What teachings would the Catholic Church have to drop for you to be a catholic

[Sam_777]

I do not pray to or through Mary, except very little.

Hi Grace,

Since you were Evangelical, was it hard for you to call Mary “Mother of God” when you became Catholic?

 

[Janet1983]

…continued…

1. Perpetual adoration
   This is what I responded to above – the same thing.

1. Adoration of the eucharist (blasphemy) instead of focusing on the Word of God
   It is good to hear that your husband is doing better now. This does not change however that the veneration of a mere object continues to be blasphemous.

1. Special priesthood…
   You would have to ask Jesus about that one. He thought it necessary and we could not do without our priests
   Jesus made all Christians to be priests.
   1 Peter 2:5 - “Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.”
   1 Peter 2:9 - “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;”
   Revelation 1:6 - “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
   Revelation 5:10 - “And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”
2. Only the church and especially the pope can interpret scripture
   That is why we are one in our belief. Thank God for the Church who have produced the Catechism for us.
   The Catechism states that we are unable to read and interpret scripture for ourselves:
   “The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.” Pg. 30, #100
   Can only the pope and the leadership of the Catholic church properly interpret God’s Word? Let’s go to the Bible and see how God feels about this teaching. When Paul and Silas preached in Berea, the people:
   Acts 17:11 - “… received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
   In other words, they interpreted the Scriptures for themselves with the help of the Holy Spirit.
   Mark 12:24 - “And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?”
   Why did Jesus chastise the Sadducees for not knowing the Scriptures if it was impossible for them to interpret them?
   Why does Paul instruct us to study the Bible if we can’t interpret it?
   2 Timothy 2:15 - “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
   The Bible reveals that the Holy Spirit, not a group of men, will interpret Scripture for God’s children and will help them to understand all things:
   John 14:26 - “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
   John 16:13 - “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth…”
   The Apostle Paul recognized that the Holy Spirit was the One who taught him:
   1 Corinthians 2:13 - “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”
   1 Corinthians 2:12 - “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.”
   The following verses of Scripture should alarm anyone who believes they need a church to interpret the Bible for them:
   1 John 2:26-27 - “These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie , and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”
   Who will interpret Scripture for you… the Holy Spirit of God or the Roman Catholic church?

continued…

 

[Janet1983]

…continued…

1. Infallibility of the pope when he is speaking ex cathedra
   Jesus said he would be with us always. He said the Holy Spirit would guide us into all truth. So it stands to reason that when speaking ex cathedra the HS will ensure that the Pope cannot err. He might make mathematical errors and grammatical errors and the like but never when he is pronouncing an article of Faith. Makes sense Janet – think about it.
   According to Catholic doctrine, the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine, faith and morals.
   “In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a supernatural sense of faith the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living magisterium, unfailingly adheres to this faith.” Pg. 235, #889
   The Catechism restates the same belief this way:
   “The Roman Pontiff… enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals… This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.” Pg. 235, #891
   The Bible declares that all people are sinners. No one is perfect or infallible in anything:
   Romans 3:23 - “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”
   Romans 3:10 - “As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:”
   Notice, you didn’t read, " no one, except the pope." Jesus is the only infallible person who ever lived:
   2 Corinthians 5:21 - “For he (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin…”
   Scriptures overflow with stories of sinful people. Even those whom God used the most were sinners. God referred to King David as “a man after mine own heart” (Acts 13:22), yet David was a murderer and an adulterer, among other things.
   The Apostle Paul and all the other apostles were sinners. Paul said of himself:
   Ephesians 3:8 - “Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;”
   Nobody in Scripture, except Jesus, was infallible.
2. Sacraments as a means of salvation (works do follow once we are saved because we are already saved) *Sacraments are a means for Grace! Grace builts us up. How can we say we are already saved when we have not reached out destination. We have the means for salvation and we must work out our salvation thru fear and trembling (I think it is somewhere in Romans). I always find it curious and funny (not funny ha ha – funny peculiar) when Protestants say “Are you saved?” “So and so is not saved”

“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.” Pg. 292, #1129
What are the sacraments?:
“There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.” Pg. 289, #1113
These seven sacraments are nothing more than a series of good works. As we have already seen in previous chapters, the Bible states repeatedly that good works will never save anybody:
Romans 3:20 - “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight…”
Here is what God thinks of our good works:
Isaiah 64:6 - “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags…”
Since the sacraments are supposedly necessary for salvation, and since the sacraments are only available through the Catholic church, then obviously, one must be a faithful member of the Catholic church to be saved.
Though you will never hear a spokesperson for Catholicism admit it, this is exactly what this Catholic doctrine purports.
If sacraments are necessary for salvation, why does God’s Word proclaim the following?
John 20:31 - “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
Paul, the Apostle, delivered these sobering words on the subject:
1 Corinthians 1:18 - “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
We ought to obey God’s Word and not the teachings of men.
Acts 5:29 - “Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.”

continued…*

 

[Janet1983]

…continued…

1. Infant baptism – what a question! Go read the Catechism – it is very well and thoroughly explained

According to the CCC Infant Baptism is one of the most critical doctrines of the Catholic church:
“Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called. The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.” Pg. 319, #1250
The Catechism tells us where this cornerstone doctrine originated:
“The practice of infant Baptism is an immemorial tradition of the Church. There is explicit testimony to this practice from the second century on…” Pg. 319, #1252
Here, the Catechism admits that this doctrine is not based upon Scripture. It is a man-made tradition. Paul’s warning might fit well here:
Colossians 2:8 - “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
Jesus was an adult when he was baptized:
Matthew 3:16 - “… Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water…”
Throughout the Bible, baptism always followed salvation. The Ethiopian eunuch who was led to salvation by Philip was an adult when baptized:
Acts 8:38 - “… they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”
Others were baptized after they believed:
Acts 18:8 - “And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.”
After people heeded John the Baptist’s message to “repent,” they were:
Matthew 3:6 - “… baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.”
When Peter preached in Acts, chapter two:
Acts 2:41 - “… they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
When Philip preached to the people of Samaria, men and women were baptized, but no infants were baptized:
Acts 8:12 - “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”
When you were baptized as an infant, were you really baptized, or did you just have some water sprinkled on you?

1. Confession to a priest (though I think that general spiritual guidance and help is appropriate when sought… confessions however are to be made to God) Confessions are made to God in the presence of a Priest (Confessor) who counsels and guides us and who gives us Absolution. Nothing wrong with that. This is a sacrament which Jesus gave us – it was His idea.

It was not His idea and the church does declare that the priest has the power to forgive sins…
"Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins ‘in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.’ " Pg. 367, #1461
We are supposed to confess our sins to each other, but only to pray for each other. That does not include a special priest. A priest cannot forgive sins in the name of Christ (even though the CCC states that: Pg. 363-364, #1448)
James 5:16 - “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.”
God will forgive our sins and Him alone if we confess our sins to Him alone.
1 John 1:9 - “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
Mark 2:7 - “Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?”
The catechism teaches that the priest is a mediator between God and man. (See Pg. 365, #1456). But the Bible recognizes only one mediator:
1 Timothy 2:5 - “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”

1. Forgiveness of sins through the church
   The Catholic Church states that it has the power to forgive sins (according to the CCC):
   “There is no offense, however serious, that the Church cannot forgive.” Pg. 256, #982
   “By Christ’s will, the Church possesses the power to forgive the sins of the baptized…” Pg. 257, #986
   “The Church, who through the bishop and his priests forgives sins in the name of Jesus Christ…” Pg. 363-364, #1448
   God is the one who forgives sins, not the church:
   Ephesians 4:32 - “And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.”
   We can come to the Lord Himself:
   Hebrews 4:16 - “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”

continued…

 

[Janet1983]

…continued…

1. Prayer for the deceased (if they are in hell it is too late… if they are in heaven there is no need) If they are in Purgatory? Also God is outside time and prayers are never wasted. You will find all these answers in the Catechism

“Communion with the dead. In full consciousness of this communication of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and because it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins she offers her suffrages for them. Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.” Pg. 250, #958
According to God’s Word, it is neither holy nor wholesome to pray for the dead. Christians are instructed to pray for the living, but not one example exists of true Christians praying for the dead. This is another tradition of men. One must be loosed from their sins before death.

1. Purgatory (It is either heaven or hell… either a full atonement through the sacrifice of the Lord or none) Let’s say that someone like Mother Teresa dies at the same time as one who has not led a saintly life and whose sins had not been confessed and therefore forgiven and who has not been cleansed of his/her sin? The latter would have to be purged of their sin while the former may go straight to heaven. This is fully explained in the Catechism

There is no such thing as a purgatory. Those who die without the saving grace of Christ will go to hell no matter how “good” or “bad” their life was. One single sin can condemn us.
1 John 3:4 - “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”
The Bible never indicates purgatory exists. Neither does the Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to earn going to heaven. On the contrary, God’s Word declares that salvation is a free gift:
Romans 6:23 - “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Romans 5:18 - “…by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”
Ephesians 2:8 - “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
If the Bible is to be believed, then there is no need for further purification for those who die in Christ. They have already been justified by Jesus:
“Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9
Romans 3:24 - “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”
1 Corinthians 6:11 - “And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus…”
True Christians are already purified because Jesus put away all sin on the cross:
Hebrews 9:26 - “…but now once in the end of the world hath he (Jesus) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”
God’s children are not required to suffer for salvation because they have been bought and paid for:
1 Corinthians 6:20 - “For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.”
The price was the blood of Jesus Christ:
Acts 20:28 - “…feed the church of God, which he (Jesus) hath purchased with his own blood.”

continued…

 

[GraceDK]

Hi Grace,

Since you were Evangelical, was it hard for you to call Mary “Mother of God” when you became Catholic?

Hey brother Sam.
Good to see you.
Actually “Mother of God” was the first Marian dogma that was made in early Church history, and it was made in order to state firmly that Jesus was one person, wholly God and wholly man at the same time, these natures being total and undivided in Him.

Some heretics at that time wanted to say Mary was only mother of His flesh and not his soul, which of course meant they divided the person of Christ etc ( Its interesting to know that also the prophet Muhammed came into contact not with orthodox Christianity but with heresies. Even today in the Koran you can see that Muhammed (and the Spirit that spoke to him) therefore didn’t understand the basic tenets of Christian thought eg. about the Trinity etc).

Also the Orthodox Church holds this dogma as true… Mary Mother of God. They call her Theotocos, which is almost the same, meaning, Godbearer.
Even as an Evangelical i am certain I would have agreed with this dogma, if i had been ever told about it.

It was the other dogmas: Mary’s perpetual virginity and immaculate conception that puzzled me. I nearly left because of it at one point but God gave me what I would call a direct inspiration about it, like a flash of a word from heaven, and since then I have had no problems with it.

How about you?

Peace to you Sam .

 

[Janet1983]

…continued…

1. Classification of sins (the wages of sin is death) Sweetheart if you murder someone you have committed a mortal sin – if I hit you over the head with my Bible or my Dictionary (which is a lot heavier) I would be committing an offense which is a venial sin but an offense nevertheless. These things make sense. When we go to Confession we need to do an examination of conscience. Yesterday funny enough the gospel reading was on the 10 Commandments and I listened to a Priest on EWTN who went through the commandments and enumerated the different types of sin under each commandment. We should always do that. Sometimes we need to be reminded of our sins.
   The Catechism states that there are varying degrees of sin:
   “Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity.” Pg. 454, #1854
   First are venial sins:
   “One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave manner, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.” Pg. 456, #1862
   Then there are mortal sins:
   “Mortal sin… results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’ s kingdom and the eternal death of hell…” Pg. 456, #1861 (See also Pg. 264, #1014, Pg. 269, #1033, Pg. 270, #1035 and Pg. 270, #1037.)
   When we turn to God’s Holy Word, we get a totally different picture:
   1 John 3:4 - “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”
   Since we have all broken a command of God, the Bible declares that we are all sinners.
   Romans 3:23 - “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.”
   Because of sin we all deserve to die and suffer the punishment of hell:
   Romans 6:23 - “The wages of sin is death…”
   God’s Word makes no distinction as to the gravity of certain sins. It simply states that the wages of sin is death.
   But God in His great grace and love, sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross to pay the price for all sin once and for all:
   Hebrews 10:12 - “But this man (Jesus), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;”
   True salvation is only available through Jesus Christ because only He could shed sinless blood to pay the penalty for all sin:
   Colossians 1:14 - “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:”
   Matthew 26:28 - “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
   While God does expect His children to confess their sins to Him, once sins are confessed and forgiven, God makes a wonderful promise:
   Hebrews 10:17 - “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.”
   By human standards we do classify sin as you know. A sin is greater because of the one the sin is against. It wouldn’t be too much of a problem seeing a child out in the yard stepping on fire ants. It would however be a lot different if the child would be out there mutilating living cats. It would be far worse if we would see somebody out in the street brutally killing a child. The sin would be much greater in our estimation because the one the sin is against is of more worth.
   How great then is a sin committed against an infinitely holy God? Even the smallest sin committed against an infinitely holy God is infinitely wicked.
   Without Jesus Christ there is no hope. He is the one who died for our sins. He was the perfect sacrifice. He was without sin and therefore could pay for our sin. If His atonement is not applied on us we will have to be judged and even the smallest sin is breaking the whole of the Law. Without Jesus Christ our sin will result in infinite punishment in hell.
   All we need to do is receive Him as our Saviour.
   God wants you to be saved today:
   2 Corinthians 6:2 - “…behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.”

In Him,
Janet

 

[Sam_777]

How about you?

I’m still working on it, the best thing I can say so far is calling her “Mother of Lord Jesus”.

However, I’m keep learning about Catholicism from CAF, therefore one day I might reach a level of understanding where I can call her “Mother of God”.

 

[GraceDK]

I’m still working on it, the best thing I can say so far is calling her “Mother of Lord Jesus”.

However, I’m keep learning about Catholicism from CAF, therefore one day I might reach a level of understanding where I can call her “Mother of God”.

If you say “mother of my Lord” then you are like Elizabeth when Mariam visited her in En Kerem. Elisabeth said: “How can it be that the mother of my Lord comes to visit me?”
When we here say Lord, we mean not like a knight or a fine man in the British society, but we mean Lord-God Almighty

At any rate Sam, this is not so important. Immense yourself in the Gospels and love of Christ so that one day you can bring your beloved people out of captivity like Moses did with Israel.

Peace be with you.

 

[SteveGC]

For anyone struggling with the theology of Mary, and want to really try to understand it, may I suggest you listen to this 13 part series (which you can download) based on Dr. Scott Hahn’s book, “Hail Holy Queen”. Dr. Hahn was a staunch, Calvinist anti-Catholic and Presbyterian minister, who came to Catholic conversion about 20 years ago. He is a fair and balanced theologian who explains Mary from an ecumenical perspective, dispelling many myths and misconceptions, but also explaining why God, and The Church, has elevated her as they have.

Click here for the link This is not my personal website. I simply googled it to find it.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

Free will, something given to us by God, is what leads people to a church, away from a church, or to no church at all!

I think this is true. I think that our wills are not really “free” because they are enslaved to sin. Most people are led about by what they believe is “free will”, and are in fact, being led by the world, the flesh and the devil.

On the contrary, I think it is grace that leads us into Christ, and that our will is only “free” after it has been liberated by His blood.

And, personally, I believe that if a mortal man tells anyone that they’re not saved, or thir salvation isn’t secure; that person is steeped in blasphemy, as God is the ONLY one who knows what’s in your heart,aside from you!

I think it is presumptuous for us to make pronouncements on either side of this - claiming to be saved, and claiming not to be.

And furthermore, no one,not even the pope, has the authority, although some have the audacity, to exclude(or call them separated from the Bride of Christ!

You are right. Fortunately, the Pope did no such thing.

I may be separated from the catholic church, but I am totally connected to my God, through a personal relationship with Jesus!

If you were totally connected, then we would be totally connected to one another. Let’s face it, we are separated, and divisions do exist.

 And the more I think about it, maybe I would like the catholic church to add something to their teachings, rather than drop something(like they really would). I'd like to see them out in the streets, spreading the good word, or in acity park, in a not-so nice neighborhood, praying with strangers, and passing out food boxes(Matthew 28:19-20,25:31-46)

It is clear that there is a lot about the Catholic Church you have not seen.

It appears that, at least on the surface, that anyone who disagrees with the catholic position on any thing is called hateful, deluded,ignorant or a liar!

Are there other options? Of these, I think your disagreements are based in lack of knowledge.

We all need to work on getting tose planks out of our eyes! d!

Indeed. This is the reason most of us are here, and I commend you for recognizing that this needs to be done. When it is done, we will experience the unity that Christ desires for us.

Religion is defined as:Scrupulous conformity to an institutionalized system of attitudes, beliefs, and practices; constraining or tying back!

According to whom? And why would you accept this definition over what you would read in Scripture?

1 Tim 2:10
“…good deeds, as befits women who profess religion.”

Does this not imply that one of the characteristics of a person who professes religion is good deeds?

1 Tim 3:16
" Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion:…"

Does it seem to you as if Paul does not embrace the mysteries of the Christian life as religion?

2 Tim 3:4-5
“holding the form of religion but denying the power of it.”

Does not this imply that there is power in religion?

James 1:26-27
“If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man’s religion is vain. 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.”

What is it about religion that you think the Apostle disdains here?

And I don’t believe that Paul, in Acts 26, was extolling religion as much as celebrating freedom from it! Religion, finds its roots in legalism(law), whereas Christianity is based on love and grace, through faith:thumbsup:

This is a separation and distinction never made by the Apostles. In fact, they believed that freedom was found in practicing one’s religion through faith. Paul, as well as all the other Apostles were faithful Jews unto their deaths. They continued to follow the Jewish Laws and Traditions. The only difference was in their attitude and understanding of the Law. They realized they can only follow it through grace, by faith. They did not abandon their religion.

 

[guanophore]

Paul really nails it, when he speaks about the law, and grace!

Indeed he does. However, he is comparing righteousness by faith against righteousness of the flesh, striving to keep the law without grace. It has nothing to do with “pure religion”, which is based on grace.

I wholeheartedly believe in the Ten Commandments, and know that even today, that Jesus is still the ONLY one who has kept all ten, from birth to death! While we are wearing flesh, we cannot do it!

You seem to be confusing justification through the Law with religion. The two are not necessarily related.

You have also been wrongly taught that we cannot keep the commandments. Jesus does not command us to do anything that He does not give us the ability to do. It is possible to follow the commandments while we are in the flesh. When the Spirit rules us, we do not give in to the desires of the flesh.

The teaching that this is not possible, under grace, constitutes a deficient gospel. This is one of the main reasons that the Church anathematized the Reformers. This is not the gospel we received from the Apostles.

As for the poe, sorry to disagree with you, but he is not my holy father, spiritual leader, or anything, but a man anointed to lead a religious sect!

I accept that we are in disagreement,and there is no need for you to be sorry about it. Jesus appointed Peter to shepherd and feed the flock. Peter passed this responsiblity on to his successor, and so on, up to Pope Benedict today. What God has joined, man does not put asunder. God joined Peter to Himself in shepherding the flock. You can reject any and all of the gifts of God given to you for your benefit. However, your rejection does not change the gift. The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

And shaking hands is also a cultural show of courtesy!

Yes, of course. I am just pointing out that these customs are influenced by human culture. There is no commandment of God to kiss the Pope’s ring. It is a gesture of respect and obedience.

If the law could save us, we wouldn’t need Jesus:thumbsup:

You are erroneously confusing the law with religion.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Christine2009,

Let me try my hand at answering your questions…

Why does a person have to be Catholic?
Why not a follower of Jesus Christ aka Christian. .

Actually, you answered your own question with the quote from Matt 16:18. But, since you immediately dismissed it, I get the impression that you don’t believe it. Is that true?

Yes Jesus Christ did tell Peter,“Upon this rock I will build my church.” But many changes have been made by popes since then
that Peter may or may not have approved of.

Christ told the Apostles that the Holy Spirit (not Peter) would guide the Church - and this guidance became immediately clear on that First Pentecost Sunday. After the Resurrection, Christ appeared to these fearful Apostles locked in a room in Jerusalem - and acted in a most glorious manner that you can find in your own Bible in John 20: 20-23. Christ gave them the Holy Spirit and told them to either forgive - or, not forgive - the sins of men. Now, even the Pharisees knew that only God can forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12) - and, here we have the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity delegating this power to men! So, it would seem that if you want your sins forgiven, you are best advised to go to the CC! Have you a NT scriptural reference for having your sins forgiven in another way?

Besides, Christ built a dynamic and growing Church on Peter - who, following Christ’s example, passed on his authority to his Successor, Linus. And, while we do not know a lot about the second leader of the CC, we do know that his world was a little different from Peter’s… and that same experiece of differences can be traced all the way to our current leader, Benedict XVI. The world has changed since 1st Century Judea…and, not always for the better. But, in all of that time, the CC has never made an error in teaching any aspect of Faith or Morals. (For example, the CC has always taught that Jesus Christ instituted the Mass and ordained His Apostles at the Last Supper, that the Real Presence is that the Consecrated Host has only the appearance of common, unleavened bread - but, in reality it is the Body, Blood, Human Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ - True God and True Man. From the very beginning, there were arguments about these truths that the CC has maintained - and you know what: these same truths are taught today. Surely, if nothing else, this must tell you that there is Something very Special about the CC that can only be explained by the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit.

Praying the Rosary with so much attention given to Mary for one.
I think Peter would say,“Why pray,“Holy Mary Mother of God,pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” when Jesus is the one who died for our sins.”
Anyway to answer the basic question,my answer would have to be the Catholic church would have to put Jesus first above all.

If this is your problem … then, please, consider your problem resolved! The CC has always taught that Jesus Christ - True God and True Man - suffered and died for our Salvation. His Mother Mary - a human creature - did not do this. Christ is the gate that we must go through to get to His Father. The infinite Grace that Christ has provided to each human being - from the very foundations of the world, until there are no more human beings were all earned totally by Christ - not Mary. And, this has always been the teaching of the CC! Does this resolve the matter?

I honestly do not think Peter would be asking, “Why pray to Mary?” He already knows the answer! Mary is the Mother of God - and, as such, has a very special place in God’s design for our Salvation. Mary, standing at the foot of the Cross, was given to us by Christ to be our Mother. She is there for us - to help us to turn to Christ. Look at those pictures of Mary - look how many have her holding the Divine Infant. She is looking at Christ so that our eyes can turn to Christ - Mary is bringing us closer to Christ, not diverting us away from Him.

I think in the scheme of things, you really need to know what it is that the CC is teaching - and to learn this from the CC - not some group whose’s goal is to keep you away from the CC.

God bless,

 

[SteveGC]

excellent post, tom. beautifully expressed.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Janet1983,

Reading your posts have been a distinct and very sad experience for me. There is simply so much bitterness and antagonism toward the Catholic Church, it is difficult to even begin. The process of these posts seems to be an effort to set the teaching of the CC in opposition to your understanding of Word of God. And, then when advised that the Bible has its origins, devleopment and actual establishment with the CC, you turn even more bitter.

Your ability to marshall scripture to disprove the Word of God is truly singular. No where does OSAS appear - we must believe in Christ as our Savior AND with His Grace we must ACT (ah, that would be WORK) on this Faith. Do you recall the second part of the Greatest Commandment? You know… “…love your neighbor as yourself…” Mark 12:28-31. We do not love our neighbor only in theory - this is a hands on experience and one we will all be judged on (Matt 25:35)

You know, if understanding the Bible is so simple and private interpretation (condemned in the NT) is what you want to do, and you, yourself, are able to identify in the CCC where the Church is the only one that can properly interpret the Word of God - not individuals, then why is it there there are so many interpretations out there?

Take any subject you like - with 30,000+ denominations there is a view point that differs from everyone else. This multiplicity of denominations can date themselves only to the 16th Century. Just what do you think was going on prior to that - how was God’s Word being spread throughout the world.

Did Luther or Calvin or Knox or any of the other ‘Reformers’ tell you they were Divinely Inspired to try and uproot Christ’s Church built on Peter (Matt 16:18)? Did they perform any miracles and then rise from the dead to prove their authenticity as spokesmen for God? No. These are all religions of men, preaching another gospel of human and worldly traditions. Christ did not abandon His Church - and, that would be the Catholic Church.

God wants you to be saved today:
2 Corinthians 6:2 - “…behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.” In Him, Janet

You may want to address the issues I have raised - or, you can keep on humming the same tune you’ve been humming before you began this post.

God bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, SteveGC,

QUOTE=SteveGC;4983564]excellent post, tom. beautifully expressed.

Thank you.

God bless

 

[guanophore]

Mary was a major part of the plan of salvation; that is a given, but given her earthly(complete with flesh), she was born into a sinful world(Romans 5:12, 3:23) She called Jesus her Saviour! And because of the above writings of Paul, it means that she also could not have been the product of an immaculate conception! The entire bloodline would have to be sinless, because one hiccup and the sin is passed on!

You are stumbling over the same error that caused the council to develop the doctrine of the Theotokos in the first place. There is a flaw in this reasoning. If one becomes sinful just by virtue of being in the flesh,and being born into the world, then Jesus is also tainted with sin. On the contrary, He took His flesh of her flesh, and could not use tainted flesh. that is why He chose to create her without the stain of original sin. Why is this so hard to believe? No one seems to have a problem believing that God could create Adam and Eve without sin…yet cannot do so for His own mother?

 

[SteveGC]

No one seems to have a problem believing that God could create Adam and Eve without sin…yet cannot do so for His own mother?

I like that, guan. Very good point.

 

[guanophore]

Jesus made all Christians to be priests.

Indeed, we are all called to bring Christ to the world. However, not all of us are called to do this solely, or with singular devotion. Some are.

Only the church and especially the pope can interpret scripture

I think it is quite clear from the plethora of denominations that ANYONE can interpret scripture! The further people get from those that God has appointed for this purpose, the more wild the interpretations get,and the further they drift from the Apostolic teaching.

The Catechism states that we are unable to read and interpret scripture for ourselves:

No, Janet, it does not say this. On the contrary, the Catechism directs Catholics to read scripture daily, and to understand it in the light of the Apostolic Teaching that is preserved in the Church.

“The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.” Pg. 30, #100
Can only the pope and the leadership of the Catholic church properly interpret God’s Word?

It does not say that “only the pope…” can interpret. IT says that they have been entrusted by God to this task. God may also reveal the meaning of scripture to others. But he has promised to guide the Magesterium into “all truth”. We know that when we read, and interpret, so long as we stay within the boundaries of what Christ has taught the Church, then we will not go astray.

Let's go to the Bible and see how God feels about this teaching. When Paul and Silas preached in Berea, the people:

Acts 17:11 - “… received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
In other words, they interpreted the Scriptures for themselves with the help of the Holy Spirit.

No, they searched the scriptures in the light of the Apostolic Teaching, which they received with all “readiness of mind”. This is what you are lacking, Janet. The Apostolic TEaching is alive and well in the Church. You might wish to consider taking the noble attitude of the Bereans, and receive it.

Mark 12:24 - “And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?”
Why did Jesus chastise the Sadducees for not knowing the Scriptures if it was impossible for them to interpret them?

The Catholic Church does not teach it is impossible to read, understand, or interpret the scriptures. You have misunderstood.

Why does Paul instruct us to study the Bible if we can’t interpret it?

Paul did not conceive that the Holy Scripture would be separated from the Holy Tradition that produced it!

2 Timothy 2:15 - “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
The Bible reveals that the Holy Spirit, not a group of men, will interpret Scripture for God’s children and will help them to understand all things:
John 14:26 - “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

That promise was made to that “group of men” that Jesus chose, ordained, trained, empowered, and commissioned. This authority He invested in them was passed on to their successors, along with the teachings which Timothy was urged to “guard”. That which was entrusted to the Church, the Sacred Tradition, is not to be separated from the Scriptures. It constitutes the Apostolic world view, from which the NT must be understood.

John 16:13 - “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth…”
The Apostle Paul recognized that the Holy Spirit was the One who taught him:
1 Corinthians 2:13 - “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.”
1 Corinthians 2:12 - “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.”

The “we” here are the Apostles. The promise was made to them.

The following verses of Scripture should alarm anyone who believes they need a church to interpret the Bible for them:
1 John 2:26-27 - “These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie , and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

This is written to the Church.

Who will interpret Scripture for you… the Holy Spirit of God or the Roman Catholic church?

First of all, the Catholic Church is not “Roman”. Second, there is no distinction between Christ, and His Body, the Church… They are One.

 

[guanophore]

Infallibility of the pope when he is speaking ex cathedra

According to Catholic doctrine, the Pope is infallible in matters of doctrine, faith and morals.
“In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a supernatural sense of faith the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living magisterium, unfailingly adheres to this faith.” Pg. 235, #889
The Catechism restates the same belief this way:
“The Roman Pontiff… enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith - he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals… This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.” Pg. 235, #891
The Bible declares that all people are sinners. No one is perfect or infallible in anything:
Jesus is the only infallible person who ever lived:

You are misunderstanding the Teaching, Janet. The Pope is not an infallible person. It does not mean he is impeccable (cannot or does not sin or otherwise fall short). The Teaching applies to the proclamation of the faith. Just as the Apostles were infallible by the Power of the HS when they proclaimed the Gospel, this charism is preserved in the Church so that Jesus can protect us from error.

Scriptures overflow with stories of sinful people. Even those whom God used the most were sinners. God referred to King David as “a man after mine own heart” (Acts 13:22), yet David was a murderer and an adulterer, among other things.
The Apostle Paul and all the other apostles were sinners. Paul said of himself:
Ephesians 3:8 - “Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;”
Nobody in Scripture, except Jesus, was infallible.

You are right, it is their actions that are infallible, when they are under the control of the HS. These sinful people have also done countless infallible acts, by the Power of God.
It was His choice to work His perfection through fallible people. The Charism of infallibility applies to the Teaching, not the person.

Sacraments as a means of salvation (works do follow once we are saved because we are already saved)

“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.” Pg. 292, #1129
What are the sacraments?:
“There are seven sacraments in the Church: Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.” Pg. 289, #1113
These seven sacraments are nothing more than a series of good works. As we have already seen in previous chapters, the Bible states repeatedly that good works will never save anybody:

You misunderstand the Sacraments, Janet. These are a means of grace. While participating in God’s grace could be described as “good works”, it is really just being willing to stand under the spout where the glory comes out. I guess you have to walk over and stand under the shower, but it hardly seems like “work”. It is more like a privilege.

Think of it this way. If you were blind, and Jesus rubbed mud on your eyes, and told you to go wash in a certain pool, would you call this “nothing more than a good work”? Once being obedient to the Divine command, and finding that your sight was restored, would you still think you did this for yourself?

Romans 3:20 - “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight…”
Here is what God thinks of our good works:
Isaiah 64:6 - “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags…”

You are confusing works of the flesh with the good works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk inthem. It is not right for you to call things that God has made Holy “filthy”.

Since the sacraments are supposedly necessary for salvation, and since the sacraments are only available through the Catholic church, then obviously, one must be a faithful member of the Catholic church to be saved.

There is a flaw in this reasoning. However, it is true that this does apply to Catholics. If we sin after coming to the knowledge of the Truth, there remains no sacrifice for sins. Clearly, you are ignorant of the Catholic faith.

Though you will never hear a spokesperson for Catholicism admit it, this is exactly what this Catholic doctrine purports.
If sacraments are necessary for salvation, why does God’s Word proclaim the following?
John 20:31 - “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

It was written by a Catholic, for Catholics.

Paul, the Apostle, delivered these sobering words on the subject:
1 Corinthians 1:18 - “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
We ought to obey God’s Word and not the teachings of men.

What you are saying is that the Teaching of the Apostles did not come from God, but that they made it up.

Acts 5:29 - “Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.”

At which point do you think the successors of the Apostles got “lost”?