What Theological Contributions Have Protestants Made?

[Contarini]

Not “living faith,” which was the term you used. A person can have true faith without charity, but but not living faith without charity.

And the point I’m making is that in the Protestant view “living faith” is an indissoluble unity–it can’t be split up into “faith plus love” as the Catholic concept of “living faith” can, and it is qualitatively different from dead faith. In the traditional Catholic view, living faith is simply “dead faith” plus charity. I think that the Protestant conception has some distinct advantages and has been a very helpful contribution to the ongoing consideration of the nature of faith by *all *Christians.

But this was already a major theme in Christian theology, especially (though not exclusively) in the West. One thinks immediately, for example, of Franciscan theology.

So if contributions are not innovations, as you and Randy agree, what are they?

A “contribution” as I define it moves the conversation forward in a significant way. The surest way to identify a contribution to Catholic theology is to look at Catholic theologians’ footnotes! And you will find that they frequently reference Protestants (and vice versa of course).

And that’s good. I’m just saying that in that time period, lay Catholics who could afford Bibles or Bible portions, or who had easy enough access to them, did regularly read them, as they had been encouraged to do for many hundreds of years. People of the time wrote about it.

It wasn’t that simple–there was a widespread attitude among many Church officials that laypeople ought not to be given too free access to Scripture, and at certain times and places, where there was particular fear of heresy, this took the form of outright banning of vernacular translations. The only place where this was the case on the eve of the Reformation was England. There were indeed vernacular translations all over the rest of Europe, but these were of relatively recent vintage for the most part (following the invention of the printing press).

All I’m saying is that there was a real difference between the attitude of Catholics and that of Protestants, and that Catholics today have been deeply influenced by the *Protestant *developments in belief and practice with regard to lay Bible reading.

One good starting place for thinking about this difference is a phrase from William Durandus’s 13th-century Rationale divinorum officiorum, speaking of the reading of the Gospel in the liturgy, which he envisions being done only in Latin: “Even when not understood, the power of God’s Word prevails.”

I am not convinced that this is entirely wrong. But the Protestant rejection of this principle was, in the sense I have described, certainly a contribution to the broader conversation among Christians about how Scripture functions within the Body of Christ.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

The Apostles forbade the use of contraception in the Didache (written in 50 AD for the instruction of the Catechumens); are you telling me that they were not being led by the Holy Spirit?

50 AD is an unreasonably early dating for the Didache, and there is no reason to believe that it was actually written by the Apostles.

However, I take the Didache very seriously. It is certainly evidence that early Christians considered abortion to be murder. However, it isn’t clear that it is referring to contraception–I presume you are thinking of the references to “potions” and “magic.” I think it’s quite possible that these are references to contraception, but possible is not the same thing as certain. And given the language, it may be that the Didache’s opposition was to the perceived magical nature of these early contraceptive practices.

Edwin

 

[kimmielittle]

Alligator dung was better to be used as dormant spray for fruit trees. I think you’re thinking of ferrit urine.

I think you might be right:
Alligators for Floridan fruit trees

It was Crocodiles in Egypt

 

[JKirkLVNV]

and what form of contraception do you suppose they used in 50AD? Fig leaf diaphrams?

Condoms existed in ancient times. They consisted of animal gut.

 

[mmmcounts]

I’d put the top 5 most influential Christian theologians in the following order:

1: Augustine
2: Aquinas
3: Luther
4: Calvin
5: Barth

Some of them are Protestants. Their contributions, boiled down to simple words and phrases, are as follows:

Luther- the Reformation.
Calvin- Institutes. Read them.
Barth- neo-Orthodoxy, though he wasn’t a fan of the term.

A few others to look at:

Heirich Bullinger- Second Helvitic Confession; also things having to do with Mary. sacred-texts.com/chr/2helvcnf.htm
George Whitefield- Great Awakening.
David Livingstone- his life. Enough said.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer- The Cost of Discipleship. books.google.com/books?id=GKA2DyNY2H0C&dq=%22the+cost+of+discipleship%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=_ixaS7aBKpTMNZbJpY4P&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Billy Graham- Campus Crusade; combination of evangelism and ecumenism.

Some more contemporary resources to look at:

youtube.com/view_play_list?p=3C80FB5B5ACF36F2&search_query=john+walton&rclk=pti- a valuable contribution to issues concerning Genesis and creation. If you actually watched this whole playlist, it would take about an hour. It does kind of start a little slow, but it picks up a bit more in part 3.
Another contribution from John Walton: biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/tower_walton.pdf. On the Tower of Babel.
desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bfac/bfac.pdf- good contribution by John Piper.

I really have no idea if you’re even going to look at any of these things, though. There was a time when you were a Protestant, and now you are a Catholic. I seriously doubt that this amounts to any kind of attempt to learn something about Protestantism. Whatever you didn’t know about it when you were a part of it is readily accessible to you. If you don’t know something about the movement you left behind, you at least know how to get to it. And if you actually were trying to get to it, you wouldn’t be looking on CAF.

I think this thread amounts to a Randy Carson defense of the Randy Carson perspective on Protestantism: It’s worthless and has contributed nothing of value to Christianity in the last 500 years.

 

[tweetymom]

I’d put the top 5 most influential Christian theologians in the following order:

1: Augustine
2: Aquinas
3: Luther
4: Calvin
5: Barth

Some of them are Protestants. Their contributions, boiled down to simple words and phrases, are as follows:

Luther- the Reformation.
Calvin- Institutes. Read them.
Barth- neo-Orthodoxy, though he wasn’t a fan of the term.

A few others to look at:

Heirich Bullinger- Second Helvitic Confession; also things having to do with Mary. sacred-texts.com/chr/2helvcnf.htm
George Whitefield- Great Awakening.
David Livingstone- his life. Enough said.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer- The Cost of Discipleship. books.google.com/books?id=GKA2DyNY2H0C&dq=%22the+cost+of+discipleship%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=_ixaS7aBKpTMNZbJpY4P&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Billy Graham- Campus Crusade; combination of evangelism and ecumenism.

Some more contemporary resources to look at:

youtube.com/view_play_list?p=3C80FB5B5ACF36F2&search_query=john+walton&rclk=pti- a valuable contribution to issues concerning Genesis and creation. If you actually watched this whole playlist, it would take about an hour. It does kind of start a little slow, but it picks up a bit more in part 3.
Another contribution from John Walton: biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/tower_walton.pdf. On the Tower of Babel.
desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bfac/bfac.pdf- good contribution by John Piper.

I really have no idea if you’re even going to look at any of these things, though. There was a time when you were a Protestant, and now you are a Catholic. I seriously doubt that this amounts to any kind of attempt to learn something about Protestantism. Whatever you didn’t know about it when you were a part of it is readily accessible to you. If you don’t know something about the movement you left behind, you at least know how to get to it. And if you actually were trying to get to it, you wouldn’t be looking on CAF.

I think this thread amounts to a Randy Carson defense of the Randy Carson perspective on Protestantism: It’s worthless and has contributed nothing of value to Christianity in the last 500 years.

:clapping::clapping:

 

[wisdomseeker]

I can’t think of any theological contributions that Protestants have made to Christianity as a whole.

Can you?

If true, then why is this the case?

i will have to admit to this that they have accomplished what no one has in the past. they have turned Catholics against the Church Jesus found.

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation… Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church (CCC, #846-7).

 

[Justy90]

I’d put the top 5 most influential Christian theologians in the following order:

1: Augustine
2: Aquinas
3: Luther
4: Calvin
5: Barth

Some of them are Protestants. Their contributions, boiled down to simple words and phrases, are as follows:

Luther- the Reformation.
Calvin- Institutes. Read them.
Barth- neo-Orthodoxy, though he wasn’t a fan of the term.

A few others to look at:

Heirich Bullinger- Second Helvitic Confession; also things having to do with Mary. sacred-texts.com/chr/2helvcnf.htm
George Whitefield- Great Awakening.
David Livingstone- his life. Enough said.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer- The Cost of Discipleship. books.google.com/books?id=GKA2DyNY2H0C&dq=%22the+cost+of+discipleship%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=_ixaS7aBKpTMNZbJpY4P&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Billy Graham- Campus Crusade; combination of evangelism and ecumenism.

Some more contemporary resources to look at:

youtube.com/view_play_list?p=3C80FB5B5ACF36F2&search_query=john+walton&rclk=pti- a valuable contribution to issues concerning Genesis and creation. If you actually watched this whole playlist, it would take about an hour. It does kind of start a little slow, but it picks up a bit more in part 3.
Another contribution from John Walton: biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/tower_walton.pdf. On the Tower of Babel.
desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bfac/bfac.pdf- good contribution by John Piper.

I really have no idea if you’re even going to look at any of these things, though. There was a time when you were a Protestant, and now you are a Catholic. I seriously doubt that this amounts to any kind of attempt to learn something about Protestantism. Whatever you didn’t know about it when you were a part of it is readily accessible to you. If you don’t know something about the movement you left behind, you at least know how to get to it. And if you actually were trying to get to it, you wouldn’t be looking on CAF.

I think this thread amounts to a Randy Carson defense of the Randy Carson perspective on Protestantism: It’s worthless and has contributed nothing of value to Christianity in the last 500 years.

Amen to that. Thank you for your insightful post here. I couldn’t agree more that Calvin, Luther, Bonhoffer and so many other Protestants have contributed so much in the way of Christianity. It’s just a damned shame that these folks are insulted and demeaned in such a horrible manner here by over zealous snarky self righteous folks like Randy Carson that are hell bent (AND I MEAN IT LITERALLY) on making another “We are better than you are” statement.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

i will have to admit to this that they have accomplished what no one has in the past. they have turned Catholics against the Church Jesus found.

**Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation… Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church **(CCC, #846-7).

what do you mean by this???

 

[Deconi]

Amen to that. Thank you for your insightful post here. I couldn’t agree more that Calvin, Luther, Bonhoffer and so many other Protestants have contributed so much in the way of Christianity. It’s just a damned shame that these folks are insulted and demeaned in such a horrible manner here by over zealous snarky self righteous folks like Randy Carson that are hell bent (AND I MEAN IT LITERALLY) on making another “We are better than you are” statement.

The amusing bit is where The Catholic Church is often accused of being man-made when so many, as yourself, find credence in the musing of men, like Calvin, Luther, Bonhoffer, et al.

Their only contributions, if you can call it that, is that their opinions took root among the multitudes who had not heard of Christ, but also became an attractive alternative to those who dissented against His Church! This is why, to this day, within the landscape of Protestantism, there are those who actively reject Catholicism among the sincere Protestants who seek to actually understand Christ and search for His truth.

The fact remains that protestant theology cannot contribute anything to The Church, because their starting premise is to ‘protest’ and/or ‘critique’ an aspect of Catholicism.

The best protestantism can claim is that some of its tenets have ‘caused’ The Catholic Church to DEFINE whatever aspect or subject they ‘protest’ against.

 

[wisdomseeker]

what do you mean by this???

well, let’s see. their difamations against the CC has turned many away from the Church. they have influenced many including Clergy to simplify the Worship for their sake. they have influenced many Clergy to strip down the Church from its form and arts. they have influenced many to stop believing in the Saints and in the Holy Mother. make no mistake, although we think is because you dont know any better that we should see that those who dont know what they are doing that they indeed can be of great danger to the Catholic Church.

 

[O.S.Luke]

There is a similar thread on Baptistboard.com that asks the same question about Catholicism. It’s nothing but a setup to slam Catholics. I didn’t like it there and I don’t like it here.

So far, one of the best (and most honest) posts here. It WAS a set up all along, and I was trusting enough to play along. That was a mistake.

Good words, qui est ce.

 

[Justy90]

The amusing bit is where The Catholic Church is often accused of being man-made when so many, as yourself, find credence in the musing of men, like Calvin, Luther, Bonhoffer, et al.

Their only contributions, if you can call it that, is that their opinions took root among the multitudes who had not heard of Christ, but also became an attractive alternative to those who dissented against His Church! This is why, to this day, within the landscape of Protestantism, there are those who actively reject Catholicism among the sincere Protestants who seek to actually understand Christ and search for His truth.

The fact remains that protestant theology cannot contribute anything to The Church, because their starting premise is to ‘protest’ and/or ‘critique’ an aspect of Catholicism.

The best protestantism can claim is that some of its tenets have ‘caused’ The Catholic Church to DEFINE whatever aspect or subject they ‘protest’ against.

Oh please, spare me. These folks understood what it is to grow in faith through God’s inherant word and they also understood the oppressions of Rome which are anything but of Christ or his Church. Protesting things such as inquisitions, burning folks at the stake, sexual abuse to minors by Catholic clergy, blatant blashemy against God and defying Scripture are things that these contributors to Christianity did and they are proudly protested even to this day thank God.

 

[izoid]

Oh please, spare me. These folks understood what it is to grow in faith through God’s inherant word and they also understood the oppressions of Rome which are anything but of Christ or his Church. Protesting things such as inquisitions, burning folks at the stake, sexual abuse to minors by Catholic clergy, blatant blashemy against God and defying Scripture are things that these contributors to Christianity did and they are proudly protested even to this day thank God.

I recall reading a thread here recently where a gentleman’s underage grand daughter was impregnated by her non denominational pastor, it appears that sin is committed regardless of church affiliation.

Do you remember the Salem witch trials? Sure seems like the protestants own version of the inquisition.

How about the Anglican church ordaining women and performing homosexual marriages, I can’t find that in the Bible for the life of me.

You see, you like to point out the sins of men within the Catholic Church while ignoring those of the protestant denominations to which you support. Didn’t Jesus say something about this? I remember something about a splinter and a log.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Oh please, spare me. These folks understood what it is to grow in faith through God’s inherant word and they also understood the oppressions of Rome which are anything but of Christ or his Church. Protesting things such as inquisitions, burning folks at the stake, sexual abuse to minors by Catholic clergy, blatant blashemy against God and defying Scripture are things that these contributors to Christianity did and they are proudly protested even to this day thank God.

It always amazes me how folks like you accuses the CC of doing these things.

tell me, what happened to the Catholics in England during 1600s through this day. do you remember? history tells us how Catholics were burned to the stake by your kings and people. do you remember the history of Catholics being dragged by your people down in the streets with their bellies cut out? and they didnt even do anything, this happened to them just because they refused to give up their Catholic Church. there is so much horrors that Catholics had indure in England just because they were Catholics. not mention the beautifull Churches that were taking from the Catholics. as you see you can take our Churches, you can kill us, but what you cannot do is take away our Faith given to us by our Lord. you cannot steal the title of the Church either. all you can do is try, but you will not succeed.

** " There are many other things which keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church – the unanimity of peoples and nations keeps me here, her authority, inaugurated in miracles, nourished by hope, augmented by love and confirmed by her age, keeps me here. The succession of priests from the very seat of the Apostle Peter up to the present episcopate keeps me here and last, the very name of Catholic, which not without reason belongs to this Church alone in the face of so many heretics, so much so that although all heretics want to be called Catholic, when a stranger inquires where a Catholic Church meets, not one of the heretics would dare point out his own basilica or meeting place. The name of the Catholic Church is peculiar to the true Church." ** St Augustine.

 

[izoid]

I’d put the top 5 most influential Christian theologians in the following order:

1: Augustine
2: Aquinas
3: Luther
4: Calvin
5: Barth

Some of them are Protestants. Their contributions, boiled down to simple words and phrases, are as follows:

Luther- the Reformation.
Calvin- Institutes. Read them.
Barth- neo-Orthodoxy, though he wasn’t a fan of the term.

A few others to look at:

Heirich Bullinger- Second Helvitic Confession; also things having to do with Mary. sacred-texts.com/chr/2helvcnf.htm
George Whitefield- Great Awakening.
David Livingstone- his life. Enough said.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer- The Cost of Discipleship. books.google.com/books?id=GKA2DyNY2H0C&dq=%22the+cost+of+discipleship%22&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=_ixaS7aBKpTMNZbJpY4P&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Billy Graham- Campus Crusade; combination of evangelism and ecumenism.

Some more contemporary resources to look at:

youtube.com/view_play_list?p=3C80FB5B5ACF36F2&search_query=john+walton&rclk=pti- a valuable contribution to issues concerning Genesis and creation. If you actually watched this whole playlist, it would take about an hour. It does kind of start a little slow, but it picks up a bit more in part 3.
Another contribution from John Walton: biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/tower_walton.pdf. On the Tower of Babel.
desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bfac/bfac.pdf- good contribution by John Piper.

I really have no idea if you’re even going to look at any of these things, though. There was a time when you were a Protestant, and now you are a Catholic. I seriously doubt that this amounts to any kind of attempt to learn something about Protestantism. Whatever you didn’t know about it when you were a part of it is readily accessible to you. If you don’t know something about the movement you left behind, you at least know how to get to it. And if you actually were trying to get to it, you wouldn’t be looking on CAF.

I think this thread amounts to a Randy Carson defense of the Randy Carson perspective on Protestantism: It’s worthless and has contributed nothing of value to Christianity in the last 500 years.

I find it troubling that you would list 3 men with vastly conflicting teachings as having great contributions. Luther, Calvin and Barth hold opposing positions on issues such as salvation, baptism, the Eucharist, Marian Theology and many others.

It seems that the main contributions of these men separating and dividing instead of uniting the body of Christ. Somehow, I don’t thin God will look kindly at these “contributions”.

 

[Deconi]

Oh please, spare me. These folks understood what it is to grow in faith through God’s inherant word and they also understood the oppressions of Rome which are anything but of Christ or his Church. Protesting things such as inquisitions, burning folks at the stake, sexual abuse to minors by Catholic clergy, blatant blashemy against God and defying Scripture are things that these contributors to Christianity did and they are proudly protested even to this day thank God.

It’s good to see that you protest the same faults and failings within Protestantism with the same fervour!..or maybe not!

You do not, because you are biased against Catholicism and protesting against Protestants doesn’t really “mean” much…because there is an ‘expectancy’ of their failings! Why? Because, somehow, they are not held to the same level as Catholics! Why? Because The Church teaches and HOLDS to the highest morals for the whole world and when Her members fall…they fall from a ‘greater’ height!

Every charge in your post is a thousand-fold within Protestantism every decade, yet not newsworthy beyond locality, for that very reason.

I do not deny the fallen members of The Church for She is full of sinners trying their best to run their race!..but you really ought to rethink your biases.

Oppression of Rome?!! You of course refer to The Roman Catholic Church!

Newsflash! She is still the same now as She was then! What she does is define matters of faith, conclusively, absolutely!..then those who do not like it or disagree, leave or refuse to submit and choose to remain in protest; right about there, is where you live, at the moment.

 

[mmmcounts]

Amen to that. Thank you for your insightful post here. I couldn’t agree more that Calvin, Luther, Bonhoffer and so many other Protestants have contributed so much in the way of Christianity. It’s just a damned shame that these folks are insulted and demeaned in such a horrible manner here by over zealous snarky self righteous folks like Randy Carson that are hell bent (AND I MEAN IT LITERALLY) on making another “We are better than you are” statement.

I don’t believe Randy thinks he’s better than anyone else. However, it’s been his experience as a Protestant turned Catholic that Catholicism is far better than Protestantism in every way. I think that’s what he was trying to communicate with this thread, but…well, I don’t think an attempt to demonstrate the worthlessness and bankruptcy of Protestantism was such a great place to start. I’m sure he’ll come back to this thread and look at it every once in awhile, and I suspect that he will come to the conclusion that when he started this thread and thought it was a good idea, that was not his best moment.

For the most part, though, Randy has really good moments. This kind of thing is the exception, not the rule. I don’t think he’s self-righteous and he makes a consistent effort to avoid being snarky. This one just happened to be a not-so-great choice. He’s had this type of attitude toward Protestantism ever since some Catholic managed to convince him that Protestantism was worthless and he should leave it- which is, imo, one of the most unfortunate ways to convert/revert in either direction- but he’s usually doesn’t make that so readily apparent.

A couple of recommendations for you, Randy. The first is an explanation followed by a discussion involving statements from Francis Beckwith and whoever happens to comment on this page.
insidecatholic.com/Joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4911&Itemid=48
Beckwith went from Catholic to Evangelical to Catholic and now defends calling himself both Evangelical and Catholic. You may be able to learn something from his appreciation for what he most recently left behind.
This web.mac.com/jayscottnewman/Site/Evangelical_Catholicism.html contains a bit more detail from Beckwith.

This second link has to do with Chris Castaldo, a former Catholic who became an Evangelical. He, too, shows a great deal of appreciation for what he left behind.
chriscastaldo.com/endorsements.php
You may notice that Beckwith recommends this book. It’s highly unusual to see a former Evangelical turned Catholic giving a ringing endorsement for a book (even if tempered by acknowledgment of noteworthy disagreement) written by a former Catholic turned Evangelical. This is the kind of thing you should seek to emulate rather than scorn.
This jimhamilton.wordpress.com/2009/11/18/chris-castaldos-holy-ground/ contains a bit more detail on Castaldo’s book.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So far, one of the best (and most honest) posts here. It WAS a set up all along, and I was trusting enough to play along. That was a mistake.

Good words, qui est ce.

Please demonstrate where I have sprung the trap after setting it up.

Thank you.

 

[mmmcounts]

The amusing bit is where The Catholic Church is often accused of being man-made when so many, as yourself, find credence in the musing of men, like Calvin, Luther, Bonhoffer, et al.

Are you kidding me Deconi. Randy Carson asked for examples of theological contributions that Protestants have made.

Their only contributions, if you can call it that, is that their opinions took root among the multitudes who had not heard of Christ, but also became an attractive alternative to those who dissented against His Church!

There is a sense in which non-Christians have a variety of ways to practice Christianity if they choose to go that route; however, there’s also a sense in which the message of the Gospel is the same thing whether you’re Catholic or non-Catholic.

The fact remains that protestant theology cannot contribute anything to The Church, because their starting premise is to ‘protest’ and/or ‘critique’ an aspect of Catholicism.

For the Evangelical Christian, I don’t think that’s necessarily the starting point. And even if it were (as it was with the early Reformers), I don’t think a rejection of some of the peculiarities introduced to Christ’s Truth by Latin Christianity disqualifies a person from being able to contribute anything. There’s no compelling reason to think a person must follow the Latin Way and that no contributions are of any value outside it.