and one shepherd.

God bless you my brother in Christ
Cinette

I think he came here thinking to convert us then realized we’re a tough nut to crack

 

[SteveGC]

I’m afraid that catholics are the hardest to get through to as they believe about the Lord Jesus, but dont realise that he is the ONLY way to heaven and think they have to work their way there.
I live in Northern Ireland, so trust me, I know how hard it is to get them to accept the Gospel and to trust the Lord Jesus Christ alone. They are blinded by religion.
It breaks my heart as I have found the Roman catholics I Know and have met to be very friendly people, but they refuse to listen.

We do hope you don’t leave this forum because you think we are unwilling to listen to you. We certainly will listen to you, but you must also understand that as we listen to you, we recognize from your very first posts that you have succombed to an errant understanding of the actual teachings of The Catholic Church.

What I suggest is that while you’re here, before you attack Catholicism and/or attempt to enlighten us of our error, you spend a good deal of time first exploring the actual truth about what we believe, and what the Church actually teaches. Perhaps you still won’t agree with it, but you may see many things that you once believed about us, which actually are completely opposite of that belief. This then may help you better talk with us about your beliefs, and then we can debate respectfully. You have had a bad initial experience on this thread because your very first posts have been large generalizations and false assumptions about what we believe. You see, we don’t agree with everything you believe either, but atleast we don’t accuse you of believing in something you don’t. We, on the other hand, as Catholics, live daily with these false accusations. And you won’t win any hearts over with that approach.

Please stay, and learn, and discuss

God Bless

 

[SteveGC]

When I look at the pope, I see only a man, not Christ, so much. Like other MEN who have been ordained to minister to all of us! And Mathew 28:19-20, although spoken directly to the disciples, I believe,was directed to us! While we are not all shepherds, we are, as the body of Christ, His representatives on this earth; and as such, should also, “feed His sheep.” The pope is a very influential man, and like all other pastors, priests, he has been anointed to serve as a leader. I would shake his hand, if I ever met him:thumbsup:And I am sure that if you polled most non-catholics, they would probably say that the pope speaks only for the catholic world

Emphasis above is mine.

Could you define for us what you think it means in Christianity to be “ordained”.

Thanks

Also, I think you have to be extremely careful when extracting truth from Scripture about WHO specifically God (in the person of Christ) is communicating with, and intending to directly address. To misunderstand these finer points is the source of MANY errors relating to private interpretation

God Bless

 

[SteveGC]

*Eternaly Secure made this analogy: *

If someone gave you a present and said to you, here is a free gift for you and you take it and thank them and then they say, now you must work for me to pay for it, then how was it free.

This was compared to a more appropriate analogy:

But the analogy does not apply because salvation is not some inanimate object. It is more like God giving you a free ticket to the ball game but you have to get to the ball game first either by walking, driving or taking public transport.

I would encourage anyone who professes faith-alone or OSAS to look at the difference in these analogies, and recognize that the latter one is accurate. The only thing I would add (and I think benedictus would agree) is that the walking, driving or public transport methods are all supplied by the Grace of God, but we must freely partake of these methods to get to “the game”.

 

[SteveGC]

Hi SteveGC,

I must say that I was most impressed with your post and I felt it dealt with the “differences” between us fairly and with integrity.

If this, indeed, is your position then the differences between us are LESS than at first thought. I, too, believe in Free Will and the need to PERSEVERE in the Christian Faith.

I repeat my position, viz: that any professing Christian in whom SIN REIGNS HABITUALLY is not one of Christ’s. Christ will say to them “I never knew you, you workers of iniquity”. Any professing Christian who EXHIBITS A LIFESTYLE GOVERNED BY SIN is not a true believer and will be cast out by Christ.

Your post demonstrates excellent analytical skills, and I am grateful for it. You see, at the end of the day, both of us believe:

1. In the absolute NECESSITY OF GOOD WORKS
2. In the absolute need to PERSEVERE IN THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
3. In the absolute reality of FREE WILL AND HUMAN RESPONSIBILITY.

If any practising Catholic adopts the position you do and lives the Christian Faith in the manner you state, my heart warmly embraces that person as a true Christian; as a true Brother or Sister In the Lord.

This is an OUTSTANDING POST and I have saved it to my computer. I will refer to this time after time again, throughout my lifetime. I think you can understand my position better now. I am neither a Calvinist or an Arminian ; I have no loyalty or admiration for these “human systems”. I simply go as far as scripture goes on a subject, no more and no less.

May God richly bless you, In Christ Craig

Thank you for your kind words, Craig. The only thing I would add here, is that this is not just something I believe, and that I just happen to be Catholic. I believe these things because I am Catholic, for this is what the Catholic Church teaches all of us. Individual Catholics you meet might not believe nor understand these things, but this has no bearing on the fact that this is what our Church teaches…and has always taught. Pretty much all the Catholics you “meet” on these forums understand and profess this teaching also.

Now, mind you, we still don’t agree with Scripture-alone, nor that we can fully be Christians as Christ wants us to be if we are outside of His Church (His true Body). But this can be points of further discussion/debate.

God Bless, and thanks again for your nice reply.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Craig,

I think I really do understand you. But, as you probably guessed, understanding does not necessarily bring agreement…only understanding… If you would be so kind, please respond to this:

Scripture does speak of the CERTAINTY of salvation. It is based on the ACCOMPLISHED REDEMPTION WROUGHT BY CHRIST ON THE CROSS.

In John 5:24 Jesus says these astonishing words, which speak of salvation as a final, irreversible work:

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has ETERNAL LIFE and will not be judged but has CROSSED OVER FROM DEATH TO LIFE.” (Today’s New International Version).

We are on the same page (really! ) when it comes to hearing the word of Christ and believing in those words. The issue is that we are incorporating all of the words of Christ - and simply do not stop at hearing and belief. For example:

Christ spent His 3-year Public Ministry, preaching, teaching, and preparing His Apostles for His upcoming Death and Resurrection. During this time, Christ Heard the words of His Father and Believed in them…and, then He acted on them.

As a sign of Obedience, the Sinless One comes to John the Baptist for baptism. John recognizes the immediate contradiction (a baptism of repentence for the One Who is Sinless) in this arrangement and protests (I thought you’d enjoy that term…) And, what does Christ say and do? Does He say,“Yeah, John, you’re right, sorry to bother you…carry on.” and walks away without the baptism? No! He tells John this is a necessary process and needs to be DONE. And, you guessed it - Christ DOES the will of His Father. (Mark 1:9-11)

There are many other examples of Jesus actually DOING and expecting His disciples to follow Him in these ACTIONS… these WORKS! And, all of this is done with the Grace of God - nothing on our own - we will (through God’s Grace) to want Him (through God’s Grace) and to do those things He has commanded (through God’s Grace). But, we are expected to, “… get with the progam…” and follow Christ in our actions.

God bless

 

[1beleevr]

In response to post#699, let me first say that my understanding of people who are ordained to enter the ministry; is this. They are called by God,led by the Holy Spirit, and consecrated to be in the Lord’s service! And this will be my final post about the pope, because it appears that we are at a standoff, in regards to his significance to the non-catholic world(here, I am speaking just for myself)1) the pope has never been, and will never be my holy father; my Holy Father is the Creator of the universe, and my boss is a Jewish carpenter(sorry about using an old quip)20 there are countless people who are called by God for His service in preaching, teaching, encouraging, etc.,3) my disagreement with the pope’s position, is not derogatory(although sometimes I think it may be inflammatory), it is my opinion! So, with as much respect as I can muster, I believe that the pope is a very intelligent, compassionate, and obviously well read and humble MAN! I would not feel compelled, however, to kiss his ring, if I was ever to meet him! Where did this tradition start? God bless the pope, and all others, who are taking God’s love into the world:thumbsup:

 

[SteveGC]

In response to post#699, let me first say that my understanding of people who are ordained to enter the ministry; is this. They are called by God,led by the Holy Spirit, and consecrated to be in the Lord’s service! And this will be my final post about the pope, because it appears that we are at a standoff, in regards to his significance to the non-catholic world(here, I am speaking just for myself)1) the pope has never been, and will never be my holy father; my Holy Father is the Creator of the universe, and my boss is a Jewish carpenter(sorry about using an old quip)20 there are countless people who are called by God for His service in preaching, teaching, encouraging, etc.,3) my disagreement with the pope’s position, is not derogatory(although sometimes I think it may be inflammatory), it is my opinion! So, with as much respect as I can muster, I believe that the pope is a very intelligent, compassionate, and obviously well read and humble MAN! I would not feel compelled, however, to kiss his ring, if I was ever to meet him! Where did this tradition start? God bless the pope, and all others, who are taking God’s love into the world:thumbsup:

Fair enough. I just wanted you to realize that the Bible reveals that proper ordination comes from the “laying on of hands” by Christ, through the instrument of His Apostles. Humans physically laying hands on humans is what “to be ordained” has always meant. This is synonymous with being “sent” by Christ to teach. We’re all called to preach the gospel, but what we preach is not our own teaching…it is the teaching of the apostles and those they laid hands on, in Christ’s name. So, I apologize if this offends you, but non-Catholic ministers, pastors, youth group leaders, yourself, your devout friends, Catholic laity (like myself)…none of us are ordained, authentically sent, by Christ to teach the truth that is Christ Jesus. This unique gift from the Holy Spirit is theirs, and those they lay hands on. We receive many other gifts of the Holy Spirit (which dwells in us from baptism and through faith), but the gift of authoritative teaching is not one of them.

God Bless

 

[1beleevr]

Hey, benedictus2: What’s up, girl? You mean we finally agreed on something, whoo hoo:thumbsup:Let’s see, that would be about, what 5% of the time? Anyway, I believe that in post#679, you answered the question about sinning after we are saved! Paul, himself said that he couln’t do what he wanted to do, and did the things he didn’t want toAs long as we are wearing flesh, we will be vulnerable to sin! I believe that, because we are saved from the slavery of sin, and because we are constantly being drawn closer to Christ, that we are more aware of sin before we commit it, or quicker to confess(to Him), repent, and thank Him for His forgiveness! Why do you suppose He left this sin nature in us? And when we get to Heaven, how will I know it’s you, will you have a nametag, or just a cloak of righteousness like me:thumbsup:

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bendictus2

This was an excellent response.

It was a pleasure reading your post.

Tom

Hi Craig,

The seeming contradiction only exists when we fail to understand the interplay between grace and faith.

I think I have said this before but all that salvation by grace means is that it is free. We did not merit it. It is purely as John wrote : because God so loved the world.

But the question is how does God effect salvation? Okay so it is free, so Christ died on the cross once to save us. But have you ever asked yourself how his dying brought on salvation?

The protestant understanding of salvation is like this:
God imputes on us Christ’s righteousness so even though deep inside we are still the same miserable, wretched creatures that we are, His righteousness covers all that muck within so when God sees us, He sees that outer covering that is Christ. In short we are a garbage pit that’s be covered with white turf so it looks pleasing to the eye.

If all that is needed is for us to be imputed with Christ’s righteousness why go to the extent of being human? Furthermore, why the need to suffer and die on the cross?

The Catholic understanding is this: The suffering death and resurrection of Christ opened up heaven so to speak so that the graces are made available to us. Justificatiion is not a mere DECLARATION by God that we are righteous but rather that we are actually MADE rigteous.

I think I said in a reply in “To live by faith” that in saving us from the pit Christ requires us to put our hand in His. He could have very well yanked us out but no, He wants us to grab His hand.

This action of grace on our soul makes us righteous.

But what does it mean to actually be righteous?

It means following God’s commandments which in a nutshell boils down to love of God and love of neighbour. LOVE is WORK.

We do not truly love unless we prove it by our deeds. You can tell your wife till you are blue in the face that you love her but that will mean zilch if you do not bring her a rose every now and again, help her with the chores, look after the children, provide for her, take the time to listen to her, etc., etc.

That is why in one of Paul’s most moving letters he says the greatest is LOVE because to love is to participate in Divine life.

When we get to heaven, faith and hope will cease, but love will still be there and love manifestests itself in WORK so long as we are on this side eternity. That is why we have the phrase “labour of love”.

James is so right when he says “I will show you my faith by my works”.

Christ said follow me. The following of Christ involves a dying to self. A carrying of our crosses. All these involve WORK.

Another reason for the seeming contradiction in your mind is I believe due to a lack of a fully developed understanding of every aspect of salvation.

But that requires another post and I am sleepy so I am off to bed.

 

[tqualey]

Good bye, Eternally Secure.

Tom

I will not be back on this forum as it is feeding my spirit with much false doctrine and is grieving the Holy Spirit.
There are many lost souls out there that are willing to listen and I need to go to them.
I have been given a gift of Love and I do love all of you, so much, but we are told to move on if people reject the gospel.
Repent and come out of the apostate catholic church, before it is too late for you.
With sincere love, Repent!

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Then that means that no one here on earth is saved. For your statement to be true, once a person has been baptized or in evangelical parlance 'born again", then not one single one of these people will not have commited a single sin after.

If we are truly, completely and irrevocably regenerated after being saved, then we would no longer sin.

Yet if you read Paul (who himself had the most incredible conversion), this is not the case.

**Paul writes that although Christ lives in him, sin lives in him as well. **He says he does the evil that he does not want to do and does not do the good that he wants to do. **If he is truly regenerated, surely doing the good that he wants to would be a piece of cake so there would be no instances of doing the evil he does not want to do. **Yet he writes that this is not so.

So how do you reconcile these two?

Based on that statement, does it mean that anyone who commits a sin (bad works) is not a true believer and therefore Christ never knew them?

If this is so then none of us are true believers for I doubt very much if after being “saved” as you put it, anyone has remained spotless thereafter.

Hi Benedictus2,

If you read my response to SteveGC you will understand more fully the Doctrine of Salvation that I hold to.

I reject the doctrine of SINLESS PERFECTION after true spiritual regeneration has taken place. The true believer is NEVER absolutely sinless or perfect - in this world, in this life; that reality will occur, however, when true believers are GLORIFIED at the Second Coming of Christ.

May God bless you, In Christ Craig

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

Hi, Craig,

I think I really do understand you. But, as you probably guessed, understanding does not necessarily bring agreement…only understanding… If you would be so kind, please respond to this:

We are on the same page (really! ) when it comes to hearing the word of Christ and believing in those words. The issue is that we are incorporating all of the words of Christ - and simply do not stop at hearing and belief. For example:

Christ spent His 3-year Public Ministry, preaching, teaching, and preparing His Apostles for His upcoming Death and Resurrection. During this time, Christ Heard the words of His Father and Believed in them…and, then He acted on them.

As a sign of Obedience, the Sinless One comes to John the Baptist for baptism. John recognizes the immediate contradiction (a baptism of repentence for the One Who is Sinless) in this arrangement and protests (I thought you’d enjoy that term…) And, what does Christ say and do? Does He say,“Yeah, John, you’re right, sorry to bother you…carry on.” and walks away without the baptism? No! He tells John this is a necessary process and needs to be DONE. And, you guessed it - Christ DOES the will of His Father. (Mark 1:9-11)

There are many other examples of Jesus actually DOING and expecting His disciples to follow Him in these ACTIONS… these WORKS! And, all of this is done with the Grace of God - nothing on our own - we will (through God’s Grace) to want Him (through God’s Grace) and to do those things He has commanded (through God’s Grace). But, we are expected to, “… get with the progam…” and follow Christ in our actions.

God bless

Hi Tom,

An excellent post! Yes, I can understand where you are coming from.

I have no quibble with the fact that true believers - regenerated by the Holy Spirit in the NEW BIRTH - are called by Christ to “join in the action” and follow Christ in LIFESTYLE, CHARACTER AND DISPOSITION.

I have appreciated your analogies, along with SteveGC and Benedictus2 that true believers have to PARTICIPATE in the “ball game of salvation”(you see, I DO read your posts! LOL!). It is just that I believe that a truly REGENERATED BELIEVER will PERSEVERE IN FAITH, LOVE AND GOOD WORKS. I have no problem with the fact - and, indeed, I have always recognised - that the Roman Catholic Church has had many such believers and that they have demonstrated a truly Christian walk and spirituality.

May God bless you, In Christ Craig

 

[joe370]

Eternaly Secure;4965594]Salvation is a free gift and works are important, but only as far as to confirm a persons really is saved.

Agreed!

If someone gave you a present and said to you, here is a free gift for you and you take it and thank them and the they say, now you must work for me to pay for it, then how was it free.

**So, salvation is a free gift, “but only as far as what?” **Can I live a life of greed and selfishness, and still be saved, as long as I embrace Jesus as my Savior? I am genuinely asking; this sure would be a lot easier!

People take a scripture and on it’s own it can seem to mean something that it doesn’t, like loss of salvation. Scripture must be compared with scripture and certainly not with extra biblical writings.

You are so right; as a former Lutheran, I use to do that all of the time, especially John 6.

We should carefully observe that James, like all the inspired writers, believed eternal life was the gracious gift of God. This is made plain in a passage in his first chapter:

James 1:17-18:

*“Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.”
*

Shouldn’t that one passage be compared with scripture and certainly not with extra biblical writings?

New birth is a sovereign act of God. It is His perfect gift which comes down from above; I agree with you!

What about James 2:20 which also, should be compared with other passages? *"…that faith without works is dead, among many others?" *

Do you agree with the following exposition; it’s just my humble opinion?

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” What does this mean: “Faith without works is dead?” Does this mean --in order to be saved, we must to do works? Well let’s find out.

If we back up to verse 14, perhaps we can flesh out the context a bit.

*“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?” *

Martin Luther said that the Book of James was a book of straw [something of little value] --he didn’t like it, because it conflicted with his doctrine of justification by faith alone. But that is only because he, evidently didn’t study it with an open mind, or perhaps he opposed the book, out of spite and contempt for the C.C.! However, my interpretation could be wrong too; perhaps that is why Jesus gave certain people authority to teach!

What is really being said??? What does the Bible teach about salvation? Abraham was justified by works, or was he? Is that what Romans four IS SAYING? "Abraham was justified by what…? “Faith.” Abraham was not justified by works. Romans chapter three says, “No man is justified by works. By the deeds of the law shall…” what? “No flesh be justified,” none!!! There is no way that we can be justified. In Romans 3:28, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.” **Salvation is by faith, not by works. **Galatians chapter three tells us the same thing, that you cannot be justified by works, you cannot be saved by what you do, in terms of deeds. He says, “…they that are of faith,” [Galatians 3:9] -“are blessed with faithful Abraham.” It’s all a matter of faith. The man that is justified, he says in verse 11, IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, AS OPPOSED TO THE LAW: “But no man is justified by the law in the sight of God … The just shall live by faith.” If the Bible, given to all by the Catholic Church, teaches that we are saved by faith, what in the world is James talking about; IS IT IN FACT A BOOK OF STRAW, AS MARTIN LUTHER PROFFERED? Did he have the authority to jettison the book of James?

Can faith save him? James is looking at this from the stand point of evaluation. He is looking at a man who says, “I have faith…” And he appears to be saying: all right, if you have true saving faith then I ought to see some evidence of it; is that a reasonable assessment??? “By their fruits you shall…” what? "…know them.”

He is saying, with a child like simplicity, if your faith is genuine then it’s going to manifest itself. “If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old things are passed away and behold all things become…” what? "…new.” There MUST be a manifestation, ergo he says, what kind of faith do you have my friend? I don’t see any evidence?

continued…

 

[joe370]

For example, he says, “If a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food and one of you who claims to have saving faith says depart in peace be warm and filled.” Just what he needs --Condolence. Hope you feel better, hope you find some food, but you don’t actually give him the things needful to the body; what kind of faith is that? If you or me are really saved, it MUST be a working kind of salvation, that will bear fruit, such as the things you do! That’s all he’s saying; do you agree? So, in verse seventeen, “…so faith, if it doesn’t have works, is dead, is in fact dead, because it’s alone.” It’s a dead faith not a living faith -agreed??? If *“a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works; show me your faith without your works, and I’ll show you my faith by my works.” * James 2

Evidently there are 2 kinds of faith, and James seems to be contrasting these 2 kinds of faith. One kind of faith is the faith that doesn’t have any works -the easy way out, and it is of course, dead faith and the other faith is the faith that produces a kind and loving action, and it is a living faith. One saves and one doesn’t -agreed? Isn’t that what James is saying? “Oh,” but he says “I believe, I believe,” “Yeah,” he says, “The devils believe and they tremble.” As per sacred scripture, It’s not enough to believe, unless that belief results in an act of commitment to Christ, such as yours -a taking up of one’s cross, as you do; it MUST result in a changed life that bears positive fruit; we are the domino’s, dropping one by one, as a consequence of Jesus’ Perfect expiation; we take up our crosses as Jesus did, but always knowing that His cross is the only means of salvation; we are just attempting to live by Jesus’ Perfect example, but of course, we all fall short of that goal, hence the need for Jesus’ Sacrifice on the Cross! Isn’t that the point, James is trying to make???

We are in the very last day’s and scripture is being twisted to fit whatever a person wants it to mean…

Could you please help me out here? Who is doing the twisting? Who has the authority to interpret sacred scripture? I could say one church has the authority, and you could say another church has the authority; we could gather a hundred people, all belonging to different churches, and all of them would adamantly declare that their church is the church of Matthew 18:17. Who would be right; who would be wrong… and all the while positing sola scriptura via private/individual interpretation as the golden rule, not only negating church authority, but violating the teachings of the Holy Bible, as well. Could you help me out here, and resolve this little quandary???

 

[joe370]

Eternaly Secure…
I will not be back on this forum as it is feeding my spirit with much false doctrine and is grieving the Holy Spirit. There are many lost souls out there that are willing to listen and I need to go to them. I have been given a gift of Love and I do love all of you, so much, but we are told to move on if people reject the gospel. Repent and come out of the apostate catholic church, before it is too late for you. With sincere love, Repent!

**Is Calling our church… Jesus’ Body, to which he is the head and savior…the church that Jesus loves very much, as per sacred scripture, apostate – your way of saying that you love us all? I don’t think that is a gift of Love, my friend…

I’m so confused!!! Please help me out here!!! I thought the bible alone via private interpretation was the non-Catholic dogma??? I thought the bible was the non-Catholic’s ONLY authority —not mere men --just the Bible through Christ alone? IF THAT’S THE CASE, WHY WOULD LOST SOULS NEED YOUR HELP???I If the catholic church possess zero authority, then certainly you and I possess zero authority, as well! Is that a reasonable assessment --and by the way, I’m not screaming …I just wish someone, outside the C.C. would answer me! hope… hope…

Wow…calling the C.C. apostate… the only church that can trace her lineage all the way back to the apostles… who were told that Jesus’ established church, would prevail, through every century, until Jesus’ return, regardless of the chaff; are you certain you want to call the C.C. apostate? It certainly seems a bit harsh! Phew…

MATTHEW 7:1-5: "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged…I recall these words every time I am about to say something, I know I will regret… **

 

[Craig_Kennedy]

For example, he says, “If a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food and one of you who claims to have saving faith says depart in peace be warm and filled.” Just what he needs --Condolence. Hope you feel better, hope you find some food, but you don’t actually give him the things needful to the body; what kind of faith is that? If you or me are really saved, it MUST be a working kind of salvation, that will bear fruit, such as the things you do! That’s all he’s saying; do you agree? So, in verse seventeen, “…so faith, if it doesn’t have works, is dead, is in fact dead, because it’s alone.” It’s a dead faith not a living faith -agreed??? If *“a man may say, thou hast faith, and I have works; show me your faith without your works, and I’ll show you my faith by my works.” * James 2

Evidently there are 2 kinds of faith, and James seems to be contrasting these 2 kinds of faith. One kind of faith is the faith that doesn’t have any works -the easy way out, and it is of course, dead faith and the other faith is the faith that produces a kind and loving action, and it is a living faith. One saves and one doesn’t -agreed? Isn’t that what James is saying? “Oh,” but he says “I believe, I believe,” “Yeah,” he says, “The devils believe and they tremble.” As per sacred scripture, It’s not enough to believe, unless that belief results in an act of commitment to Christ, such as yours -a taking up of one’s cross, as you do; it MUST result in a changed life that bears positive fruit; we are the domino’s, dropping one by one, as a consequence of Jesus’ Perfect expiation; we take up our crosses as Jesus did, but always knowing that His cross is the only means of salvation; we are just attempting to live by Jesus’ Perfect example, but of course, we all fall short of that goal, hence the need for Jesus’ Sacrifice on the Cross! Isn’t that the point, James is trying to make???

We are in the very last day’s and scripture is being twisted to fit whatever a person wants it to mean…

Could you please help me out here? Who is doing the twisting? Who has the authority to interpret sacred scripture? I could say one church has the authority, and you could say another church has the authority; we could gather a hundred people, all belonging to different churches, and all of them would adamantly declare that their church is the church of Matthew 18:17. Who would be right; who would be wrong… and all the while positing sola scriptura via private/individual interpretation as the golden rule, not only negating church authority, but violating the teachings of the Holy Bible, as well. Could you help me out here, and resolve this little quandary???

Hi Joe370,

I thoroughly enjoyed your posts.

You do, indeed, superbly - I think - affirm very clearly that:

1. True believers are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, without works.
2. True believers SURELY MANIFEST GOOD WORKS, as an EXPRESSION of the reality of their saving faith.

This has been my viewpoint all along.

On these points we are in substantial agreement. My own belief in the PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS upholds these truths and, in no way, mitigates against them.

I can recognise that you DO, in fact, uphold that Salvation is by God’s grace and is not “earned” or “merited” in any way by our Good Works.

May God bless you, In Christ Craig

 

[joe370]

Hi Joe370,

I thoroughly enjoyed your posts.

You do, indeed, superbly - I think - affirm very clearly that:

1. True believers are JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, without works.
2. True believers SURELY MANIFEST GOOD WORKS, as an EXPRESSION of the reality of their saving faith.

This has been my viewpoint all along.

On these points we are in substantial agreement. My own belief in the PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS upholds these truths and, in no way, mitigates against them.

I can recognise that you DO, in fact, uphold that Salvation is by God’s grace and is not “earned” or “merited” in any way by our Good Works.

May God bless you, In Christ Craig

Thank you my friend! However, it’s not just me; every Christian belonging to the C.C. share our beliefs, and I don’t understand why it’s such a bone of contention. Let us always UNITE as brothers and sisters in Christ, and graciously agree to disagree, if we can’t; anything else simply leads to hurtful words, e.g. Eternaly Secure calling the C.C. apostate; now he is banned; that was certainly a fruitless act!

God bless my friend…

 

[joe370]

Fair enough. I just wanted you to realize that the Bible reveals that proper ordination comes from the “laying on of hands” by Christ, through the instrument of His Apostles. Humans physically laying hands on humans is what “to be ordained” has always meant. This is synonymous with being “sent” by Christ to teach. We’re all called to preach the gospel, but what we preach is not our own teaching…it is the teaching of the apostles and those they laid hands on, in Christ’s name. So, I apologize if this offends you, but non-Catholic ministers, pastors, youth group leaders, yourself, your devout friends, Catholic laity (like myself)…none of us are ordained, authentically sent, by Christ to teach the truth that is Christ Jesus. This unique gift from the Holy Spirit is theirs, and those they lay hands on. We receive many other gifts of the Holy Spirit (which dwells in us from baptism and through faith), but the gift of authoritative teaching is not one of them.

Well said Steve! This was how it was done for 1500 years, in an unbroken line of ministerial magisters; were they doing it wrong for 1500 years? Yikes…When these men broke away from Jesus’ one established church circa 33 AD, Jesus’ Mystical Body to which He is the Head AND Savior, did Jesus abandon His church, established on Pentecost…did He stop being the Savior of His one Church, to which He was/is for 1500 years; did the Holy Spirit stop guiding the one bride of Christ? Did the pillar and foundation of truth, suddenly transfer to the Holy Bible? Is the bible now the pillar and foundation of truth? If so, why doesn’t the Bible reflect this change? If not, then shouldn’t people, as per Matthew 18:17, be taking disputes to their respective churches? Does the Living God, as per scripture, no longer reside in the one church established By Christ, 2000 years ago?

When these men broke away, forming new churches, 1500 years removed from Pentecost, with new self proclaimed magisters, and a brand new charter…a brand new set of doctrines, e.g. sola scriptura, not handed down to them by the Apostles, did they violate the decrees of sacred scripture, which clearly state that Jesus’ established church, circa 33 AD, must be one:

Jn 10:16; – there shall be one fold and one shepherd
Eph 4:3-6; – one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father
Rom 16:17; – avoid those who create dissensions
1 Cor 1:10; – I urge that there be no divisions among you
Phil 2:2; – be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing

Rom 15:5; – God grant you to think in harmony with one another
Jn 17:17-23; – I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17: 23; – that they may be brought to perfection as one
1 Cor 12:13; – in one spirit we were baptized into one body
Rom 12:5; – we, though many, are one body in Christ
Eph 4:4; – one body, one Spirit, called to one hope
Col 3:15; – the peace into which you were called in one body

Ironically, if not for Martin Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and the reformers that followed in their wake, fledgling protestant churches, E.G. non-denominational churches {never to impugn the work of those church magisters; each church has a magisterium, which is latin for teaching authority} – like the one to which my sister belongs, wouldn’t even exist today; if Jesus fervently prayed that His established church circa 33 AD, be one as He and His Father are one, in John 17, and the C.C. is still One, with the same charter and the same doctrines handed down to her, from the Apostles --then doesn’t this oneness and unity, maintained by the C.C. for 2000 years, bode well for the C.C., or is the biblical doctrine of unity and oneness, again maintained by the C.C., and to a degree, the E.O.C., just an inconsequential side effect, with Jesus Christ as the author and architect of said side effect?