What to do when husband disagrees?

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slick4:
I’ve read many threads here regarding marital chastity, and am wondering if anyone has thoughts/advice on what I might do… My husband and I have used artificial birth control in the past, but in the last year I’ve read and studied much and decided to practice NFP. (Didn’t take any classes, just purchased the book!) I do a lot of searching, reading, talking and am just beginning to understand what it means to truly follow NFP, which we have NOT been doing, as we continue to practice oral sex or withdrawal during fertile times. My husband does not feel we are doing anything wrong! How can I stop sinning myself, while not ruining my marriage?? Any help would be greatly appreciated!
My heart goes out to you in this circumstance. It has been said that NFP makes good marriages better, and brings troubled marriages to deeper understanding. Abstinence tends to bring out our true colors.

The things I can recommend are the aspects of NFP most needed outside the bedroom. What did I just say??!! NFP outside the bedroom?? Yep, NFP outside the bedroom. The three things to focus on in your situation are at the core of NFP. Prayer, communication, and information. That is really what NFP is about.

#1 Pray for your husband. Not just that little prayer we do, that says, “Make his life better,” but the BIG prayer, that sacrificial prayer that only a wife can do. #2 Communicate with your husband. Don’t talk, listen. Hear his fears. Embrace them but don’t judge them. If I know one thing about men it is that they despise being afraid. The only thing worse is being afraid and having their wife view them as weak. #3 Get informed. Learn. Don’t teach until you know. Take the class yourself. Know your own fertility inside and out. You might discover that he isn’t even “in the mood” during fertile times. During those infertile times let him know you are infertile, allow him to grow in trust.

Abandoning contraception is not an overnight change. Embracing NFP is also not overnight. NFP is information. It is the use of that information that can sometimes be difficult. Pray, pray, pray. Conform your will to the will of God and you will be blessed for it. Marriage is a Sacrament of amazing proportions. The grace you receive from your sacrifice flows to your husband simply because you are married.

You will be in my prayers and the prayers of all couples who know what an amazing gift NFP can be to marriage.
 
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vluvski:
Also please know that the Church allows great latitude in how far a couple can go even when they don’t intend to complete the act. A pamplet on just that came with my NFP materials.
It’s not for the faint of heart! :o (or for the people who struggle with pure thoughts)
Can you identify the pamphlet, I have simply not heard of/seen what you describe.
 
Thank you- I really appreciate everyone’s thoughtful words! One point I would like to make is that even if we weren’t concerned with avoiding pregnancy, my husband would still like to practice things like oral sex or mutual masturbation. Therein lies the biggest problem- in order not to sin, I have to say no to this, and the change would be extremely difficult for him. Of course, he can overcome a difficult situation, but in the meantime, our marriage would be a mess! Can we “ease” into this?!
 
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slick4:
Thank you- I really appreciate everyone’s thoughtful words! One point I would like to make is that even if we weren’t concerned with avoiding pregnancy, my husband would still like to practice things like oral sex or mutual masturbation. Therein lies the biggest problem- in order not to sin, I have to say no to this, and the change would be extremely difficult for him. Of course, he can overcome a difficult situation, but in the meantime, our marriage would be a mess! Can we “ease” into this?!
I’m not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that even if you didn’t need to avoid pregnancy that your husband prefers to “finish” outside of you? He doesn’t just want to use oral sex for foreplay but the whole act? Oral sex isn’t a problem if you are using it as foreplay to the marital embrace. Once again, your marriage is probably more of a mess than you think it is. I’m not trying to be mean here but there’s obviously something wrong if your husband simply prefers masturbation over the marital union.
 
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slick4:
Thank you- I really appreciate everyone’s thoughtful words! One point I would like to make is that even if we weren’t concerned with avoiding pregnancy, my husband would still like to practice things like oral sex or mutual masturbation. Therein lies the biggest problem- in order not to sin, I have to say no to this, and the change would be extremely difficult for him. Of course, he can overcome a difficult situation, but in the meantime, our marriage would be a mess! Can we “ease” into this?!
But I think you can do things like oral sex and mutual masturbation as long as the whole endeavor ends in intercourse!

Men can perform oral sex/masturbation on women within the context of an “open to life” marital act.

If I’m wrong I’m sure someone will correct me.
 
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svoboda:
No, but in order to commit a mortal sin a person has to know it’s wrong and consent to it before the fact. Her husband doens’t think it’s wrong, there can be a sin, but not a mortal sin. A person who does what he honestly thinks is okay to do cannot commit a mortal sin.

It’s fine.
That is not true. The criteria are: 1. grave matter, 2. full knowledge, and 3. full consent.

Number 1 is obviously met since all acts of contraception are morally wrong. Full knowledge means that you are aware that it is wrong. If the OP has told her husband it is wrong, he knows and is then consenting to it, it could very well be mortal. Committing mortal since is not based on agreeing that it is wrong.
 
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stadre:
That is not true. The criteria are: 1. grave matter, 2. full knowledge, and 3. full consent.

Number 1 is obviously met since all acts of contraception are morally wrong. Full knowledge means that you are aware that it is wrong. If the OP has told her husband it is wrong, he knows and is then consenting to it, it could very well be mortal. Committing mortal since is not based on agreeing that it is wrong.
But this means that every single atheist who has been told about Catholicism is going to hell. It means that every single person of other religions who knows the teaching of the Church and doesn’t follow it is going to hell.

I think “full knowledge” has to mean more than knowing what the Church teaches. In this age of information, I think everyone more or less knows what the Church teaches.
 
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svoboda:
But this means that every single atheist who has been told about Catholicism is going to hell. It means that every single person of other religions who knows the teaching of the Church and doesn’t follow it is going to hell.

I think “full knowledge” has to mean more than knowing what the Church teaches. In this age of information, I think everyone more or less knows what the Church teaches.
We’re not talking about invincible ignorance here. We’re talking about denial of the Truth. I think her husband would have a hard case for invincible ignorance. Of course, there’s no way for any of us to be sure of his culpablity. That said, does anyone really want to take a chance like that? You seem to be practicing moral relativism which is a heresy. Just because something feels right to someone, doesn’t mean that it isn’t a sin. If he has been told the Church teachings and still rejects them, I’d imagine more often than not, they are culpable for their actions.

The good old Catholic Encyclopedia has an article on this:
newadvent.org/cathen/07648a.htm
 
ccli.org/nfp/basics/advantages.php

I think your husband needs a little more convincing. He’s your partner, not your harem master. In a convenant relationship the greatest thing he can do for you is honor you by wanting to share eternity with you in heaven not leading you into sin.

The link I have provided above is from the couple to couple league, one of the leading proponents and instructors in the NFP methods available. These are the basics and advantages of using this method
 
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bear06:
I’m not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that even if you didn’t need to avoid pregnancy that your husband prefers to “finish” outside of you? He doesn’t just want to use oral sex for foreplay but the whole act? Oral sex isn’t a problem if you are using it as foreplay to the marital embrace. Once again, your marriage is probably more of a mess than you think it is. I’m not trying to be mean here but there’s obviously something wrong if your husband simply prefers masturbation over the marital union.
Yes, sometimes this is more appealing to him. And it doesn’t seem “fair” to him that the woman can be brought to climax in other ways (as long as it is within the context of a completed conjugal act), while the man cannot.

You know, we’re bombarded every day with un-Christian messages claiming that many things are “normal” or even common, and my husband and I have always considered these things within the realm of intimate acts any married couple can perform for and with one another. We had never heard anything to the contrary before now. As I mentioned, I am ready and willing to change, while he is most definitely not!
 
slick4 said:
Yes, sometimes this is more appealing to him. And it doesn’t seem “fair” to him that the woman can be brought to climax in other ways (as long as it is within the context of a completed conjugal act), while the man cannot.
Wow! It’s sad that he can’t look at it from the point of view that he gets to participate in a wonderful union. I’d be curious to know why he finds it more appealing. Is he actually bored completing the marriage act the traditional way? If so, it would seem that he will someday be bored with os too and then what’s next.

You’re quite right about being bombarded. We’ve had our senses quite dulled and we’re always looking for more.
 
I am stunned that complete strangers would dare to declare someone else’s marriage a complete mess and pretend to understand the nature of another couple’s relationship.

I don’t think this forum is the best place for you to receive advice that is tailored to the specific needs of your marriage.

First…you need to find a trusted priest or spiritual advisor to give you individual advice.
Then…you could see if your husband is open to counseling from a priest or professional counselor.

He does not sound like an unusual man - and I’m afraid he is being judged too harshly here when he cannot state his case.
 
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Lorarose:
I am stunned that complete strangers would dare to declare someone else’s marriage a complete mess and pretend to understand the nature of another couple’s relationship.

I don’t think this forum is the best place for you to receive advice that is tailored to the specific needs of your marriage.

First…you need to find a trusted priest or spiritual advisor to give you individual advice.
Then…you could see if your husband is open to counseling from a priest or professional counselor.

He does not sound like an unusual man - and I’m afraid he is being judged too harshly here when he cannot state his case.
I don’t think anyone declared her marriage a complete mess but there may be some underlying issues that are contributing to his unwillingness to even read a book on the subject after his wife has expressed some serious concerns. If one can’t get to the real problem, and I don’t think that his attraction to oral sex and withdrawal is the root of the problem, then it probably won’t get fixed. I think she should look deeper. For his part, I think he needs to figure out what his ultimate goal is. Is he trying to help his wife gain heaven or is he simply trying to receive pleasure. This doesn’t mean he’s evil. Like his wife said, they’ve been bombarded all their lives with bad info. Our society tends to objectify the opposite sex which doesn’t make for good marriages.
 
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slick4:
Yes, sometimes this is more appealing to him. And it doesn’t seem “fair” to him that the woman can be brought to climax in other ways (as long as it is within the context of a completed conjugal act), while the man cannot.
While you might not appreciate my point of view because I left the Church, as far as I know people in the past, including Thomas Aquinas believed that all of the material for a future human being was in the sperm, and that the womb was just a place for it to grow.

With this kind of understanding, it is not surprising that “spilling seed” would be a sin. But of course this understanding is flawed, and sperm are just cells, not potential human beings.

People in the past also did not recognize the unitive aspect of sex, and until Vatican II even the Church did not formally acknowledge it. It was all about procreation in the past.
You know, we’re bombarded every day with un-Christian messages claiming that many things are “normal” or even common, and my husband and I have always considered these things within the realm of intimate acts any married couple can perform for and with one another. We had never heard anything to the contrary before now. As I mentioned, I am ready and willing to change, while he is most definitely not!
Again, something you may not appreciate, but maybe your husband is right. I think the Church’s view of oral sex and mutual masturbation for men is outdated. It is okay to perform oral sex and masturbation on a woman even to climax. It is not dirty or bad.

Why are men different? In my opinion it is the flawed understanding of sperm’s role in the creation of a new life that gives rise to this teaching.

But this is just me speculating, if I’m historically inaccurate I’m sure someone will correct me.

It seems that there have been suggestions that your husband is somehow sinful because he wants pleasure that way. What is wrong with physical pleasure? Pleasure is the reason why sex has a unitive component. If it felt just like rubbing your wrists together, it would have no unitive value. The powerful emotional and physical sensations are great, and it’s natural and normal that your husband wants to experience them. It is not wrong or sinful for a man to perform oral sex on his wife to climax, obviously pleasure as a result of oral sex is not wrong or dirty. What is different in the case of a man?

Spilled sperm. What is spilled sperm, a bunch of cells, they are not human. You could even stay within Catholic openness to life by having intercourse a little while after having oral sex.
 
People in the past also did not recognize the unitive aspect of sex, and until Vatican II even the Church did not formally acknowledge it. It was all about procreation in the past.
Where do you get this stuff? See the footnotes in Humanae Vitae. The sources go back way before Vatican II. The Summa Theologia speaks of the unitive aspect.
Again, something you may not appreciate, but maybe your husband is right. I think the Church’s view of oral sex and mutual masturbation for men is outdated. It is okay to perform oral sex and masturbation on a woman even to climax. It is not dirty or bad.
The Church doesn’t get outdated in her doctrines.
Why are men different? In my opinion it is the flawed understanding of sperm’s role in the creation of a new life that gives rise to this teaching.
Uh, last time I checked, the sperm was pretty essential to new life!
 
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bear06:
Where do you get this stuff? See the footnotes in Humanae Vitae. The sources go back way before Vatican II. The Summa Theologia speaks of the unitive aspect.
Here is something:
This century has seen an ongoing debate within the Church about the ends of marriage. **A traditional understanding presented these ends in a clear hierarchy or order of importance: a “primary” end (procreation) and two
“secondary” ends (mutual help and the remedy for concupiscence). ** Early on in the century a feeling began to emerge that this understanding was too exclusively centered on the procreative function of the marital relationship, while it neglected “personalist” aspects or values also characterizing this relationship, and of which modern times have become
more aware: love between man and woman as the main motive for marrying, the promise of personal happiness or fulfillment that marriage seems to offer, the human values felt to underlie physical sexuality.
The Second Vatican Council incorporated these personalist values into its presentation of marriage. And, as is well known, married personalism is notable in the teaching on marriage of John Paul II. Sexuality and marriage, interpreted in a personalist light, were in fact the theme of a lengthy papal catechesis covering the first years of the present pontificate; and the same presentation has frequently recurred since. Thus it now seems beyond question that a personalist view of marriage has
become firmly established in magisterial teaching.
**Here, in what Pope John Paul II has described as the “last document of the Second Vatican Council,”[1] we are offered a brief formula of the greatest importance, which marks a development and crystallization of the married personalism of Vatican II. ** Particularly to be noted is the progress from
the rather vague conciliar statement about matrimony being endowed with “various” or “other” ends, besides procreation,[2] to the specific enunciation of < ends to marriage, the good of the spouses and the procreation/education of children.
Now this is very telling:

" A traditional understanding presented these ends in a clear hierarchy or order of importance: a “primary” end (procreation) and two “secondary” ends (mutual help and the remedy for concupiscence)."

Procreation as the goal, mutual help and the REMEDY FOR CONCUPISCENCE as the secondary end. It is possible that remedy for concupiscence has something to do with Paul who says in the Bible that those who cannot be chaste let them marry lest they sin.

I think if the Church is given time she will incorporate new understandings about the good and importance of sexual pleasure (just because it is plesurable emotionally and physically) into her teaching on sex and marriage. Natural law dictates that she should, because the primary reason why human beings have sex so often is pleasure. If it was not pleasant, we might have it as a chore only when we wanted babies. We might even be disgusted by it, and there would be no unitive component to sex.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Sex is good. Pleasure is good. Happiness is good. Things like that make life worth living.

Note also how the early “traditional” understnading mentioned nothing about love, intimacy, emotions etc. It is very like the current understanding mentions so little about sexual pleasure. Look around you, sex drives human life (and animal life for that matter). And it does this because of the extremely powerful physical and emotional sensations people experience during sex.

And I think the reason why these sensations are there is evolution. The propagation of the species IS the focus of evolutionary survival, the genes that made sex pleasurable, that made us “lustful”, that made us good at sex are the genes that survived the most. That is why we desire it so much. People who didn’t like sex or were technical about it got outcompeted by people who had lots of sex and left lots of offspring behind.

Guess whose genes we have now? Guess who our ancestors are? People who didn’t have too much sex and didn’t leave too many offspring behind, or people who were crazy about sex, who were driven by sex, and who left behind the greatest number of offspring?

(Of course there is more to it than that, you have to raise the offspring after you have it for your genes to survive. But sex is still a critical part of it.)

Embrace human nature, don’t seek to suppress it. It’s not healthy and I can’t see it leading anywhere good.
 
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slick4:
Yes, sometimes this is more appealing to him. And it doesn’t seem “fair” to him that the woman can be brought to climax in other ways (as long as it is within the context of a completed conjugal act), while the man cannot.

You know, we’re bombarded every day with un-Christian messages claiming that many things are “normal” or even common, and my husband and I have always considered these things within the realm of intimate acts any married couple can perform for and with one another. We had never heard anything to the contrary before now. As I mentioned, I am ready and willing to change, while he is most definitely not!
Wanting to respond to this and currently praying for the best PG-13 description. My husband and I talked about this issue awhile back. He helped me understand the male perspective very well. Years ago in a previous invalid marriage he felt this same way.

Now sex is so incredible because it is ordered. Disordered sex can be very unfulfilling. I will keep praying for the right words and get back to you.
 
I don’t think anyone declared her marriage a complete mess
I stand corrected. Here are your exact words…
Once again, your marriage is probably more of a mess than you think it is
but there may be some underlying issues that are contributing to his unwillingness to even read a book on the subject after his wife has expressed some serious concerns. If one can’t get to the real problem, and I don’t think that his attraction to oral sex and withdrawal is the root of the problem, then it probably won’t get fixed. I think she should look deeper. For his part, I think he needs to figure out what his ultimate goal is. Is he trying to help his wife gain heaven or is he simply trying to receive pleasure. This doesn’t mean he’s evil. Like his wife said, they’ve been bombarded all their lives with bad info. Our society tends to objectify the opposite sex which doesn’t make for good marriages.
Are you a counselor of some sort?
 
slick4:

I only disagree when I’m beyond my wife’s throwing distance. 😃 (couldn’t resist).

Seriously, have you thought of activity only during the infirtile days? I believe that is approved. I’m not familiar with the acronoym, so if it’s one and the same, forgive me.

You know on the other hand there is something to be said about abstinence. We don’t get to see each other daily. Without getting too technical, we find it intensifies the moment, and we are more intimate at that time. It leaves us something to look forward to in anticipation. The wait just needs getting used to.

Andy
 
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slick4:
Thank you- I really appreciate everyone’s thoughtful words! One point I would like to make is that even if we weren’t concerned with avoiding pregnancy, my husband would still like to practice things like oral sex or mutual masturbation. Therein lies the biggest problem- in order not to sin, I have to say no to this, and the change would be extremely difficult for him. Of course, he can overcome a difficult situation, but in the meantime, our marriage would be a mess! Can we “ease” into this?!
Hi Slick,

Instead of focusing on the negative (ie: what you can’t/won’t do), focus on the positive. Tell him, that of all the things life offers the one thing you want most desperately for him is a ticket to heaven. And, as his loving wife, you are committed to living a life of grace in accordance with the will of God, whatever form that may take including activities in the bedroom.

Tell him that you don’t seek to limit him or disappoint him, you simply are trying to help him to grow in holiness as you must hope that he will do for you.

Of all the things that spouses do for each other, the most vital is spiritual support that moves both persons toward everlasting life.

Then pray for him and invite the Holy Spirit into your bedroom.
 
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