WHAT?!? The Shroud of Turin is not the actual cloth then?!?

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Hello, again, BibleReader…

So as not overwhelm us all, let’s toss out some questions one at a time:

**It is fairly well established that there is no image underneath the many, many blood stains. **

According to your theory, we are to believe that the forgers placed the blood on the fake cloth before the image was made, yes?

If so, why would they do that? It is more difficult, it places more constraints upon their image formation “project” (perfect position, etc)

If their intent was to be as accurate as possible with the forgery, and they went to the extra trouble to have fresh blood end up in all the right places before the image was even there, these forgers would have needed to know that there was no image under the blood of the original. How would they know that, BibleReader?
(We know you’ve got an answer for it, we just want to see what it is!)
GOD BLESS US ALL!
 
Kurt G.:
Hello, again, BibleReader…

So as not overwhelm us all, let’s toss out some questions one at a time:

**It is fairly well established that there is no image underneath the many, many blood stains. **

According to your theory, we are to believe that the forgers placed the blood on the fake cloth before the image was made, yes?

If so, why would they do that? It is more difficult, it places more constraints upon their image formation “project” (perfect position, etc)

If their intent was to be as accurate as possible with the forgery, and they went to the extra trouble to have fresh blood end up in all the right places before the image was even there, these forgers would have needed to know that there was no image under the blood of the original. How would they know that, BibleReader?
(We know you’ve got an answer for it, we just want to see what it is!)
GOD BLESS US ALL!
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First, I believe that underlying your question is the assumption that either the Turin shroud is THE shroud, or else the Turin shroud is precisely identical to the Shroud it was copied from.

I don’t think that either assumption is true.

I think that the Shroud that the Turin shroud was copied from is THE shroud, and that THE shroud is much better.

I suspect that WHEN the blood was applied to the Turin shroud was governed by something as mundane as, “Oh, look! The blood, in the bowl, of the corpse we are making a picture of in the camera obscura is starting to skin-over! Quick! Apply the blood to the linen, where we are supposed to!”

In other words, my friend, you are looking at something which was convenient to the forgers, and which is not something clever and insightful, butr rather something they HAD to do, to make a good forgery, which DOES NOT EVEN NECESSARILY CONFORM TO THE ACTUAL REAL SHROUD OF CHRIST!, and asking, “Okay! Tell me! How did they know to do something as clever as that!”

After the blood is applied to the image, while the image sits in the camera obscura, forming, for hours, the blood splatters chemically interfere with image formation, so that when the image is washed after image formation, all that is left, where blood was splattered, instead of image, is washed-out bloodstains.

YOU ask, “How did they know how to DO something THAT CLEVER! THAT INSIGHTFUL???”

I think that the FORGERS asked, “Ah, shucks!!! Why did that darn criminal’s blood start to coagulate in the bowl? Why did we have to spoil the image like that?”

In other words, I think that what you discuss as an amazing thing is a DEFECT!

For decades, archaelogists have almost “worshipped” those “Venuses” our Magdalenian Epoch ancestors carved, as amazing productions, speaking enormous, profound things about our ancestors’ philosophical leanings.

Then one scientist put one in his pocket, and ran his hand over it, and said, “Uh, guys, do you know what I think these Venuses are? I think that they are Magdalenian Epoch ‘pocket porn.’”

I think that you are doing the same thing with the shroud of Turin.
 
Gee, BibleReader, you didn’t have to shout…
We can hear you fine.

Sometimes folks just have to agree to disagree.

You are convinced the shroud is a photograph,
I am convinced it is not.

You therefore claim to know exactly how it was all made,
while I claim to be still searching for how it was made.

You earlier claimed that we who continue the search do harm to the Church… how so?
 
Please explain this, BibleReader: In the year 700, an Italian priest began to have doubts about the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. One day, during a mass, he asked God to restore his faith. During the Consecration of that same mass, the hosts and wine became actual flesh and blood. Nearly 1300 years later, scientists were able to conduct tests on the decayed flesh. It was found to match the DNA found on the Shroud of Turin! So, these forgers would’ve not only had to have found an AB doner, it would’ve had to be an exact genetic match to Jesus Christ!
 
Hello Spyder,

I am very interested in these miracles associated with the Eucharist and the Shroud. However, whenever I bring evidence of these miraculous happenings up to them, they ask for proof, or some written material from the scientific study. Do you have a website I could look at about the studies done on the Shroud DNA and the Eucharist from 700 or any of the Eucharistic Miracles. It would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You,
ak_mike:)
 
Kurt G.:
Gee, BibleReader, you didn’t have to shout…
We can hear you fine.

Sometimes folks just have to agree to disagree.

You are convinced the shroud is a photograph,
I am convinced it is not.

You therefore claim to know exactly how it was all made,
while I claim to be still searching for how it was made.

You earlier claimed that we who continue the search do harm to the Church… how so?
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Hi, Kurt.

Please forgive me if you thought my capitals indicated shouting. I do that sometimes to convey exact meaning. In English, meaning changes with emphasis.

For example, “WHILE we eat dinner, my dog eats steaks,” means that the dog makes a point of eating steaks only while we eat dinner;

“While WE eat dinner, my dog eats steaks,” suggests that my dog refuses to eat steaks while others are eating dinner and not us;

“While we EAT dinner, my dog eats steaks,” suggests that my dog refuses to eat steaks if the family members THROW dinner at one another;

“While we eat DINNER, my dog eats steaks,” suggests that my dog refuses to eat steaks while we eat BREAKFAST;

like that.

I’m just using emphasis here and there, to eliminate ambiguity inhering in the written word.

Up above you suggest, “You are convinced the shroud is a photograph, ****I am convinced it is not.” Well, let’s say I’m shook-up about the evidence against the Shroud. I won’t commit. And I think that the Church’s current position is wise.

You suggest, “You therefore claim to know exactly how it was all made, ****while I claim to be still searching for how it was made.” Nah. I say what I say because if it appears that it COULD HAVE BEEN MADE by forgers in the way suggested (and remember that the shroud is probably the most stolen and forged relic in history), we should not affirm its genuineness – doing the opposite makes the Faith look bad.

“You earlier claimed that we who continue the search do harm to the Church… how so?” ONLY “continue the search,” huh? Good! We agree! Since you are ONLY continuing to SEARCH for the truth about the Shroud, and haven’t finished, then you, like me, decline to affirm that it is genuine, right?

Cool! We agree!

To answer your question: Hundreds of thousands have read, and seen the pictures indicating, that there is an extremely round, perfect little circle on the Jesus figure’s nose on the shroud. Whether you like it or not, it is there for all to see. It really doesn’t look like it belongs there. It’s like finding an alarm clock in a pyramid opened for the first time.

When the folks see the pictures with the perfect little circle, and THEN they read that so many Catholics get so EXCITED and ENTHUSIASTIC about the shroud, they think, “Oh! The ‘Catholic Church’ thinks that that Shroud with the circle on the nose is REAL! It’s a false religion!”

This is what is meant by, “Scandalizing to the Faith.”

In other words, beware of your own enthusiasm for the shroud. A stone in the pond makes ever-expanding waves. YOUR waves may be pushing folks AWAY FROM the true Church.
 
Hello again, BibleReader:
Thanks for an honest answer. I now think I was misreading your “energetic” responses. You are not absolutely sure the Shroud is a photo, any more than I am absolutely sure it is genuine. You are just attempting to subdue some over-exuberance from some of us other “shroudies”… I can now understand that.

Most folks who left the Shroud behind did so after the C14 test.
Seems you hung on for that, and left later, yes?

And those of us who point out “tough” problems with the proto-photo theory are not necessarily doing it to prove authenticity…rather, just to show that the photo idea has its problems like the other theories. If you pretend it doesn’t, I think you’re just being hardheaded. (That’s not a criticism, just an observation).

Don’t worry about the Church making any official statements about it. I think the Shroud debate is alive and well again, and will probably go on for quite some time…

Personally, I love Accetta’s work, as it is the only one I know of which gives hope of explaining the skeletal images present.
But of course, it gets into the unexplainable/supernatural, and that turns some people away.

And I would still like to find out for certain exactly who called for the C14 study in the first place… does anyone remember anything about it?

GOD BLESS US ALL!
 
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BibleReader:
Hundreds of thousands have read, and seen the pictures indicating, that there is an extremely round, perfect little circle on the Jesus figure’s nose on the shroud. Whether you like it or not, it is there for all to see. It really doesn’t look like it belongs there. It’s like finding an alarm clock in a pyramid opened for the first time.

When the folks see the pictures with the perfect little circle, and THEN they read that so many Catholics get so EXCITED and ENTHUSIASTIC about the shroud, they think, “Oh! The ‘Catholic Church’ thinks that that Shroud with the circle on the nose is REAL! It’s a false religion!”
Click to expand...
Biblereader, I have been wondering what you keep referring to when you talk about this round mark on the nose of the Shroud…but now i am looking at a close up photo of the facial area on the Shroud and I do not see what you are talking about. To me the nose just looks like a nose, there is no sign of any perfectly round mark in the middle of the face.

Where exactly is this round mark? Maybe I’m not looking in the right place.
 
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ak_mike:
Hello Spyder,

I am very interested in these miracles associated with the Eucharist and the Shroud. However, whenever I bring evidence of these miraculous happenings up to them, they ask for proof, or some written material from the scientific study. Do you have a website I could look at about the studies done on the Shroud DNA and the Eucharist from 700 or any of the Eucharistic Miracles. It would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You,
ak_mike:)
Click to expand...
Certainly, mike. Just go to this link:

tldm.org/misc/HolyHour.htm

Hope that helps!
 
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BibleReader:
In other words, beware of your own enthusiasm for the shroud. A stone in the pond makes ever-expanding waves. YOUR waves may be pushing folks AWAY FROM the true Church.
Click to expand...
Actually the truth is quite the contrary, BibleReader. The Shroud has already converted hundreds TO the Catholic faith. And it continues to do so as scientific evidence continues to suggest its authenticity. Speaking of evidence, you haven’t answered my question as to how these forgers just happened to get a victim with the same blood type as Jesus Christ (the transformed flesh and blood were both found to be AB).
 
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Spyder1jcd:
Please explain this, BibleReader: In the year 700, an Italian priest began to have doubts about the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist. One day, during a mass, he asked God to restore his faith. During the Consecration of that same mass, the hosts and wine became actual flesh and blood. Nearly 1300 years later, scientists were able to conduct tests on the decayed flesh. It was found to match the DNA found on the Shroud of Turin! So, these forgers would’ve not only had to have found an AB doner, it would’ve had to be an exact genetic match to Jesus Christ!
Click to expand...
Please excuse the rather important error, but as of yet, scientists have not been able to get a good sample from the Shroud to actually compare DNA. But there is still the fact that the transformed flesh and blood are both type AB, the rarest in the world.
 
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martino:
Biblereader, I have been wondering what you keep referring to when you talk about this round mark on the nose of the Shroud…but now i am looking at a close up photo of the facial area on the Shroud and I do not see what you are talking about. To me the nose just looks like a nose, there is no sign of any perfectly round mark in the middle of the face.

Where exactly is this round mark? Maybe I’m not looking in the right place.
Click to expand...
Well I have just looked at a few of the most popular websites devoted to the Shroud as well as 2 very exhaustive books on the subject and I have yet to find a single mention of this circle on the nose! In fact one of the books focuses on the similarities between the face on the Shroud and the face on an icon from St. Catherine’s Monastery and they point to the tip of the nose as an exact match.

Can you give me some additional information so that I can properly evaluate your “round mark” on the nose theory? From what I have read of your posts this issue seems to be at the very center of the debate, at least in your eyes!
 
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martino:
Biblereader, I have been wondering what you keep referring to when you talk about this round mark on the nose of the Shroud…but now i am looking at a close up photo of the facial area on the Shroud and I do not see what you are talking about. To me the nose just looks like a nose, there is no sign of any perfectly round mark in the middle of the face.

Where exactly is this round mark? Maybe I’m not looking in the right place.
Click to expand...
In an image analyzer can see it on the bridge of the nose…
http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/bryce140.jpg
…you can see it with your eyes.
 
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Spyder1jcd:
Actually the truth is quite the contrary, BibleReader. The Shroud has already converted hundreds TO the Catholic faith. And it continues to do so as scientific evidence continues to suggest its authenticity. Speaking of evidence, you haven’t answered my question as to how these forgers just happened to get a victim with the same blood type as Jesus Christ (the transformed flesh and blood were both found to be AB).
Click to expand...
Where the heck did someone get a blood typing of Jesus?
 
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BibleReader:
Where the heck did someone get a blood typing of Jesus?
Click to expand...
There have been Eucharistic miracles where the bread and wine did not retain their appearance but actually became flesh and blood in substance and appearance. Each of these events that have been tested have had AB blood, which is the same as is on the Shroud.
 
As previously mentioned by Genesis315, there have been Eucharistic miracles. Please look at some of my above posts before you start asking questions I’ve already answered.
 
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martino:
I can see that the bridge of the nose stands out a bit but I do not see a perfect cirlce that seems out of place. Is there a website or anything that goes into more detail about this?
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Exactly. The shape on the nose is not an exact circle. The only “obvious” thing is that there is broken cartilage around the upper bridge of the nose. That’s all!
 
Re circle on the nose: Sorry guys – it’s a circle. Look…

mtholyoke.edu/courses/adurfee/calculus/shroud-neg.jpg

Within the limitations presented by a flexible piece of cloth, that’s a perfect circle, too. It’s such a good circle, you’d almost think that you could superimpose a coin there.

I would like someone to post laboratory data, by separate labs, unassociated with each other, preferably in different parts of the globe, blood-typing Eucharistic-bread-turned-flesh.
 
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