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jmtosh
Guest
The Truth is in the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Holy Scriptures.
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pismopal
Guest
There are no theological contributions to make are there? The deposit of faith has been established and one can either embrace that or blow in the wind, as some do. I said some, not all. I am not blowing in the wind anymore as I came home…you can to.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
which the unlearned can distort for their own distruction. i am waiting for the answer to my question. i know you guys have the habit of doing a lot of talking but nothing to substantiate what you say.
the Scriptures are Sacred and True. now point out to me the passage in Scriptures where you found that the Church is invisible just like you said? and also show to me after the Apostles who else said that the Church is invisible?
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jmtosh
Guest
The Church is the body of Christ. Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church as witnessed by the Epistles of the Apostle Paul. In the Gospel according to Luke Chapter 17 verse 20, 21 the Pharisees demanded of Christ when the kingdom of God should come. The Lord answered them “The kingdom of God does not come with observation. Neither shall they say Look there or Look there! For, see the kingdom of God is within you.”
In Ephesians chapter 5 and verses 31 and 32 the Apostle Paul compares the joining of a man and woman in marriage as being one flesh. This is a great mystery : but Ispeak of Christ and the Church.
In the Epistle to the Galatians hapter 4 verses 25 & 26 St. Paul says that the Jerusalem that now is is in bodage (to the law) with her children but the Jerusalem that is above is free which is the mother of us all.
In Galatians 3:26 For you are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.
In Hebrews 12:22 & 23: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of ust men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than Abel’s.
In the Apocalypse chapter 21 we see the new Jerusalem coming down to earth rom heaven adorned as a bride for her husband.
St. Peter says in 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 5 : You also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to Godby Christ Jesus.
As you said look for Truth where it is not where you think it is! What youi call nonsense
is recorded history.
In Ephesians chapter 5 and verses 31 and 32 the Apostle Paul compares the joining of a man and woman in marriage as being one flesh. This is a great mystery : but Ispeak of Christ and the Church.
In the Epistle to the Galatians hapter 4 verses 25 & 26 St. Paul says that the Jerusalem that now is is in bodage (to the law) with her children but the Jerusalem that is above is free which is the mother of us all.
In Galatians 3:26 For you are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.
In Hebrews 12:22 & 23: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of ust men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than Abel’s.
In the Apocalypse chapter 21 we see the new Jerusalem coming down to earth rom heaven adorned as a bride for her husband.
St. Peter says in 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 5 : You also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to Godby Christ Jesus.
As you said look for Truth where it is not where you think it is! What youi call nonsense
is recorded history.
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jmtosh
Guest
Wherever Christian believers are gathered is the Church. It is a gathering or congregation of believers. It is not a building or an institution that can be pointed out and said that is the church. It is a mytical fellwship of Christ’s body with those in heaven and on earth.
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jmtosh
Guest
Thevery fact that you say to me “you guys” this and Protestants that shows your hostility. In fact the cynical question that started this thread is illustrative of that. You may think that you have a fair picture of who I am and what I believe but I have experienced lot of narrow mindedness among you guys!
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wisdomseeker
Guest
and where is the passage that Jesus says that the Church is invisible? i am still waiting.The Church is the body of Christ. Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church as witnessed by the Epistles of the Apostle Paul. In the Gospel according to Luke Chapter 17 verse 20, 21 the Pharisees demanded of Christ when the kingdom of God should come. The Lord answered them “The kingdom of God does not come with observation. Neither shall they say Look there or Look there! For, see the kingdom of God is within you.”
In Ephesians chapter 5 and verses 31 and 32 the Apostle Paul compares the joining of a man and woman in marriage as being one flesh. This is a great mystery : but Ispeak of Christ and the Church.
In the Epistle to the Galatians hapter 4 verses 25 & 26 St. Paul says that the Jerusalem that now is is in bodage (to the law) with her children but the Jerusalem that is above is free which is the mother of us all.
In Galatians 3:26 For you are all the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.
In Hebrews 12:22 & 23: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of ust men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than Abel’s.
In the Apocalypse chapter 21 we see the new Jerusalem coming down to earth rom heaven adorned as a bride for her husband.
St. Peter says in 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 5 : You also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to Godby Christ Jesus.
As you said look for Truth where it is not where you think it is! What youi call nonsense
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wisdomseeker
Guest
where is that in the Bible? show me where Jesus says this?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
i am still waiting for your answer. show me the passage in the Bible that says that the Church is invisible. please.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
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jmtosh
Guest
Hi,
Sorry I had to go out for an hour or so.
The fact that Christ said the Kingdom of God does not come with observation but is within you. The fact that Peter said all believers are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood to offer acceptable spiritual sacrifices to God, the fact that we are born of Jerusalem which is ove (Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker is God) taht we are come to Mount Zion, the Jerusalem above, etc shows that the Universal Church of Christ and His mystical body is invisible. I should say it is visible as well as invisible as it is visible when believers congregate because it is manifested in them. For that I apologise. Yet it is not a building or a location or visible in a static sense. One cannot say there is the church or here but rather you are the Church or we are the Church.
Sorry I had to go out for an hour or so.
The fact that Christ said the Kingdom of God does not come with observation but is within you. The fact that Peter said all believers are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood to offer acceptable spiritual sacrifices to God, the fact that we are born of Jerusalem which is ove (Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker is God) taht we are come to Mount Zion, the Jerusalem above, etc shows that the Universal Church of Christ and His mystical body is invisible. I should say it is visible as well as invisible as it is visible when believers congregate because it is manifested in them. For that I apologise. Yet it is not a building or a location or visible in a static sense. One cannot say there is the church or here but rather you are the Church or we are the Church.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Sorry, that is not an answer to my question. i am waiting for you to tell me where in the Bible Jesus says that the Church is invisible. are you unable to do so?
i think you are confused here. i did not ask for your enterpretation of Scriptures, i asked for you to show me in the Bible the passage that Jesus says that the Church is invisible. i am waiting, i am patient.
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jmtosh
Guest
Besides what I quoted in supra:
In Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name , there am I in the midst of them. Ephesians 4:15 but speakng the truth in love, may grow up into Him in allthins,which is the Head, even Christ: from whom the whole buildng fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplies , according to the effectual working in the measure of every part , makes increase of the body to the edifying of itself in love.
Christ spoke of His body as a temple - 1 Cor 3:16 Do you (plural) not know that you (plural are the temple of God?
1 Cor 3:17 For the temple of God is Holy which temple you (plural) are.
2 Cor 6:16 For you (plural) are the templeof the living God.
Eph 2:19-22 Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners but fellow citizens with the saints and of the household of God; and are built upon he foundation of Apostles and prophets , Jesus Christ Himself beig the chief cornerstone: in whom alll the building itly framed together grows into a holy temple in the Lord:in whom you are also builded together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.
Church = Greek Ecclesia - Congregation, gathering, assembly.
Ephesians 5:3 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh but nourishes and cherishes it evn as the Lord the Church for we are members of His body, of His flesh of His bones.
1 Peter 2; 9 But you (plural) are a chsen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvellous light.
Colossians 1:26 and He is the Head of the body the Church…
Unto Him that loved us and washed us from ur sins in His own blood and has made us kings and priests to God and His Father; to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever . AMEN. The Priesthood of all believers. Rev 1:5b
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jmtosh
Guest
It is not explicitlly stated in scripture that the ***Universal ***Church is invisible but it may be inferred that it is invisible. I have already conceded above that I meant it was not a locale or institution but is Christ’s body of believers as I have further elaborated citing scriptures to this effect. Locally the Church is visible as the congregation of believers.
The scriptures do not explicitly state that the church is visible either but it can be seen in the members of a congragation.
The scriptures do not explicitly state that the church is visible either but it can be seen in the members of a congragation.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
I guess you are not going to provide what i ask for, are you?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
again, i have not asked you for your enterpretation of Scriptures. i asked for specific Passage of the Bible. which you cannot provide because there is none. now, i am waiting for the answers to my other questions. again, not your enterpretation.
where did you learn that the Church is insivible?
show where the Apostles tought that the Church is invisible.
show me witnesses of the early Christians in which they said that the Church is invisible.
show Councils of the early Church stating that the Church is invisible. i would think that this would be an important subject in the early Church, dont you think? this would settle all the dissagreement from the beginning, dont you think? this would give free pass to everyone to believe whatever they want.
i am waiting.
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jmtosh
Guest
I have told you that Christ does not say “the Church is invisible” I have conceded this twicw - would you like me to say it a third time? Did you even take the trouble to read he other questions you fired off that I have answered and that clarify what I meant. I originally said that the Universal Church is invisible and so it is - can you see Mount Zion? Can you see an innumerable company of angels/ can you see a spiritual tempe can you see Jerusalem above and the spirits of just men made perfect - not with pysical eyes you can’t!
I also conceded (and here it is a third time!) THAT IT IS VISIBLE IN THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY OF BELIEVERS WHICH S EVIDENT FROM THE SCRIPTURES I HAVE CITED. The Universal Church of which Christ is the Head is therefore invisible (Christ Himself, spirits of just men made perfect, angels, God the Judge of all and visible in us.
I also conceded (and here it is a third time!) THAT IT IS VISIBLE IN THE LOCAL ASSEMBLY OF BELIEVERS WHICH S EVIDENT FROM THE SCRIPTURES I HAVE CITED. The Universal Church of which Christ is the Head is therefore invisible (Christ Himself, spirits of just men made perfect, angels, God the Judge of all and visible in us.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Ok. you said that Jesus is the Head of the invisible Church but not the visible Church. correct?
where did you get that from? did you come up with this conclusion on your own?
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jmtosh
Guest
No - I did not say that. Christ is Head of both the invisible and visible Church.
I have cited scripture showing that Christ is Head of the body, the Church which is us as well as the Church in heaven.
My point is this - Christ said in Luke 17 vs 20-23 that the kingdom of God does not comwith observation (i.e. it is invisible) You can’t say there it is or here it is. But the Kingdom ofv God is within you.
Principally the Church is Christ’s faithful believers. Can I see that? Yes. It is manifested in the assembly of local believers. But can I go to the building in which they meet and say this is the Church? No I can’t because the believers themselves are the building of God.
Am I able to go through the congregation and say this man and that one are in the kingdom? There may be fruit in thier lives that testify to that but in every instance I cannot tell who are wheat and who are tares as only God sees their hearts. Because the Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom. Christ said His Kingdom was not of this world. The meeting of the faithful is that aspect of the Church that is visible. The Church as a Universal dominion ruled by God and by Jesus Christ is therefore invisible and mystical and visible. That is my understanding from my reading of the scriptures.
I have cited scripture showing that Christ is Head of the body, the Church which is us as well as the Church in heaven.
My point is this - Christ said in Luke 17 vs 20-23 that the kingdom of God does not comwith observation (i.e. it is invisible) You can’t say there it is or here it is. But the Kingdom ofv God is within you.
Principally the Church is Christ’s faithful believers. Can I see that? Yes. It is manifested in the assembly of local believers. But can I go to the building in which they meet and say this is the Church? No I can’t because the believers themselves are the building of God.
Am I able to go through the congregation and say this man and that one are in the kingdom? There may be fruit in thier lives that testify to that but in every instance I cannot tell who are wheat and who are tares as only God sees their hearts. Because the Kingdom of God is a spiritual Kingdom. Christ said His Kingdom was not of this world. The meeting of the faithful is that aspect of the Church that is visible. The Church as a Universal dominion ruled by God and by Jesus Christ is therefore invisible and mystical and visible. That is my understanding from my reading of the scriptures.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
ok, first you said that the Church was invisible and there is no visible Church and now you say that the Church is also visible. you also said that Jesus is the Head of the visible Church. and where is the visible Church? can you show me?
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