WHAT?!? The Shroud of Turin is not the actual cloth then?!?

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BibleReader:
Re circle on the nose: Sorry guys – it’s a circle. Look…

mtholyoke.edu/courses/adurfee/calculus/shroud-neg.jpg

Within the limitations presented by a flexible piece of cloth, that’s a perfect circle, too. It’s such a good circle, you’d almost think that you could superimpose a coin there.
Ok I think I finally see the circle you are talking about. I am no where ready to jump to the conclusion that you have come to, but I do see the outline of a cirlce there. Can you give any resources that go into specifics about this?
 
🙂 😉 Hey ! I went to a lecture on the Shroud of Turin just last week. The scientist involved in the investigation of the shroud gave the lecture. The evidence I saw and heard is very strong that Jesus was buried in a linen cloth. There is no possibility that an artist painted the shroud or that paint or any other stain material was used to paint the figure and blood in the shroud, so says the latest team of scientists that examined the shroud. If the figure in the shroud is a sham them the technology for making the image has not been invented yet. The blood on the shroud is type AB whichis the same as the blood examined in the Eucharistic host that turned into flesh and blood. A coincidence ? Type AB is very rare and the artist could not possibly have known the type. The probability is that type O+ would have been used if the cloth was a sham since most humans have that type. All of the markers of authenticity are there with the exception of the carbon C-14 test which says the shroud was made in the 1290’s. There is a latest science report that came out only last month (2/05) that indicates that the carbon test was not a valid test due to the errors made in testing procedure and analysis. Granted there is a controvery here but I have heard both sides and I am myself an engineer and I say there is good reason to doubt the C-14 test that was done. The people that did the C-14 test would not listen to the scientists on how to do the test right but instead did it their way which caused error and the controversy. Of course people that did the C-14 test say the error is not true but many of us in the scientific and engineering community believe there is good reason to doubt the C-14 test. The shroud had been contaminated with other cloths in the 1200’s to patch the original due to the fire that almost ruined the shroud. The entire shroud was also covered in cloth by Nuns in charge of the cloth back then. Not anymore but it was covered then. The scientists told the testers to take 3 samples in an uncontaminated area but they did not. They only took 1 sample in a bad area.
Having said all of this (and there is a lot more to say about the authenticity of the shroud), it may be possible that the linen cloth was covered over by strips of cloth. I don’t know about anyone else, but I think that covering a dead body with just strip of cloth over the aloe just doesn’t make alot of sense; however, covering the large linen cloth over with strips to keep it tight and bundled nice and neat does make sense to me. I have seen this done in other parts of the world even as late as last month. This means that both the linen cloth and the strip cloth theory could both be true and still be in conformance with the Bible. For those of us that have faith in the shroud. Keep the faith everyone, everything scientific points to the shroud being authentic.
I put up my two happy faces against the 1 unhappy face.
…With faith and love, Gil
 
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RichSpidizzy:
I was under the impression that the Shroud was determined to be a fake a long time ago… never shook my faith at all.

I think someone did carbon dating on the shroud and determined it was not as old as would be required for Jesus to be buried in it (I think it was shown to be about 700 years old which would place it back in the 1300s AD, well after Christ’s death and resurrection)
Indeed the Carbon 14 dating was accurate, HOWEVER, the cloth that they used was a piece of linen-cotton fabric that was very carefuly attached during the 14th century to repair one of the places where the Shroud had been handled many during it’s previous expositions for several hundred years.
The Shroud itself is pure linen and does NOT contain cotton.
Having studied the Shroud for over 30 years, I am firmly convinced that it was the Shroud of Jesus!!
 
gil said:
🙂 😉 Hey ! I went to a lecture on the Shroud of Turin just last week. The scientist involved in the investigation of the shroud gave the lecture. The evidence I saw and heard is very strong that Jesus was buried in a linen cloth. There is no possibility that an artist painted the shroud or that paint or any other stain material was used to paint the figure and blood in the shroud, so says the latest team of scientists that examined the shroud. If the figure in the shroud is a sham them the technology for making the image has not been invented yet. The blood on the shroud is type AB whichis the same as the blood examined in the Eucharistic host that turned into flesh and blood. A coincidence ? Type AB is very rare and the artist could not possibly have known the type. The probability is that type O+ would have been used if the cloth was a sham since most humans have that type. All of the markers of authenticity are there with the exception of the carbon C-14 test which says the shroud was made in the 1290’s.

on fol There is a latest science report that came out only last month (2/05) that indicates that the carbon test was not a valid test due to the errors made in testing procedure and analysis. Granted there is a controvery here but I have heard both sides and I am myself an engineer and I say there is good reason to doubt the C-14 test that was done. The people that did the C-14 test would not listen to the scientists on how to do the test right but instead did it their way which caused error and the controversy. Of course people that did the C-14 test say the error is not true but many of us in the scientific and engineering community believe there is good reason to doubt the C-14 test. The shroud had been contaminated with other cloths in the 1200’s to patch the original due to the fire that almost ruined the shroud. The entire shroud was also covered in cloth by Nuns in charge of the cloth back then. Not anymore but it was covered then. The scientists told the testers to take 3 samples in an uncontaminated area but they did not. They only took 1 sample in a bad area.
Having said all of this (and there is a lot more to say about the authenticity of the shroud), it may be possible that the linen cloth was covered over by strips of cloth. I don’t know about anyone else, but I think that covering a dead body with just strip of cloth over the aloe just doesn’t make alot of sense; however, covering the large linen cloth over with strips to keep it tight and bundled nice and neat does make sense to me. I have seen this done in other parts of the world even as late as last month. This means that both the linen cloth and the strip cloth theory could both be true and still be in conformance with the Bible. For those of us that have faith in the shroud. Keep the faith everyone, everything scientific points to the shroud being authentic.
I put up my two happy faces against the 1 unhappy face.
…With faith and love, Gil

Gil: See my comments on next item concerning the Carbon 14 dating. Incidentally they’ve found another facial image (not as clear) on the reverse side when new backing was attached.
 
buffalo said:
The Shroud Website

****Q: ****In the Bible (John 19:38-42), it says that Jesus was wrapped in linen cloths (plural). There was also another cloth that was wrapped around his head. The Shroud is only one piece of cloth. I was wondering if there was any explanation.

In the Cathedral of Ovieto in Spain, there exists a cloth dating back AT LEAST to the 7th century. On this face cloth there are IDENTICAL marks which are also on the Shroud of TUrin.
 
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BibleReader:
Continuation of reply to Spyder…

“How could this medieval photographer have know the exact details of the circumstances of Roman crucifixion, including the nail wounds in the wrists?..How could a medieval artist have displayed a knowledge of physiology that would not be known until centuries later (apparently referring to the thumb business)?..Encode the wound on the cloth” in a way that just can’t have been known to a forger?..“Encode the appearance of a Pontius Pilate lepton” on the shroud…Encode a line representing the narrow lesion of the side wound…Encode blood marks on the cloth in exactly the form and shape that develop from wounds on human skin…”

I WOULDN’T USE THE WORD “ENCODE.” IT MAKES THE FORGERS SOUND LIKE CIA CRYPTOGRAPHERS. INSTEAD, I USE “COPY.” REMEMBER THAT THIS IS WHAT I SUSPECT WAS THE SCENARIO FOR THE FORGERY…

It was an “inside job.” The House of Savoy DID once have the real thing in their possession, but one or more dishonest custodians cooperated with a rich relic-hungry relic fanatic, of which there were many in Europe, to have a very realistic copy made and swapped-in for the real thing. So, a butler in the House of Savoy suddenly has extremely wealthy children, the real shroud is in hiding in the mansion of some rich European fanatic, and the House of Savoy, unknown even to its patriarchs, suddenly owns one of the coolest forgeries in the history of the world.

IN OTHER WORDS, FORGERS WOULD SIMPLY HAVE COPIED THE ACTUAL SHROUD. IT TOOK NO WONDROUS, UNATTAINABLE LEVEL OF SCIENTIFIC KNOWLEDGE. THEY JUST COPIED THE DARN THING.

THE LEPTON PUT ON THE EYE OF THE CADAVER PHOTOGRAPHED TO MAKE THE SHROUD WOULD HAVE BEEN RECOVERED BY GRAVE-DESECRATING RELIC-HUNTERS AFTER THE FIRST CRUSADE.
Since so many folks are really ‘hung-up’ on this photograph bit, I have one unanswered question: Has ANYONE ever seen another ‘photograph’ of ANYTHING dating from this period??? I think not!!!
 
What with this “camera obscura”, “urine & egg white”’“nose circles” and “photographs” I really find it quite interesting that NO ONE has EVER seen another “photograph” of ANYTHING dating from that period of Da Vinci!!! Explain THAT to me!!!
 
l w smith:
What with this “camera obscura”, “urine & egg white”’“nose circles” and “photographs” I really find it quite interesting that NO ONE has EVER seen another “photograph” of ANYTHING dating from that period of Da Vinci!!! Explain THAT to me!!!
I have no idea what it is either. I am trying to find out though!
 
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martino:
I have no idea what it is either. I am trying to find out though!
Hi martino,

This theory of “Camera Obscura” and use of egg whites and urine to treat the final product are
pretty well explained in the article, The Shroud: Physical Evidence. This is a rather long article,
and in the final section, “Reproducing the Results,” the author reviews three theories:

(1) Myrrh and Aloe
(2) Daubing or Burning the Image
(3) Camera Obscura


Just “PgDn” to the very bottom of the article, and then “PgUp” three times, or until you see the
bold faced heading, (3) Camera Obscura.

Hope this helps.

Frank
 
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