What the heck was wrong with Mr. Luther?

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Paris_Blues

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I just don’t understand why Martin Luther dude had to start the Deformation…excuse me, Reformation. :mad:

He really didn’t have the authority to do so! I can’t help but think that he was not focused right to see what he was doing or - and I really hate to say it but going to say it anyway to make a point - he had a demon?

Haha, I sound like a ProtestCatholic…a Catholic protesting against Protestantism! 😛

JUST KIDDING!
 
Paris Blues:
I just don’t understand why Martin Luther dude had to start the Deformation…excuse me, Reformation. :mad:

He really didn’t have the authority to do so!

Haha, I sound like a ProtestCatholic…a Catholic protesting against Protestantism! 😛

JUST KIDDING!
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Hmmm…you should probably look at it all in an historical light. Of course, strictly speaking, he didn’t have to start any sort of Revolution (my favorite). But, the Renaissance was, as C.S. Peirce called it “a day of doubting axioms.” It was in the air to be rebellious. In science, one saw Copernicus, Kepler, and eventually Galileo. In philosophy, Thomas Hobbes and Rene Descartes were beginning their own little “revolutions.” So, for Luther et al. it doesn’t seem like so much of a stretch in that European cultural climate that they would want to have their own little revolution.

In science, math, and art Modernism doesn’t seem to suffer much. In fact, in these disciplines the Renaissance seemed to lead to a flourishing. However, in theology and philosophy the results were disastrous-just the opposite of what they were in the other disciplines. It would be interesting to explore the reasons why. The Catholic historian Etienne Gilson has done a little of this exploration here and there in his writings.

Also, don’t forget that much of the original intent of Luther was legitimate and could have come from any Catholic at the time (e.g., the 95 theses originating from his familiarity with real abuses in the Church).
 
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Magnanimity:
Hmmm…you should probably look at it all in an historical light. Of course, strictly speaking, he didn’t have to start any sort of Revolution (my favorite). But, the Renaissance was, as C.S. Peirce called it “a day of doubting axioms.” It was in the air to be rebellious. In science, one saw Copernicus, Kepler, and eventually Galileo. In philosophy, Thomas Hobbes and Rene Descartes were beginning their own little “revolutions.” So, for Luther et al. it doesn’t seem like so much of a stretch in that European cultural climate that they would want to have their own little revolution.

In science, math, and art Modernism doesn’t seem to suffer much. In fact, in these disciplines the Renaissance seemed to lead to a flourishing. However, in theology and philosophy the results were disastrous-just the opposite of what they were in the other disciplines. It would be interesting to explore the reasons why. The Catholic historian Etienne Gilson has done a little of this exploration here and there in his writings.

Also, don’t forget that much of the original intent of Luther was legitimate and could have come from any Catholic at the time (e.g., the 95 theses originating from his familiarity with real abuses in the Church).
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Oh, okay, I see. Know of a website with the history so I can get a better understanding instead of just assuming? I’m too quick to defend the CC!!!
 
He was burdened with scrupulosity. Instead of taking the advice of his spiritual director to put his trust in the Church, he decided that it must be the Church that was wrong and not he. As Magnanimity put it so well, the times were ripe for his type of rebellion. If it hadn’t been, he would have been written off as just another disgruntled monk with an ego problem.
 
Having read a good amount of literature from the period, I would certainly claim that the Catholic church needed major reforms. (One only need read the Prologue to the Canterbury Tales to see the urgent need for reformation.) These reforms did happen, over the course of the next two hundred years. Which is a good thing. We will never know what might have happened if Luther hadn’t started a schism.

It shouldn’t be called the Reformation. It should be called the second Schism.

Luther was a rational man, it seems to me, but he certainly did err in his methods. He had good ideas, but he made himself an adversary of the his family (the Church). This had tragic consequences. Erasmus had similar goals for the church, but worked *within church structures * to enact them.

It’s all very complicated. But I don’t think Luther was possessed: his scriptural analysis, his poetry, and his devotional is truly inspiring – once you get past the fact that the man allowed some very terrible things to happen. I think he asked for Roman Catholic confession on his deathbed. Can anyone verify that?
 
It is a rumor that seems to be untrue but is not known as a fact to be untrue.

It is also generally agreed that the Church had begun to reform and would thusly have done so even without Luther’s schism, though no doubt he sped it up.

My problem with Mr. Luther is as follows… Since the ascencion, there were roughly 1500 years of Godliness in the world. It wasn’t perfect. There were some bad Popes, and some bad kings. There were some sinful things, some abuses, some unjust wars. However, for the most part, people’s lives were centered on the Church and on God.

Then came the reformation. A mere 400 years later, look where we are at 😦
 
Paris Blues:
Oh, okay, I see. Know of a website with the history so I can get a better understanding instead of just assuming? I’m too quick to defend the CC!!!
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That’s OK. A zeal to protect that which you cherish could never be considered unhealthy. But, as to finding out more, you could read the article on “Luther, Martin” of the 1908 Catholic Encylopedia. You can access it from www.newadvent.org. As to other online stuff, I’m not sure. Others here are probably more adept than I at that. The most I could do is recommend books, as that is primarily from where I get my information.

Already mentioned Etienne Gilson. One of his books specific to the issue I brought up is called From Aristotle to Darwin and Back Again. Also, see some of Belloc’s historical books. A History of Christianity by Paul Johnson is good as well. He also has a small book on The Renaissance, which would bolster some of the claims I made. I believe he is a Catholic historian, as well.

There are other enormous works like Warren Carroll’s and Will Durant’s, but you might want to hold off on these, unless you’re already used to reading huge historical multi-volume sets.

Hope this helps! I’m a convert myself. Came in the Sunday before Pentecost in 2004.
 
Paris Blues:
I just don’t understand why Martin Luther dude had to start the Deformation…excuse me, Reformation. :mad:
!
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Protestant revolt may be more accurate. The counter reformation is what helped clean up things.
 
Similar things happen in the Church today, there are some who see some bad priests who see poor application of the Catholic faith and get so worked up in their own problems with it that several things happen.

Sometimes they work hard to fix things, they learn more about the faith and teach others.

Sometimes they break away, I know of a guy who just started his own church in his house a couple months ago. He wanted to make a difference so he makes a new church. I just met him a couple days ago, I plan on going to one of his Bible studies.

There are several other ways this can happen and some stick with the Church and work it out, some break away. To me it is like marriage and divorce.

You stick with the marriage, give it to God and work it out.
You divorce and find another spouse to solve the problems.

God Bless
Scylla
 
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scylla:
I know of a guy who just started his own church in his house a couple months ago. He wanted to make a difference so he makes a new church.
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I just wanted to comment on this statement…

Yup, and that’s how Joyce Meyer started. She is Episcopalian and I read on-line that she believes the Trinity to actually be 9 (nine) not three - each Person of the Trinity having their “own” Trinity. An outright heresy!!!

Charles Stanley, Creflo Dollar, and other famous television evangelist believe this very same heresy.

Incredible.
 
Paris Blues:
I just don’t understand why Martin Luther dude had to start the Deformation…excuse me, Reformation. :mad:

He really didn’t have the authority to do so! I can’t help but think that he was not focused right to see what he was doing or - and I really hate to say it but going to say it anyway to make a point - he had a demon?

Haha, I sound like a ProtestCatholic…a Catholic protesting against Protestantism! 😛

JUST KIDDING!
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He had very little faith, that is my response.
 
Paris Blues:
I just don’t understand why Martin Luther dude had to start the Deformation…excuse me, Reformation. :mad:

He really didn’t have the authority to do so! I can’t help but think that he was not focused right to see what he was doing or - and I really hate to say it but going to say it anyway to make a point - he had a demon?
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That was said of Christ 🙂

You do realise that that kind of argument can be made against any group of which one disapproves ? That’s why it proves nothing.

It could also be argued that the Reformation was a punishment for the sins of the late mediaeval Church… All sorts of reasonings can be made in favour of it, and against it. The trouble with arguments based on allegedly supernatural or preternatural reasons, is that such arguments can be as readily denied as asserted, because they are realities known only through non-rational means.

Suppose you were talking to a Protestant. The only arguments someone who does not agree with your premises (such as a Protestant) would accept, are arguments based on premises that are acceptable to you both - and such a person, would not accept that your argument from demonic possession is valid, since one of the questions dividing you would be this very question of why Luther acted as he did.
Haha, I sound like a ProtestCatholic…a Catholic protesting against Protestantism! 😛

JUST KIDDING!
Click to expand...
 
Um… wasent Luther hyjacked by the politics of his time.
Would his protest against the Church have died young if it had not been fostered by some areligous local rulers as a means of countering what they saw as an expanding Catholic [religous] Empire.
Am I dreaming…or would a poorly educated Catholic monk have the necessary resources to undertake a religous revolution.

Sorta reminds me of what Lenin said…that power just sort of dropped into his lap…

What did Sherlock Holmes say…ahhmm…about Professor Moriarty…There is an evil…
 
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CindyGia:
Yup, and that’s how Joyce Meyer started. She is Episcopalian and I read on-line that she believes the Trinity to actually be 9 (nine) not three - each Person of the Trinity having their “own” Trinity. An outright heresy!!!
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That is heresy, but I don’t think Joyce Meyer has ever taught that. Could you please reference your source for that claim? I’d be interested to know if it was true.

David
 
The pope wantd to make money off of indulgences (yeah, ill easiely admit we had bad popes)… he usually went to the augistanian munks to promote things, but feared they would try and keep some of the money, so he went to another group.
one of thos augistanian monks was Mr. Luther. he didnt like the outrageous actions involving indulgences, and asked that somethign be done about it.
instead of trying to fix teh obvious corruption, the pope and his men tried to have Luther silenced. but rather than giving in, luther fought back, and started to unveil a lot more things that were goign wrong, and had little hope of being fixed.
eventually, he started teachign his own things, contradictory to the corruptions of the leaders of the church, and was excommunicated.
to the churches benefit, they now had a group keeping them in check, and they had a reason to fix thigns, and keep straight…
and dont feel bad… i had that very defensive attitude towards the reformation… i just wish maybe teh people in charge had thought about it a little better…
 
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