What to do? Very lost

[TheRealJuliane]

I will pray for you.

First of all, depression is an illness, sometimes when people are depressed they are genuinely not in control of the things they do or the choices they make. She may genuinely want to be faithful, but just be too weak to resist other desires. The first thing that has to happen is she has to seek treatment, and you have to provide every encouragement for her to do that. If you genuinely think your wife is an immediate risk to herself or the kids, e.g. if she describes a particular suicide method or seems to be stockpiling pills/buys a gun, etc. then you have an obligation to call 911 and get her to emergency psychiatric help.

The second thing is you need to decide what you want for your life and your children. If you stay, you need to support your wife, pray for her, forgive her when she falls, and fit your life around putting your wife first, even when things are extremely difficult. It will be hard, and it may be hard for decades. It may have an effect on the kids, but the effect of having a faithful Catholic father who models truly unconditional love for their mother is also not to be discounted. If you leave, you ought to know that cheating during your engagement would be pretty powerful evidence before an annulment tribunal, so you may genuinely be able to get yourself free of this bond [DISCLAIMER: I’m not a canon lawyer, and have never been through an annulment], but then I don’t think that’s what you want, and not only because you’ll have to look after the kids. After many years of marriage, after giving you children and giving up her own career goals to look after them, I think you know that, in spite of her illness, your wife wants to love you, and you want to love her. You need to make a choice, to stay no-matter what, or to go and do everything to cut loose. I really don’t think being ‘married but separated’ is a great idea, unless as a temporary measure to protect the children. Whatever the choice, you are free, only do what you do because of love and commit it to God in prayer.

Sorry, not true. If the woman is psychotic, maybe she’s not in control of the things she does. Depression does not cause people to cheat on their spouses. In fact if she truly is depressed, she’d have a hard time just getting out of bed, let alone taking all the time and effort to meet someone on line, carry on a virtual affair and then meet him and make it a real affair. I’ve suffered with chronic depression for a long time now and have read and studied a lot, in my effort to understand and be well. Please don’t keep spreading the idea that being depressed can cause adultery. It is a choice, always, to cheat and keep cheating, to lie and keep lying.

#2 - if his wife wants to love him, she has a twisted way of showing it. To the contrary, she is LYING to him and cheating on him, I do not believe that to be loving in any way.

 

[vsedriver]

I know you mean well, but depression does not involve seeking out extramarital affairs. That is a moral failure, not to be connected with any depression she might have suffered.

OP, you don’t have a wife and mother for your kids - as you said, she’s like a rebellious teenager lying and sneaking around behind your back. Get her out of there, it will be a relief. The threat of suicide is either real or it’s not, but in either case, you’re not responsible for that. You can offer psychiatric help but it would be up to her to accept it. If she wanted to get well, she would have already sought treatment.

I am so sorry you are going through this. Don’t hesitate to go and speak to your priest. Her choices are immoral.

bad behavior can be a result of depression. Sometimes it is a means of self punishment. Although it might look like his wife is having a gay old time she may in fact be deliberately destroying what should be her happy life.

Never, ever dismiss a threat of suicide. Make an appointment for her and take her. If she refuses to go, tell her you will inform the police of her next threat and they will take her forcibly for medical treatment.

Rule out all medical and mental issues and then insist on marriage counselling.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

bad behavior can be a result of depression. Sometimes it is a means of self punishment. Although it might look like his wife is having a gay old time she may in fact be deliberately destroying what should be her happy life.

Never, ever dismiss a threat of suicide. Make an appointment for her and take her. If she refuses to go, tell her you will inform the police of her next threat and they will take her forcibly for medical treatment.

Rule out all medical and mental issues and then insist on marriage counselling.

I agree with this part. He should have her held for 72 hours because of the children. And then insist upon counseling and treatment for her.

Dear OP, you never mentioned that your wife has had any sort of treatment for what she terms her depression. Is she taking anti-depressants, has she seen a therapist? Or does that diagnosis give her the freedom she needs to carry on with what she wants to do? Just asking.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

bad behavior can be a result of depression. Sometimes it is a means of self punishment. Although it might look like his wife is having a gay old time she may in fact be deliberately destroying what should be her happy life.

Absolutely.

Never, ever dismiss a threat of suicide. Make an appointment for her and take her. If she refuses to go, tell her you will inform the police of her next threat and they will take her forcibly for medical treatment.

I would add that anyone in the US facing an involuntary committal should be informed that - unlike a voluntary committal - an involuntary one becomes part of a person’s legal background like an arrest or felony conviction. An involuntary committal has serious reprecussions when in comes to employment background checks and owning firearms. While this might not seem like a big deal now, it might be a barrier for employment or entry into entire careers at some point in her future.

Rule out all medical and mental issues and then insist on marriage counselling.

I would argue that all three could be happening at the same time. Medical testing alone can tak months, and the OP’s marriage doesn’t sound like it has months to wait.

Luna

 

[monicabay]

I know you mean well, but depression does not involve seeking out extramarital affairs. That is a moral failure, not to be connected with any depression she might have suffered.

OP, you don’t have a wife and mother for your kids - as you said, she’s like a rebellious teenager lying and sneaking around behind your back. Get her out of there, it will be a relief. The threat of suicide is either real or it’s not, but in either case, you’re not responsible for that. You can offer psychiatric help but it would be up to her to accept it. If she wanted to get well, she would have already sought treatment.

I am so sorry you are going through this. Don’t hesitate to go and speak to your priest. Her choices are immoral.

I beg to differ. Depression can manifest itself in many ways. This woman may be very depressed, and may be looking to fill a painful hole. If a depressed woman can kill her kids, she sure can have an affair. I had a similar event, I was like the OP.

None the less, OP heeds to find a good attorney and hopefully get his wife help. If she refuses, its time for OP to get his own therapist and attorney.

So sorry. It hurts now, I know, but you will be ok, Keep the faith! God is good!

 

[Marybeloved]

I’m thinking that sounds a lot more like Borderline if anything. I have chronic depression and never once, while depressed, have I been tempted to find an on-line adulterous affair and go have sex.

My thoughts exactly. I suffered from depression in my late teens and all I remember is that I lost that thing that made the ordinary everyday things seem meaningful, and I really had no motivation for the ordinary everyday pursuits including friendships and relationships of all kinds, and was just mentally in a black hole that I could see and feel helpless to pull away from it (Thank God for his Mother!).

Could be boderline, (Which is like a roller coaster between depression and hyper-emotion) or some other dis-order/problem, or could simply be a selfish person with no character- a spiritual problem, in other words. which is really between her and her maker.

I can only offer the OP my prayers and advice only that he develops a deep devotion to St. Joseph.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I beg to differ. Depression can manifest itself in many ways. This woman may be very depressed, and may be looking to fill a painful hole. If a depressed woman can kill her kids, she sure can have an affair. I had a similar event, I was like the OP.

None the less, OP heeds to find a good attorney and hopefully get his wife help. If she refuses, its time for OP to get his own therapist and attorney.

So sorry. It hurts now, I know, but you will be ok, Keep the faith! God is good!

I will concede the point for now. I am more concerned about the OP and especially the children than his wife.

#1. Please make sure your children are safe. Do not leave them alone with your wife under any circumstances. She has mentioned suicide. Many moms who hurt their kids have done the same thing.

#2. She needs treatment but if she refuses, you cannot expose yourself and the kids to the danger any longer. You must protect the children, as you seem to already recognize.

#3. Go see your priest ASAP.

#4. Get a lawyer ASAP.

#5. See a counselor, I would recommend that each of you see someone separately and later on, one person together.

 

[King_Lazy]

#2 - if his wife wants to love him, she has a twisted way of showing it. To the contrary, she is LYING to him and cheating on him, I do not believe that to be loving in any way.

That may well be true. I know that my mother held my step-father in absolute contempt, despite his attempts at making things work. Her hatred seemed to intensify when he tried to do the right thing; it’s as though it made her feel powerful, and she seems to feed off putting other people down. She would sometimes appear to show good will, but it was entirely a manipulative means to an end.

Don’t get me wrong - I love my mother - but she can be knowingly, willingly, extremely malevolent to people. Let’s face it, not all people are angels, and some people are selfish, or worse, positively enjoy doing bad things to others. I know that showing my mother sympathy is a mistake, because she will exploit it, so I am cautious about whitewashing OP’s wife if she falls under the same category of person.

 

[fm1982]

Thank you for all the responses! It is always nice to get any sort of support and prayers are also appreciated.

Many comments have referenced treatment for her. I can say that she is in counselling, both individual and a post-partum group (this is not post-partum, rather a full blown depression that started before the baby was born). She has gone to the doctor, is on her second anti-depressant - the first didn’t work and was just referred to a psychologist. I don’t know how long the referral takes.

The treatment does not seem to be working very well, in fact it seems like she comes back from counselling worse off than before she goes. I have suggested more intensive counselling which she gives lip service to, but will not commit to.

I have been going to my own Catholic counsellor. She has been helping me through this, but noticed a significant difference in how I was between last week and this week. After the conversation I had with my wife after the first round with the current guy (“just making out”), I was hopeful that we had turned a corner. The counsellor mentioned to me today how much concern I had for her last week and she was upset that things had been derailed so badly, so quickly after last week’s breakthrough. She was also of the opinion that I should probably try to get things set up prior to any reaction to this situation. She also suggested that I allow some of the anger to cool down, which knowing myself the anger will be there in a month or two, but I’ll be able to react more calmly.

The counsellor, with training in counselling depressed people, told me that people with depression do not lose their moral compass, they still know right from wrong, and in people with serious depression, they will often not even have the motivation to do anything, never mind orchestrating an affair, new online accounts, etc.

My job also affords me the month of July off, so my great hope is that I can hold on until then, or as close to then as possible, so that the transition will be easier. I think the transition on my kids will be a lot easier if they are spending all day, every day with me, rather than having a split then being shipped off to school or babysitters.

Divorce is not the first option, but this is the third time she has betrayed my trust. Even after the last time just under 2 weeks ago, I started to trust a lot more and had stopped “snooping” through her email. It just happened that she had left a Facebook profile under a different name open and the temptation to look was too much to avoid. I learned of this round through that. Whether some people have issues or not with privacy and what not, this can be boiled down to health concerns - if she sleeps around there are many diseases that could be transmitted to me without my knowledge. I’d rather not learn about an affair when I am being diagnosed with an STD or worse (HIV). I don’t want to have to spend time playing detective or spy with all her actions throughout the day, it’s exhausting and just one more thing on my plate.

I guess it comes down to the fact that she will obviously continue until there are serious consequences. Because I didn’t ask for a pound of flesh the last time she betrayed me, I guess she feels like it’s ok. It is like the kid at school who doesn’t care how many times they are spoken to, the only time they change their behaviour is when they are punished. I keep reminding myself “forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us”, “forgive your brother 70 times 7 times” etc., but when is enough enough and when do you remove yourself from the situation?

Another poster mentioned that it could be character (sorry it’s after midnight here and I’m exhausted after another long day, so I can’t look back to reference everyone). She has turned her back on the Church after only last year participating in weekly prayer/learning sessions in our Parish and starting up a Mom/Tot group in our Parish. She has claimed that she doesn’t care anymore. This past Saturday, when she “asked” me if she could go to the gym on Sunday morning, I said no, Sunday is our family time, we have a “big” family breakfast, then head off to Mass together. Her response was “you can’t impose your values on me” and “I can’t stand being around the kids, they overwhelm me”. Her actions are all very self centred and selfish. She sat at the breakfast table on Sunday morning pouting worse than a little child, making everyone else miserable, so I told her to do whatever she wanted and all of a sudden she was human as she was bolting out the door. That left me dressing and packing up the 4 kids to take to Mass, ironically the homily was about dying to yourself and serving your family…at least the parts I was able to hear clearly.

She has mentioned that she knows she is engaging in self destructive behaviour. Reading between the lines, she is challenging me to throw her out, so that suicide becomes easier. The more I think about it, the more I am willing to call her bluff on this one.

 

[fm1982]

Grandparents, on both sides, are uninterested in helping. My parents went so far as challenging my grandmother’s will, that left everything to me, after they stole everything that was supposed to go to me and my children. They had no problem issuing threats, demanding security deposits for legal costs (knowing I have no money), flaunting the fact that they could bully me because they have literally millions of dollars to fight me in court, etc. Needless to say, for whatever reason they decided to torch that bridge rather than talking. In fact, at my grandmother’s funeral, when the priest gave me the blessed crucifix off the casket, I offered it to my mother as a sign of peace, she took it and lifted her arm to throw it into the hole but was stopped by someone, then took off. Interestingly enough, all my inlaws (parents and brothers) are also “overwhelmed” by the children and can’t be around them unless a parent (usually me) is around to take over when they are done. I do have some good friends who are willing to help out and have helped out in the past.

Anyways, I will be talking to child services (who have been called in twice due to her behaviour with the kids) about this in my monthly conversation with them. I do wonder whether it is a child protection issue when she is taking a 4 month old baby into the place where she is committing adultery (I just made this connection today and realized how disgusting that is). I did think about how things could get very dangerous if his wife were to walk into that kind of situation with no prior knowledge. Would she react violently and could that cause unintended harm to my baby? That thought alone sends my blood into a serious boil. In a way, it would be easier if they did my dirty work and removed her, then custody would automatically be mine with no questions asked - even though she has said she wouldn’t fight, I don’t know if I can trust that, for obvious good reason.

I am having a hard time understanding the why. We have four beautiful, healthy, intelligent, articulate, loving, affectionate children. While our house is not the largest, it fits us all comfortably enough and affords us the luxury of a stay at home parent in an area where that is a rarity. She has the freedom to do what she likes, when she wants to. Through her illness, we have been eating hundreds of extra dollars per month that we don’t really have to make sure we had the daycare she needed for the kids. I am a more than willing contributor to maintaining the house and taking care of the kids. She is willing to throw this all away for some sex with a man of obvious questionable character? It makes absolutely no rational sense whatsoever.

This is much longer and much more than I intended to write into this late hour. Thank you again for all of your supportive comments and prayers.

 

[Marybeloved]

Grandparents, on both sides, are uninterested in helping. My parents went so far as challenging my grandmother’s will, that left everything to me, after they stole everything that was supposed to go to me and my children. They had no problem issuing threats, demanding security deposits for legal costs (knowing I have no money), flaunting the fact that they could bully me because they have literally millions of dollars to fight me in court, etc. Needless to say, for whatever reason they decided to torch that bridge rather than talking. In fact, at my grandmother’s funeral, when the priest gave me the blessed crucifix off the casket, I offered it to my mother as a sign of peace, she took it and lifted her arm to throw it into the hole but was stopped by someone, then took off. Interestingly enough, all my inlaws (parents and brothers) are also “overwhelmed” by the children and can’t be around them unless a parent (usually me) is around to take over when they are done. I do have some good friends who are willing to help out and have helped out in the past.

Anyways, I will be talking to child services (who have been called in twice due to her behaviour with the kids) about this in my monthly conversation with them. I do wonder whether it is a child protection issue when she is taking a 4 month old baby into the place where she is committing adultery (I just made this connection today and realized how disgusting that is). I did think about how things could get very dangerous if his wife were to walk into that kind of situation with no prior knowledge. Would she react violently and could that cause unintended harm to my baby? That thought alone sends my blood into a serious boil. In a way, it would be easier if they did my dirty work and removed her, then custody would automatically be mine with no questions asked - even though she has said she wouldn’t fight, I don’t know if I can trust that, for obvious good reason.

I am having a hard time understanding the why. We have four beautiful, healthy, intelligent, articulate, loving, affectionate children. While our house is not the largest, it fits us all comfortably enough and affords us the luxury of a stay at home parent in an area where that is a rarity. She has the freedom to do what she likes, when she wants to. Through her illness, we have been eating hundreds of extra dollars per month that we don’t really have to make sure we had the daycare she needed for the kids. I am a more than willing contributor to maintaining the house and taking care of the kids. She is willing to throw this all away for some sex with a man of obvious questionable character? It makes absolutely no rational sense whatsoever.

This is much longer and much more than I intended to write into this late hour. Thank you again for all of your supportive comments and prayers.

OP, it seems our Lord has given you a very heavy cross to bear. Your situation seems so difficult from where I’m sitting, But with God, nothing is impossible, and we get grace sufficient for each situation, even those as painful and difficult as this one.

Do you have a spiritual Director? I know you mentioned a Catholic counsellor- Does she serve more in a professional counselling capacity or does she also give guidance on the spiritual journey? If not, I’d really pray to Jesus for one, and look around to see if I can find a good priest or religious who can take up this role. Sometimes God seems to allow too much, if you know what I mean- Much more than we can handle, so that he can force us to give up everything to him and rely on him with a more childlike trust as we don’t know much ourselves. That’s how I make sense of difficulties in life that seem overwhelming.

I wonder, OP, have you ever personally consecrated yourself or your family to God through one of the beautiful consecrations in the Church’s spiritual tradition? St. Louis de Monteforte’s Consecration to Jesus through Mary comes to mind. Whatever you decide to do, just try and see that it’s not based on a totally earthly outlook, but the supernatural one as well. I’m sure St. Joseph is a great friend to husbands like you who are trying to do the right thing through impossible circumstances. I offer you my prayers (Hey, why not seek prayers thro’ the prayer intentions forum at CAF that the Lord will grant you supernatural wisdom and make the way forward clear to you?) Someone once taught me to say the aspiration of the blind man to Jesus in the Gospels: *Lord, that I may see…
*
Peace.

 

[Tietjen]

I keep reminding myself “forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us”, “forgive your brother 70 times 7 times” etc., but when is enough enough and when do you remove yourself from the situation?

Forgiveness doesn’t mean that consequences are withheld. When our sins are forgiven in Confession, that doesn’t mean that we no longer have temporal consequences to face.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

The counsellor, with training in counselling depressed people, told me that people with depression do not lose their moral compass, they still know right from wrong, and in people with serious depression, they will often not even have the motivation to do anything, never mind orchestrating an affair, new online accounts, etc.

The counselor is 100% correct. Unless there are other things going on such as psychosis or borderline personality disorder, someone who is seriously depressed will not act like your wife. You mentioned how she bolted out the door when you told her she didn’t have to go to Mass. Not the action of someone depressed. Sounds more and more like BPD to me, but of course, I am not a professional, just trying to help you find a reason for this awful behavior.

Were it me, I think I’d spend less time in counseling and more time with a lawyer. You are going to be in pain one way or the other, but taking action to protect your children will help you start to heal inside. It’s one thing if she was repentant. It’s another ball game when she lies repeatedly and continues the affair. All bets are off at that point.

See your priest, and see a lawyer. ASAP.

 

[monicabay]

I will concede the point for now. I am more concerned about the OP and especially the children than his wife.

#1. Please make sure your children are safe. Do not leave them alone with your wife under any circumstances. She has mentioned suicide. Many moms who hurt their kids have done the same thing.

#2. She needs treatment but if she refuses, you cannot expose yourself and the kids to the danger any longer. You must protect the children, as you seem to already recognize.

#3. Go see your priest ASAP.

#4. Get a lawyer ASAP.

#5. See a counselor, I would recommend that each of you see someone separately and later on, one person together.

Thanks! And, as I think about it, I do agree that the behavior is not ok, and you offer good advice.I sure do hope for the best for the whole family.

How sad this society is.

 

[GracedUpon]

OP, if her depression started while she was pregnant, then I would bet it is hormone-related. What was her behavior/moral compass like before the depression hit? Is there any other evidence of her committing adultery earlier in your marriage? I don’t know where you live, but I just read [this article](http://healthland.time.com/2012/03/22/nations-first-postpartum-depression-(name removed by moderator)atient-unit-for-new-moms/#ixzz1prAcYNtk) the other day about a PPD-specific (name removed by moderator)atient center. It would probably be very difficult to get into, since it’s the only one in the country and only has 5 beds, but it could be worth looking into. If not that, then I would seriously suggest seeking out a good naturopathic physician and see what they say. I’ve also seen mothers on these boards recommend “The Mood Cure” by Julia Ross, as it helped them overcome PPD.

I agree that you should absolutely not allow her to be alone with the children. If her PPD is bad enough, she could have psychotic episodes where she could seriously harm your kids. There’s another thread on these forums about a mom who killed herself and her 3 children while her husband was at work, just days after being diagnosed with a mental illness. I’m not generally an advocate of using daycare, but your baby would be safer there than with your mentally unstable wife right now.

I’m not going to advise whether or not you should ask your wife to leave. One thing to consider with that would be the potential for unsupervised visits for her with your kids. Another thing would be that it seems highly likely that, if you were to divorce and seek annulment, a tribunal would declare your marriage null, due to her secret rendezvous during your engagement. I will say that your situation is best discussed with a priest, your counselor, and a good lawyer.

Also, like the PPs mentioned, next time she threatens suicide, call the police if she refuses to get help right then and there. Many people threaten suicide and don’t mean it, but since your wife is so unstable, her behaviors may be unpredictable.

Prayers for you and your family.

 

[King_Lazy]

OP, if her depression started while she was pregnant, then I would bet it is hormone-related. What was her behavior/moral compass like before the depression hit? Is there any other evidence of her committing adultery earlier in your marriage?

I believe OP stated that she had cheated on him during their engagement and that if he had known, he would have reconsidered marrying her.

 

[28562]

You are a better man than I am. That’s really all I can say.

 

[GeorgeLopez]

You are a better man than I am. That’s really all I can say.

I second that.

I would have (explicit) her.

 

[Musician]

I’d kick her butt out of the house ASAP and send her stuff flying after her. No way I’d put up with this ridiculous behavior. File for separation (use a lawyer for EVERYTHING for heaven’s sakes), get her out of your life, and hire a really GOOD live-in housekeeper nanny. It’s worth it.
I had four children very close together and my DH was gone for months at a time during his military career, and then afterward in his new career. These were times that we lived abroad - there was no family to help out. But I handled it fine with the help of a housekeeper/nanny.
You’ll make it. My prayers are with you.

 

[fm1982]

Classic…

I ran into him today and just treated him as if he was a stranger, just saying thanks for holding the door (while carrying 2 of my four children as the other two walked just behind me).

They are talking about it online right now…she says I don’t know anything and that I probably didn’t recognize him - we did meet once before. He’s concerned and she’s lying to the “other” man now too…

P.S. I don’t think I’m so lost anymore. I think I know what I have to do for what’s left of my family’s sake, it’s just timing now. I am praying for the patience to get to where I need to be.