What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[Christine2009]

Why does a person have to be Catholic?
Why not a follower of Jesus Christ aka Christian.
Yes Jesus Christ did tell Peter,“Upon this rock I will build my church.”
But many changes have been made by popes since then
that Peter may or may not have approved of.
Praying the Rosary with so much attention given to Mary for one.
I think Peter would say,“Why pray,“Holy Mary Mother of God,pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” when Jesus is the one who died for our sins.”
Anyway to answer the basic question,my answer would have to be the Catholic church would have to put Jesus first above all.

 

[Cinette]

Why does a person have to be Catholic?
Why not a follower of Jesus Christ aka Christian.
Yes Jesus Christ did tell Peter,“Upon this rock I will build my church.”
But many changes have been made by popes since then
that Peter may or may not have approved of.You must read the passage where Jesus founded His Church on Peter and you will see Jesus said that he would be with us always and that the H Spirit would guide us into all truth. Any “changes” made by Popes had nothing to do with the core beliefs and theology/doctrine of the CC The Church has remained constant.
Praying the Rosary with so much attention given to Mary for one.

Here are some of the meditations we make during the Rosary:

The Announciation
The Visitation
The birth of Jesus
The Presentation of Jesus in the Temple
Finding Jesus in the Temple after he was missing for 3 days

Jesus is baptised in the river Jordan
Jesus turned water into wine
The Kingdom of Heaven
The Transfiguration
The Eucharist

The Resurrection
The Ascension
The Descent of the H Spirit - Pentecost
The Assumption
Mary - Queen of Heaven

The Agony of Jesus in the Garden
The Scourging of Jesus at the Pillar
Jesus is Crowned with Thorns
Jesus carries his Cross to Calvery
Jesus dies on the Cross

Does that look like we are more concentrated on Mary???

I think Peter would say,"Why pray,“Holy Mary Mother of God,pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” when Jesus is the one who died for our sins."When you ask your friends to pray for you does that mean it is them who died for our sins??
Anyway to answer the basic question,my answer would have to be the Catholic church would have to put Jesus first above all.Jesus is above all else. It is Jesus we receive in the Eucharist (the source and summit of our Faith) and it is Jesus in the Tabernacle.

I am sitting here wrapped in a bath towel and my hair wet and your questions require a big answer but I could not resist making come comments.

See embedded above.

Cheers
Cinette

 

[bobzills]

…,“Why pray,“Holy Mary Mother of God,pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” when Jesus is the one who died for our sins.”
.

Of all the creatures in heaven, Mary is the closest to God, since she is the Mother of God. As the Queen of Heaven, she cares and intercedes for her children on earth by making requests of her Son. The Incarnation of the Son of God, being necessary for our salvation, was brought about to a large extent because Mary agreed to the request asked of her: “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.” (Luke 1:38). In the Nicene creed, Catholics confess our belief in the Communion of Saints, and of all the Saints, the intercessionary prayers of Mary, the Mother of God, are the most powerful and effective.

 

[guanophore]

• Jesus ascending to the right hand of the Father - Jesus being glorified and the Spirit being poured upon the Apostles - the Apostles being empowered - repentance, belief, baptism - working out one’s salvation - eat the flesh and drink the blood - being made new when Christ returns.
  I don’t agree with this because according to the Bible this is not correct:
  We need to repent and believe to receive Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour (be born again). He is the only way and we cannot work out our salvation.

Where in your Bible does it say that you need to “receive Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior”?

If we cannot “work out our salvation” what does this scripture mean?

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" Phil 2:12-13

This is a gift and we cannot earn this salvation. Jesus Christ then governs our lives and we cannot be snatched from His hand. Once we are saved we have the assurance of entering into His kingdom and His glorious presence after we pass away. This is a glorious gift that we have through the atonement of our sins through Jesus Christ. We cannot enter heaven when we are sinful. Jesus Christ however died for our sins once and for all and that means that if we come unto Him we will be saved.

Do you think that the Catholic Church teaches something different?

Do you realize that the New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics, and that everything in it is Catholic? That is why there is no contradiction between what the Church teaches, and what is written there. All of it was produced out of Catholic Teaching.

There are no works that we can do to gain entry into heaven. Once we are saved however works will follow as we are being led by the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe the Catholic Church teaches differently?

Sure they are nice and inspiring, but so are many other books. The apocrypha however are books that are not part of Scripture. Maccabees for example is a simple history book and surely nice to read but so are other books. Even the Jewish tradition does not include these books into their scripture. This clearly sets the canonical books apart from the apocrypha.

How do you explain that Jesus and the Apostles considered them canonical?

Why did Jesus confrim the contents of the books of Maccabees?

Do you have any idea how the canon was formed?

Why would you accept a canon formed by the Jews who rejected Christ above that used by the Apostles trained by Him?

Are you aware how much care is taken to preserve the word of the Torah?

The same care that was taken to preserve the Sacred Tradition that was committed by Jesus to the Church.

Mary was a sinner and in need for a Saviour herself. She expresses this clearly in the Magnificat.

Actually, this is only half true. Mary praises God for His salvation of her. She nowhere identifies herself as a sinner.

Mary was blessed by the Lord just as all of His children are today. We are blessed and Mary clearly states that too.

Actually, she says she is blessed among women. Mary was blessed above and beyond all women, because she was found worthy to bear the Son of God in her womb.

Being used by the Lord in a role so prominent that she could raise the one that would become the Saviour of the world is a blessing indeed. She is however a saint among many believers till today. She is in heaven among many many others and she does have a place there. She can however not answer any prayers.

Where does it say in your Bible that Mary cannot answer prayers?

As much as I cannot ask a relative who has passed away to intercede for me I cannot ask Mary.

It is your loss.

You might want to consider not limiting the manner in which God works through His people.

We don’t even need to do so. Jesus himself said “Come unto me” and we should do so because He alone is the way to the Father. Mary can’t help us and elevating her into such a position is more than questionable.

If this were the case, then God would not bother to work through any people to accomplish anything! On the contrary, the whole history of humanity with God is described by God choosing, preparing, and working through people to accomplish His purposes. You statement is akin to the heart saying to the womb “I have no need of you”.

 

[guanophore]

Excluding women from the clergy

The Church cannot do anything that has not been authorized by Christ. If Jesus wanted female apostles, He would have chosen them, or He would have revealed to the Apostles to do so after His ascention.

Women are actually more important than some tend to admit. Looking at 2 John 1:1 for example:
"The elder unto the elect lady and her children,
The letter is written to the elect lady.
2 John is addressed to a lady in such a position. John addresses her as the chosen lord, or leader and it is obvious further on that she is in charge of a church that meets in her house. He assigns her responsibility for keeping the false apostle/prophets/teachers out of her house church. She is the pastor/leader of the church.

No. The letter is addressed to the Church, the Bride of Christ. There were no female bishops or presbyters. Nice word study, though.

Other female leaders are:
Deborah in Judges 4:4 - “And Deborah, a prophetess, she judged Israel at that time.”
Lydia in Acts 16:14-15 -
Phebe in Romans 16:1 - from the Greek διάκονος (diakonos) which is subsequently translated as minister or servant. She was a a deacon. One who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use.)

You are correct that there have been, are now, and will always be important female leaders in the Church. Diakonos is used to describe a variety of roles. Women are not ordained as deacons, and never have been.

Chloe in 1 Corinthians 1:11 -
Scripture also clarifies that women will prophecy: Acts 2:17-18 -
1 Corinthians 11:5 - “But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth…”

Ordination is not required for exercise of the spiritual gifts.

Forced celibacy of the clergy
The word “priest” cannot be found in connection with Christian offices in the Bible. Others however are clearly stated:

There are a couple errors here. One is that celibacy is not, and cannot, be “forced” upon anyone. Jesus and Paul are clear that celibacy is a gift that is to be “received” by those who are able to receive it. In the Latin Rite, the Church chooses to call to the priesthood those who have been given the gift of celibacy. However, this is a discipline, and could be changed.

Secondly, the word “priest” is a Latinization of the Gk. word “presbyter”. It is clear that the duties and role of the presbyter in scripture are those of what are today called “priests”.

While I was at it I continued reading a little further:
1 Timothy 4:1-5 “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.”

I am not sure why you included this, but for the record, I will state that the Church does not forbid marriage, or command anyone to abstain from meats.

The church as the Church of Christ instead of realizing that the Church are truly all Christians that are saved and atoned for by the blood of Christ.

Not sure why you included this either. This is what the Catholic Church teaches.

The pope is surely not my spiritual father…
Matthew 23:9 - “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”

Well, he is your spiritual father because he was given that appointment by Christ. You can reject him, but that does not change his role given by God. There is only One Shepherd, and One Flock. Jesus appointed Peter to feed and care for His sheep. Peter passed this responsibility on to his successor.

You have misunderstood the meaning of Jesus’ teaching on “father”.

Not accepting other Christian churches are equally valid and right

There is only One Church. All who are members of His One Body are members of His One Church.

declaring that somebody who was raised in a totally different religion can obtain salvation if he was truly seeking after God… (Jesus said “I AM THE WAY” and He meant it)

The Catholic Church only declares what God has revealed. One of these revelations is that people can be saved who have never heard of Christ. They are still saved BY Christ, though they may not recognize Him for who He is until they get there.

If the Catholic church is necessary to escape hell and reach heaven, would not God have clearly stated it in His Word… at least once? Why would Jesus repeatedly lie by saying that salvation is available through faith in Him?

It most certainly is so stated, many places, many ways. Jesus identifies Himself completly with His Bride,the Church. They are One.

 Not opposing the evolution theory

The duty of the Church is to preach the Gospel, not to debate matters of scientific theory.

 Traditions as equally important as God's Word in the Bible

Mark 7:8 - “For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.”

It seems that you have not distinguished between the traditions of men,and the Sacred traditions given by God.

 

[guanophore]

Not acknowledging that salvation is only by the pure grace of God

It seems that you really have no idea what the Catholic Church believes and teaches on this.

The Catholic church teaches that one has to be a member to obtain salvation (see above) and she also teaches that one has to do good works to be saved:

Yes, because we believe that there is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved, and that everyone who is a member of Christ is therefore a member of His Body, the Church.

Jesus taught that those who abide in Him will produce good fruit. If a person is not abiding in Him, then they will not be saved. Saved persons produce good works. If they do not, then they are not saved. I am surprised you would disagree with this.

The Bible however teaches us that we are saved by grace alone…

No. The Bible does not “teach”. Teaching requires the ability to take responsibility, and is therefore the purview of persons, not books, however Holy. Further, grace is never “alone”. It works through faith, and it produces deeds that befit repentance.

Ephesians 2:8-9 -

Consider reading on to v. 10, where you will see why works are not separated from the faith through which we are saved by grace. A saved person does the works that God has prepared for them to do.

Titus 3:5 -

Romans 3:28 -
Galatians 3:8 -
We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

This is what you have been taught to believe. It is a theology invented by Calvin during the Reformation. It is not consistent with what the Apostles taught.

Not acknowledging the absolute inerrant Word of God as manifested in the Bible

I will need for you to show me something Catholic that supports this baseless assertion. If you cannot do so, then you really should not make statements like this.

Why would the Church have to interpret God's Word for me then? It's God's Word and it is inerrant... Why shouldn't I read it myself?

Of course you should read it yourself! However, the Holy Writings are not meant to be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced them. When they are, all kinds of errors result.

"The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him." Pg. 30, #100

The Church interprets things in their own form and fashion and declares some things to be literally right and others to be in need of interpretation. If the Bible is the inerrant Word of God it is true from cover to cover including the creation, Moses leading the people through the sea and Jesus walking on water.

The problem is not the inerrant Word of God, but the fallible minds and hearts of those who are reading and interpreting it.

One account after the other was given to me as figurative when I was in religious education classes at school. How can the Word of God be inerrant if it is subjected to the interpretation of man?

I think you have just identified the need for an infallible interpreter!

You are right in one point: I would not return to the Catholic church. This is a matter of importance to me as I can and will not choose the Church instead of God.

you are suffering under some errant notion that there is a separation between the Church and God that does not, infact, exist anywhere except in your mind.

At some point in time I was actually thinking about it… My reasoning was the following: In what direction does the Church lead me and in what direction does the Word of God lead me? Had it been the same direction there wouldn’t have been a problem for me, but it wasn’t the same direction and so there is a problem. I cannot serve God and a Church that does not line up with Him. I cannot serve two masters as I would love the one and hate the other. Therefore I cannot return to the Catholic Church.

In Him,
Janet

Perhaps you will at least be willing to come to understand that many of the things you have been given to understand are not accurate?

Thank you for participating, Janet. It is clear that you have put a lot of time and effort into this.

 

[guanophore]

Why does a person have to be Catholic?
Why not a follower of Jesus Christ aka Christian.

That is what a Catholic is…a follower of Jesus Christ, a Christian.

Yes Jesus Christ did tell Peter,“Upon this rock I will build my church.”
But many changes have been made by popes since then
that Peter may or may not have approved of.

I can assure you that Popes have done many things of which Peter does not approve.

Praying the Rosary with so much attention given to Mary for one.

The Rosary is a pious devotion of the Latin Rite that is not part of the Apostolic Divine Deposit of faith. It is a spiritual practice, and not a doctrine. If a different form of prayer commends itself to you, then this should not be an impediment.

I think Peter would say,“Why pray,“Holy Mary Mother of God,pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” when Jesus is the one who died for our sins.”

Mary is not separated from Christ. She stands with Him at the foot of the cross, ready to receive all whom He gives her as sons and daughters.

Anyway to answer the basic question,my answer would have to be the Catholic church would have to put Jesus first above all.

If the Rosary and devotion to Mary are the best examples you can give that this does not happen, you better run down and enroll in RCIA today!

 

[1beleevr]

Benedictus2: Greetings in the Name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ; from the ignorant liar! Whoo, hoo, I guess I should consider it an honor to labeled as such by a catholicBut, because I am accepted by God, I can be rejected by man(or woman, as the case may be). I had to chuckle, when I read the dialogue between yourself and guanophore Then I prayed about it(but not to or through Mary), before I put my response together! It’s at times like this, that I thank Jesus for His peace, because the tendency and temptation to be in the flesh, and hurl insults, is always a present danger.I have read enough posts in this thread and others about truth, in fact some even asking if my pastor teaches the truth. Well, let’s see, if Jesus is the TRUTH, and our congregation is following, and seeking Him, then yes, our pastor is teaching the TRUTH! Free will, something given to us by God, is what leads people to a church, away from a church, or to no church at all! And, personally, I believe that if a mortal man tells anyone that they’re not saved, or thir salvation isn’t secure; that person is steeped in blasphemy, as God is the ONLY one who knows what’s in your heart,aside from you! And furthermore, no one,not even the pope, has the authority, although some have the audacity, to exclude(or call them separated from the Bride of Christ! I may be separated from the catholic church, but I am totally connected to my God, through a personal relationship with Jesus! And the more I think about it, maybe I would like the catholic church to add something to their teachings, rather than drop something(like they really would). I’d like to see them out in the streets, spreading the good word, or in acity park, in a not-so nice neighborhood, praying with strangers, and passing out food boxes(Matthew 28:19-20,25:31-46) It appears that, at least on the surface, that anyone who disagrees with the catholic position on any thing is called hateful, deluded,ignorant or a liar! We all need to work on getting tose planks out of our eyes! Two questions for you, benedictus2:1) are you now, or have you ever been a nun?2) In post#554, when talking about my former fiance, who by the way, passed away tragically 3 years ago,either you are dyslexic, or I am; because, if you read it, one could believe that you are saying that when she left the catholic church, for a non denominational one, she traded up!:thumbsup:And because of her strong faith, I believe she is absent the body, and present with the Lord!

 

[BareKnuckler]

If I could pick 1 thing, it would be the teaching that the RCC is perfect, but since I am no longer a Christian, it would have to change so much, it wouldn’t live to its actual name if I wanted that much to change.

 

[1beleevr]

Hi there, guanophore! My goodness, it’s a wonder you don’t have writer’s cramp, or carpal tunnel syndrome! You’ve been busy; throwing posts here and there! I read with interest your dialogue with, or response to benedictus2, and since I don’t remember ever corresponding with you, well here goes! Religion is defined as:Scrupulous conformity to an institutionalized system of attitudes, beliefs, and practices; constraining or tying back! And I don’t believe that Paul, in Acts 26, was extolling religion as much as celebrating freedom from it! Religion, finds its roots in legalism(law), whereas Christianity is based on love and grace, through faith:thumbsup:I love Galatians, where in chapter 3, verse 23, Paul writes:“But before faith came, we were kept under the law(ten commandments)shut up unto the faith, which should afterwards be revealed.” And Galations 3:28,"There is neither Jew nor Greek,there is neither bond nor free,there is neither male or female, for ye are all ONE in Christ Jesus! Paul really nails it, when he speaks about the law, and grace! Look at Galations 5:4;"Christ has become of no effect unto you, who are justified by the law. You are fallen from grace! I wholeheartedly believe in the Ten Commandments, and know that even today, that Jesus is still the ONLY one who has kept all ten, from birth to death! While we are wearing flesh, we cannot do it! Have you ever lied; I have, how about using the Lord’s name in vain, guilty as charged! As for the poe, sorry to disagree with you, but he is not my holy father, spiritual leader, or anything, but a man anointed to lead a religious sect! And shaking hands is also a cultural show of courtesy! If the law could save us, we wouldn’t need Jesus:thumbsup:

 

[joe370]

Abolition of the following:

Veneration of the saints, especially Mary

So you don’t honor and respect the saints and especially the mother God, who are dwelling with Christ, in Heaven?

Praying to saints
To quote the Catechism:
“By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the ‘Mother of Mercy,’ the All-Holy One… May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.” Pg. 644, #2677

If Jesus is your spiritual brother as per scripture, and Mary is Jesus’ mother, then the blessed Mary is your spiritual mother --right, or is Jesus not your brother?

From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of `Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs…” Pg. 253, #971

If this was believed from the most ancient of times, why don’t you believe it? You failed to mention:

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 “No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.”

“The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom, especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives… They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.” Pg. 645, #2683 (See also Pg. 249, #956)

Will you pray for me my friend, if I ask??? If so, then why can’t saints…why can’t the mother of God pray for me, if I ask? Are you closer to Christ, than Mary is; are your prayers more efficacious than the prayers of Jesus’ mother? If intercessory prayer on earth is a good thing, then perhaps it’s a good thing in heaven; what do ya think? Is that a fair assessment?

It is praying to the saints. We should not try to be like the Saints, but to be like Jesus Christ. It is Him whom we should honor, not the ones who act according to His Word (if they do). We should cast our burdens on the Lord (Psalm 55:22), call upon Him (Psalm 145:18 ) and make our requests known to Him (Philippians 4:6 ).

So we can’t honor and attempt to emulate both, while worshiping Chirst ALONE? really??? Catholics DO cast their burdens on the Lord (Psalm 55:22), call upon Him (Psalm 145:18 ) and make their requests known to Him, as you do; no one is praying or worshiping anyone but God; we ask people on earth to pray for us; we ask people with God to pray for us; don’t you??? Does our blessed Mother Mary, and of course, all the saints in heaven, that continue to make-up Jesus’ One Mystical Body, have to walk in faith, as we do, or, as St.Paul says,* “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face…"* --**do they get to know Him fully? **If Jesus’ Mystical Body is One in Heaven, shouldn’t His Mystical Body on earth be One, as well? Thy Kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven -right??? His earthly Kingdom should emulate His Heavenly Kingdom, where all the saints reside? In the book Revelations, chapter five and eight, we have the image of 24 elders [presbyters] --offering up bowls of incense, “ which are the prayers of the Saints.” The 24 elders represent the Old and New Testament Church. If the prayer of a righteous man availeth much…how much more the prayers of just men/woman made perfect, who encompass us as a cloud of witnesses -in heaven. They are not dead, they are alive in Christ Jesus and nothing can separate them from us, even though we are temporarily separated from them! This is what Communion of Saints means in the Nicene Creed.

If one goes to the catacombs, one will see the inscriptions…right from the beginning, the first Christians prayed to the Saints and for the dead.

1. Current definition of “saint” as every member of the true church is a saint already and we are justified through Him… Paul talks to and about the members of the churches as saints.

Every catholic agrees with you my friend!!!

“By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors.” Pg. 219, #828
There are no official saints or unofficial saints. We are all saints…

 

[joe370]

So, should you solemnly proclaim that you have practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God’s grace, on a par with St. Paul, and the rest of the apostles??? We honor people in all walks of life for uncommon valor, so why not with the church built by GOD? Did you know that you are a priest, just as Jesus is the High Priest? Does one supplant the other? If not then perhaps calling these honored and respected people of the church --saints, doesn’t supplant the sainthood of us all; is that a reasonable assessment?

Romans 1:7 - “To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
(See also Acts 9:13; 9:32; 9:41; 26:10; Romans 8:27; 12:13; 15:25; 15:26; 15:31; 16:2; 16:15; 1 Corinthians 6:1, 2 Corinthians 1:1, Ephesians 1:1, Ephesians 3:8, Ephesians 4:11-12, Jude 1:14, plus dozens of other New Testament references.)
We are saints and we are sanctified in Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:2a “Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints”

All Christians belonging to the C.C. agree with you and the bible, given to you by the C.C.!!!

1. Transubstantiation…
   Well I do go there… Let’s see…
   John 6:53-54 - “Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
   However if you read the entire passage in context, the meaning becomes clear. Right before making that statement, Jesus said the following in John 6:33-35 - “… For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”

If this is so, WHY DID THE GRUMBLERS WALK AWAY, SAYING THIS TEACHING IS TOO TOUGH; WHY DID THE APOSTLES BELIEVE JESUS, when He said, 7 times, you must eat…you must drink…??? The grumblers believed He was talking in a literal sense…the apostles believed that He was talking literally…Jesus’ established church since her inception on Pentecost, believed, as does His church today!!! Why don’t you believe my friend? Did the church guided by the H.S. GET IT WRONG FROM THE OUTSET???

This teaching is consistent with the rest of Scripture

THERE IS ONLY ONE SCRIPTURAL MESSAGE IN JOHN 6: Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. This is consistent with what the 4 gospels tell us: this IS my body…this is my blood; why didn’t Jesus just clear it all up and say: this is a symbol of my body…this is a symbol of my blood?

Eternal life comes through believing in Jesus Christ, not eating His body.

NOT ACCORDING TO YOUR BIBLE!!! Both are necessary!!!

The Lord goes on to further clarify in John 6:40 - “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life…”

Yup, if you believeth on him, and if you eat His flesh and drink His blood, you will have everlasting life!!!

Again, Jesus points out that eternal life comes through believing in Him.

Agreed! Do you believe Him?

When the Lord’s disciples murmured at His words, Jesus explained (John 6:63):
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”

Yet** they still WALKED AWAY**; What’s up with that my friend? Does Jesus’ flesh profit nothing, or is He talking about your flesh…my flesh?

1. Adoration of the eucharist (blasphemy) instead of focusing on the Word of God
   It is good to hear that your husband is doing better now. This does not change however that the veneration of a mere object continues to be blasphemous.

Calling Jesus’ flesh and blood a mere object; Wow…you better be right vis-a-vis your claims!!! The church for the first 300 years adored the Eucharist, as Jesus’ flesh and blood; were they wrong to do that; was His church wrong for doing this for 1600 years, until the reformation? Was Martin Luther wrong??? Were they all wrong…**were they all guilty of blasphemy? Really!!! **Again, I hope you are right, for the sake of your soul? If they were wrong, right from the word go, on Pentecost, I would not be a Christian today. Jesus said: the H.S. is guiding and teaching My established church in perpetuity…I am the Head and Savior of My established church…the gates of hell will not defeat my church…I love my church! Do you really believe that the Holy Spirit taught and guided the brothers and sisters in Christ to embrace blasphemous doctrines, for the first 40 years of Christianity???

---

Joe370…

 

[1beleevr]

I for one, am not in the camp, which says that catholics should drop praying through Mary and the saints That is your prerogative, and it is ours not to! Mary was a major part of the plan of salvation; that is a given, but given her earthly(complete with flesh), she was born into a sinful world(Romans 5:12, 3:23) She called Jesus her Saviour! And because of the above writings of Paul, it means that she also could not have been the product of an immaculate conception! The entire bloodline would have to be sinless, because one hiccup and the sin is passed on! So exalt her name, and lift her up; and believe it or don’t, many non-catholics hold Mary in very high esteem, just not like the catholics

 

[joe370]

Hey 1beleevr, how’s it going…

You are a smart and slow to anger; I find that very commendable! I was wondering if you could answer just one question, if you don’t mind: Which church** in the world today** existed when Jesus said, the gates of hell will not defeat my church…when Jesus said the Holy Spirit will guide my church "forever…"when Jesus said, take it to the church? And lets assume, it’s not either the C.C. or the E.O.C. for now; let’s pretend for the moment that those churches failed, as almost all non-Catholics believe; She, as the bride of Christ MUST still be here in the world today, as per Sacred Scripture -Right!!! And I do believe Jesus’ established church circa 33 AD is invisible, but only in the sense that it’s not a building per se; Jesus’ established church, built on the apostles is an assembly of brothers and sisters in Christ, that are One and United, avoiding division and dissension…that are one as the Son is one with the Father; Just one Body and One Spirit:

I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, striving* to preserve the unity of the spirit** through the bond of peace:** one body and one Spirit, **as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. *Ephesians 4

How many churches…how many Bodies, to which Jesus is the Head and Savior, did Jesus Christ build, according to the bible? If the H.S. is the Spirit of Truth, how many truths can there be vis-a-vis any one doctrine? I can take it to a hundred non-Catholic churches, and they all teach something different, on some level They can’t all be right --can they? Is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth teaching one truth vis-a-vis any one doctrine…vis-a-vis the 100’s of different commands found in the Holy Bible, or is He teaching disparate and unique truths to each insular church? You know what would be really cool; if I could visit all the protestant churches, the world over, and see a big logo on top of these churches that said: welcome to the Protestant church, just as you do in the catholic church; it doesn’t have to be the P.C.; IT COULD BE WHAT EVER… and all those churches were universally one and united, when it came to faith and morals…when it came to their doctrinal charter! That is number 1 on my wish list!!! Anyway…hope to hear from you…

God bless my friend!!!

 

[joe370]

I for one, am not in the camp, which says that catholics should drop praying through Mary and the saints That is your prerogative, and it is ours not to! Mary was a major part of the plan of salvation; that is a given, but given her earthly(complete with flesh), she was born into a sinful world(Romans 5:12, 3:23) She called Jesus her Saviour! And because of the above writings of Paul, it means that she also could not have been the product of an immaculate conception! The entire bloodline would have to be sinless, because one hiccup and the sin is passed on! So exalt her name, and lift her up; and believe it or don’t, many non-catholics hold Mary in very high esteem, just not like the catholics

Amen brother…

I certainly respect your opinion, and am glad to hear you say: “I for one, am not in the camp, which says that catholics should drop praying through Mary and the saints.”

Just one thing though; do you really believe that God became one with sinful flesh? Let’s not forget that God had the “blessed” Mother May’s blood coursing through Him for 9 months? God lived because Mary fed Him, via her bodily nutrients! I personally just can’t accept that, but like you said: “That is your prerogative, and it is ours not to!” When we, if we go to heaven, can we become one with God, Who abhors sin, if we still have the stain of sin in our souls, if not, why would God become One with sinful flesh, here on earth, if He abhors sin; sin was the very reason why God abandoned the human civilization -Agreed?

You said:

And because of the above writings of Paul, it means that she also could not have been the product of an immaculate conception! The entire bloodline would have to be sinless, because one hiccup and the sin is passed on! So exalt her name, and lift her up; and believe it or don’t, many non-catholics hold Mary in very high esteem, just not like the catholics.

Could God, if He wanted to, save Mary, the mother of God, at her conception? Is this an impossibility for GOD??? Why was the H.S. necessary; why didn’t Joseph qualify as a father for our Lord? Logically, for me anyway, if we must be made immaculate to be one with God, in His heavenly Home, then Mary had to be Immaculate to be one with Jesus; Gods home was Mary for 9 months! That is so mind-blowing when you really think about!!!

Are all things possible for God? “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Mark 9:29

Look forward to your responses…

God bless…

 

[joe370]

1beleevr, you said to Benedictus2:

Free will, something given to us by God, is what leads people to a church, away from a church, or to no church at all!

Free will is one God’s greatest gift to mankind; amen to that…

And, personally, I believe that if a mortal man tells anyone that they’re not saved, or thir salvation isn’t secure; that person is steeped in blasphemy, as God is the ONLY one who knows what’s in your heart,aside from you!

If that’s the case, did Jesus lie, when He said take it to the church? The apostles were certainly told by Jesus: the sins you forgive are forgiven, the sins you remit… and they were mere sinful and fallible men -right?

And furthermore, no one,not even the pope, has the authority, although some have the audacity, to exclude(or call them separated from the Bride of Christ!

The church to which you belong is not separated from the bride of Christ, as per the CCC!!!

I may be separated from the catholic church, but I am totally connected to my God, through a personal relationship with Jesus!

IS THE C.C. SEPARATED FROM THE BRIDE OF CHRIST, AS MY SISTER INSISTS? I PROMISE THIS IS NOT ME YELLING. LOL…

And the more I think about it, maybe I would like the catholic church to add something to their teachings, rather than drop something(like they really would).

Like what???

I’d like to see them out in the streets, spreading the good word, or in acity park, in a not-so nice neighborhood, praying with strangers, and passing out food boxes(Matthew 28:19-20,25:31-46)

You mean like Mother Teresa in Calcutta? That woman is a saint, as you are.

It appears that, at least on the surface, that anyone who disagrees with the catholic position on any thing is called hateful, deluded,ignorant or a liar!

When did the magisters of the C.C. say to you: anyone who disagrees with the catholic position on any thing is hateful, deluded, ignorant or a liar? Watch a little EWTN once in a while; they love their separated brothers and sisters in Christ.

We all need to work on getting tose planks out of our eyes!

If you only knew what some protestants have told me vis-a-vis the C.C. YOU WOULD BE DISGUSTED.

Two questions for you, benedictus2:1) are you now, or have you ever been a nun?2) In post#554, when talking about my former fiance, who by the way, passed away tragically 3 years ago

I’M SOOOO SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS; I CAN TOTALLY RELATE; MY FIANCEE ALSO DIED OF CANCER A FEW YEARS AGO; SHE IS THE VERY REASON WHY I AM A CHRISTIAN BELONGING TO THE C.C. THAT PAIN NEVER REALLY GOES AWAY, DOES IT…

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

For the sake of Christian unity, I make this entirely insincere proposal. *Everyone *knows that the Catholic Church believes far too many things. In order to make it more indistinguishable from Protestantism, and thus more attractive to Protestants and others attracted to a more simple belief system, I suggest that the Catholic Church make just a few changes.

-Stop claiming to be the one true Church. As the parable of the workers clearly means, those denominations which were founded at the eleventh hour will receive the same reward from God at the end of days as those that were founded earlier. Plus, as society progresses, what is newer is always better. Therefore, the denomination of non-denominationalism that was founded sometime this morning is the greatest and most wonderful church of all!

-Take out all the pretty stuff. Those beautiful churches, stained glass windows, statues, paintings, and icons, along with the bells, reverent music, and incense can be really distracting to those trying to have a purely spiritual experience. I recommend whitewashing the windows, throwing out the statues, and getting rid of the incense. Organs absolutely must go. They can be replaced with modern instruments of your choice, though there are extra points for anything electric. The church buildings themselves are a problem. If it is not financially feasible to demolish the structure and build something with a gym and/or coffee shop, it might work (temporarily) to simply hang up some felt banners, remove the altar (or put it off to the side), and replace the hymnals with a projector and powerpoint.

-Stop being so pushy with all the moral teachings. Those rules about sexual behavior, for example, are so last century. To avoid a shock, I recommend a gradual change to more enlightened views. First, allow contraception for married couples. You know most of them are using it anyway, and this will greatly reduce the emotional damage caused by guilt. Then, affirm the practice of sex by unmarried couples who really do love each other and plan to get married someday. Sometime after this, the hard-line definition of marriage can be jettisoned, and the Church can preach tolerance for and fully sanction all manner of relationships. There is no limit to what the Church might find tolerable in the future! It is absolutely crucial in this area not to move too fast. The Protestant denominations did not change overnight, and many of them are still in the early stages of this process. Be patient!

-To further help with the marriage issue, begin granting annulments for more and more reasons. The Catholic teaching on the permanence of marriage is a source of contention between them and the Protestants and even the Orthodox. Once the percentage of annulments granted by the Catholic Church approaches the percentage of divorces recognized by the Protestants and the Orthodox, the Catholic Church can slowly begin calling annulments divorces, and the Church will no longer be at risk of looking old-fashioned when compared with their more enlightened separated brethren.

Continued in next post…

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Continued from previous post:

-The Church will also have to change its stance on the whole abortion issue. Again, this is an area where the Church must move very slowly. First, allow for exceptions in the hard cases. Many otherwise conservative Protestant denominations allow this, so the Catholic Church will blend right in. Then, as time goes by, expand the definition of these hard cases. Stop mentioning the child (unless it is to mention the extreme hardships and poverty it will surely endure) and focus on the emotional pain of the mother. After a relatively short time, the Church can claim that abortion is the merciful choice for both mother and child alike. The world will praise the Church for its enlightened views and for its compassion.

-Toss out those pesky extra seven books in the Bible. The Protestant reformers did almost five hundred years ago, and the Catholic Church is way behind the times on this. It will be so much easier to engage in ecumenical dialogue with other denominations, if everyone is using the same Bible. The eventual goal here is to remove the entire New Testament, as well. Its existence in the Christian Bible is a source of contention with the Jews, and it would be a great day for unity when that problem is finally resolved.

-The sacraments will have to go. This task will be easier after the upgrade of the church building, as the people will be less attached to the physical when there is less of beauty to attract the senses. Minimize the physical in all sermons, and speak of the Christian faith purely in spiritual terms. Slowly reduce the frequency of the Eucharist until the congregation ceases to expect it as part of the service. The goal is to eventually turn it into a memorial of sorts, which is tacked onto the end of a service about four times a year. Replace the wine with grape juice, as the more the memorial diverges from the original event, the easier it will be to convince the people that it is merely symbolic.

-Stop reciting the Creed. It does not come directly from Scripture, and its use offends many Protestants. As these other changes take place, many in the Church will be uncomfortable saying the Creed, as it states things that they no longer believe. Slight modifications to the liturgy will be best at this point, until finally no one will even notice the Creed is gone.

-Stop teaching about the saints and their intercession. Ensure that there is a clear divide between Christians on Earth and Christians in Heaven. Teach that those in Heaven are blissfully unaware of what is transpiring down here on Earth. This will, over time, cause people to be detached from the idea of Heaven, until many will cease to believe in it, altogether. It will also break a link with the past that would otherwise cause many in the Church to long for old traditions. Matters of religion are best thought of in non-tangible ways, and a disconnect with those in Heaven, along with the discontinuing of the sacraments, will help people believe that their salvation is purely a matter of the soul, having nothing to do with their physical bodies.

-Stop teaching the necessity of baptism for salvation. This teaching offends people, particularly those who do not understand it, and it is so old-fashioned as to be an embarrassment. Cease the baptism of infants and instead teach that it is only for adults who have made a commitment to Christ. After some time, stop teaching the necessity of it, even for adults, and teach instead that it is a symbolic event that the Christian really ought to undergo, but which has no bearing on his or her salvation. Very soon, the Church will be able to do away with the practice entirely.

That’s enough for now. I think this list fits well with what some others here have suggested. Any thoughts?

 

[GraceDK]

MARY (complete with flesh), she was born into a sinful world(Romans 5:12, 3:23) She called Jesus her Saviour! And because of the above writings of Paul, it means that she also could not have been the product of an **immaculate conception! **The entire bloodline would have to be sinless, because one hiccup and the sin is passed on! So exalt her name, and lift her up; and believe it or don’t, many non-catholics hold Mary in very high esteem, just not like the catholics

1BELEEVR.

Sorry, but I would be embarassed if I was you for showing you have no clue what we believe and what we dont. No wonder you are not catholic if you believe we think Mary was not saved by Christ. She certainly was. She was not conceived by the Holy Spirit. She was a 100 percent creature in 100 percent need of salvation, okay? She received special grace only due to Christ’s salvitic action on the cross when she was being conceived.
Now I know that also sounds a bit far out. But you got to understand that. Mary is NOTHING in herself, everything she is is in Him, through Him and with Him.
I grew up Evangelical and Mary was not a person I ever thought about while growing up. The Catholic teachings about her I also couldnt accept until I earnestly in prayer and humility asked God to teach me. Still I cannot say how and why God has made things this way. Only that He has willed it and given me understanding as I beheld Him in the silence of my soul and truly sought the truth.

For me its still no big deal altough I believe in it. I do not pray to or through Mary, except very little. I go to the people I see for intercession and when I am alone in my room I talk to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and read the Word. I like to keep things simple.

Shalom and Peace.

Grace …

 

[Janet1983]

Janet - so glad you found the answers and you have responded.

It is early in the morning here and I have to bath and begin my day and I have a workshop to go to but will take a look tonight. When I am back you will be sleeping!

Check with you later
Cinette

Well I guess we’re at least on the same schedule for now… As far as I know I’m 1 hour behind you…