What to do when wife won't do/doesn't believe in NFP?

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Ovulation absolutely is a factor. If you don’t ovulate you don’t get pregnant. Let’s look at the pill as an example. For the most part, the function of the pill it to prevent/suppress ovulation. When it fails to do that, a woman can become pregnant even if she takes the pill at the same time every day and does not create any kind of a user error situation. From what I understand, when NFP fails in preventing a pregnancy, it’s almost always a user error (meaning, the couple misinterpreted fertility signs or fudged the rules).
No, ovulation it is NOT a FACTOR in THIS argument. The argument is that NFP is better at preventing pregnancy than artificial birth control. The end result is she is or isn’t pregnant. If something prevents her from ovulating then that’s the method of that ABC and the end result is still that she doesn’t get pregnant. If she does ovulate and doesn’t get pregnant because a condom is used, again she didn’t get pregnant. So, you see, ovulation is a variable, not a factor. The argument is pregnancy prevention not pregancy prevention but just pregnancy prevention. That’s it. So again, please show me studies where it is more effect against PREVENTING pregnancy than NFP as a poster said it was.
 
No, ovulation it is NOT a FACTOR in THIS argument. The argument is that NFP is better at preventing pregnancy than artificial birth control. The end result is she is or isn’t pregnant. If something prevents her from ovulating then that’s the method of that ABC and the end result is still that she doesn’t get pregnant. If she does ovulate and doesn’t get pregnant because a condom is used, again she didn’t get pregnant. So, you see, ovulation is a variable, not a factor. The argument is pregnancy prevention not pregancy prevention but just pregnancy prevention. That’s it. So again, please show me studies where it is more effect against PREVENTING pregnancy than NFP as a poster said it was.
In order to get pregnant one MUST ovulate. If a couple is having sex on a day that is not a fertile day, then they will not get pregnant, no matter what.

This is my point. You have bought into the whole contraception industry. The contraception industry has lied to the world. If a (married) couple is having sex on an *infertile *day, there is absolutely no reason they need a condom or a pill. But the contraception industry counts this day as a *success *in their reported numbers. The condom could have broken, the placebo pill wasn’t taken on time that day, or whatever. The condom, pill, or whatever did nothing. But the contraception industry lies and said it prevented a pregnancy! And furthermore with the pill if it didn’t prevent conception it then aborts the baby and they still call it a success because it prevented a “pregnancy.” No, that is called an abortifacient, not a contraceptive. But that is another lie the contraception industry has perpetuated. They define “pregnancy” as when the embryo attaches to the wall, so when an IUD kills a human being by preventing attachment they call that contraception. All lies.

If you want some non-Catholic, secular, sources go look up “Taking Charge of your Fertility.” That is a charting method of fertility awareness that uses condoms or other barriers during fertility. She is secular and flat out states that since you are only using condoms during fertility, if it fails you *will *become pregnant. There is only one 100% sure way to prevent conception. Don’t have sex when you are fertile.
 
Ditto little deb

Noclevername, its really really really simple. Again, if the woman isn’t ovulating, she couldn’t get pregnant, Therefore the condom did nothing in preventing it…therefore the statistic that it did is a lie.
 
Ditto little deb

Noclevername, its really really really simple. Again, if the woman isn’t ovulating, she couldn’t get pregnant, Therefore the condom did nothing in preventing it…therefore the statistic that it did is a lie.
They test all methods of preventing pregnancy the same way. After one year of use, how many couples will unintentionally get pregnant. Some methods of testing also accommodate for user error. So the statistics collected will show how many people become pregnant because the method failed to work properly, and perhaps also how many failed because of improper use (which can be related to how difficult the method is to use.)

In both an NFP and an ABC random controlled group, a similar % of woman should be normally fertile/healthy etc.

So I don’t see how the fact that the woman ovulated is relevant in this sense at all. Stats on birth control effectiveness are interested in the number of people who fail to achieve the objective of preventing pregnancy.

If they are testing NFP differently than ABC is tested, then honestly the stats aren’t worth the paper they are printed on, which is very annoying to me.
 
They test all methods of preventing pregnancy the same way. After one year of use, how many couples will unintentionally get pregnant. Some methods of testing also accommodate for user error. So the statistics collected will show how many people become pregnant because the method failed to work properly, and perhaps also how many failed because of improper use (which can be related to how difficult the method is to use.)

In both an NFP and an ABC random controlled group, a similar % of woman should be normally fertile/healthy etc.

So I don’t see how the fact that the woman ovulated is relevant in this sense at all. Stats on birth control effectiveness are interested in the number of people who fail to achieve the objective of preventing pregnancy.

If they are testing NFP differently than ABC is tested, then honestly the stats aren’t worth the paper they are printed on, which is very annoying to me.
Actually, it makes it worth more than the abc stats.

I really dont understand what makes this so difficult. It seems that its being looked at a broad perspective with some kind of “study” and end result

You are forgetting the very very important major issue here. I will repeat, for the nth time:

A condom cannot get a credit for preventing something that wouldn’t have happened if it wasn’t there.

I’m testing a tent’s ability to keep me dry, over 100 days, and it rains only 25 of those days. Well, I get wet on those 25 days. Can I honestly say that the tent is 75% likely to keep me dry and 25% likely to fail? Of course not! This is the exact same thing.

Testing condoms failure rate would have to test how many children were prevented from being conceived ONLY on days that it could have happened in the first place. It is not…the testing statistics are faulty for this reason.

It makes every bit of sense to take into account ovulation. Which NFP does. Nfp failure rate is actually tied to the fact whether the woman was ovulating or not. This statistic is very reliable.
 
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agapewolf:
I’m testing a tent’s ability to keep me dry, over 100 days, and it rains only 25 of those days. Well, I get wet on those 25 days. Can I honestly say that the tent is 75% likely to keep me dry and 25% likely to fail? Of course not! This is the exact same thing.
Agapewolf, although you can’t say that the tent is 75% likely to you keep you dry (which, as you correctly point out, relies on the actual weather data), you can say that if you use the tent you have a 25% chance of getting wet. This happens to be the same chance you’d have of getting wet if you had not been using any tent at all, thus demonstrating how ineffective the tent actually is.

Most current published contraceptive efficacy data is phrased in terms of population “failures.” In other words, if 100 people used method x for one year, how many of them would experience and unintentional pregnancy? This information can then be compared to other methods or to no method. So, for example, we know that for every 100 women, 85 of them should become pregnant within one year if they are having regular intercourse and not trying to prevent pregnancy. (Or, to continue with your analogy, there’s an 85% chance you’ll get wet if you’re regularly sleeping outside and not using a tent). When condom manufacturers publish their efficacy data, what they’re saying is that if 100 couples use condoms for one year, only 10 of them will become pregnant that year. (That is, if you’re regularly sleeping outside and using this tent, there’s only a 10% chance you’ll get wet). This does NOT mean that condoms are 90% effective for every act of intercourse, nor does it matter whether or not it’s actually “raining” on any given night. It just means that you are much less likley to get wet/pregnant (8.5 times less likely) if you use condoms for a year than if you use nothing. The condom isn’t getting unfair credit for anything, since it’s understood that some of those women would not have gotten pregnant anyway.

You’re thinking about efficacy in terms of actual “protection” per sexual act. Unfortunately, there’s no way to evaluate or compare that on a population basis, because a) it would be near impossible to determine which particular act of intercourse resulted in pregnancy, and b) the efficacy of natural methods depends not only on the user’s decision to abstain but on the user’s ability to know when to abstain. So, in other words, we can’t evaluate a condom’s efficacy during the fertile period to abstinence during the fertile period; we have to compare the condom user’s success using condoms over some period of time with the NFP user’s success using NFP over the same period of time.

For the record, I’m a huge NFP proponent, and the published literature does show that NFP is as effective as hormonal contraception (and more effective than condoms).
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noclevername:
However I beg to differ that it is more reliable than contraception in preventing pregnancy from a scientific stand point. Can you please please point me to the studies that show this? In my research I have not found any studies that were not funded by a Catholic organization to show this to be true. The only ones I have found were funded by Catholic funds.
Noclevername, If you have access to pubmed, search for and read through the many studies published by either Arevelo (from the Institute for Reproductive Health) or Stanford (who happens to be Mormon). To be fair, though, one really shouldn’t evaluate a study based on the religious affiliation of the primary investigator. Read the literature yourself (even those funded by Catholic sources) and evaluate the research based on the study design and data analysis. I think you’ll be suprised to find that there exists a plethora of objective scientific research which does in fact evidence natural family planning’s high efficacy rate.

God bless.
 
You’re thinking about efficacy in terms of actual “protection” per sexual act. Unfortunately, there’s no way to evaluate or compare that on a population basis, because a) it would be near impossible to determine which particular act of intercourse resulted in pregnancy, and b) the efficacy of natural methods depends not only on the user’s decision to abstain but on the user’s ability to know when to abstain. So, in other words, we can’t evaluate a condom’s efficacy during the fertile period to abstinence during the fertile period; we have to compare the condom user’s success using condoms over some period of time with the NFP user’s success using NFP over the same period of time.
This is sad because this is the data that I am the most interested in. On point b are you saying “did they abstain” AND “did they abstain at the right time if they did?” Is it a two-pronged statistic?

It would still be possible to determine a fertile act vs. an infertile act, even if there is more than one. I referenced fertility awareness methods earlier. Their numbers side by side with NFP numbers would prove the most reliable statistics. Oh where is my book? Who did I loan it to last?

One of my methods for getting people to abandon contraception is to at least introduce them to FAM. Then when they experience the second class condom act as opposed to the first class natural act they start to not want the contraception. This of course doesn’t work with women on the Pill since they have little idea of what a normal sex drive is supposed to feel like. Their so-called “natural act” (device free) is not based on a natural libido.
 
Part of the advantages of NFP is that it facilitates marital communication. That is not supposed to be limited to discussion of a woman’s cycles. You have an opportunity to strengthen your marriage by communication. If the issue is divisive to the unity of your marriage, seek counsel through your parish.
 
This does NOT mean that condoms are 90% effective for every act of intercourse, nor does it matter whether or not it’s actually “raining” on any given night. I.

God bless.
But this is my whole point. The abc stats DO state that condoms are 90% (or whatever) effective. That is a complete lie.
 
*I used to be on the pill, and thank the Lord, saw the Light, and have been off of it. So, I am not advocating it, but the 90% takes into accounts, ALL scenarios, errors, etc…it is concerned with the end result, not the details that brought the results. That is not a lie, it’s just not the full picture. It stops a woman from ovulating, the pharma companies who sell ABC, don’t lie about that–it’s clear as to HOW the pill prevents pregnancy. The selling point of ABC is that you don’t have to chart, and concern yourself with ‘‘when’’ to have sex…because you ‘‘should’’ be protected anytime. (this is if you are trying to avoid conception of course) That said, the LIE is that it creates closeness with a couple because of this newfound ‘freedom.’’ The pill actually creates more fear than it prevents. But, it’s designed to stop a woman from ovulating…I’m not sure why some believe that the effectiveness percentages that these companies put out are lies. They are not lies, but I would say that if a woman doesn’t fully understand how her body functions off of the pill, she won’t understand how the pill works. So she is believing that the pill is preventing pregnancy…meanwhile, it’s preventing her body from functioning…from ovulating. Thus the tent example you gave agape. That is a great example, but if the pill is taken as prescribed, it SHOULD be effective 90% or more of the time, in preventing ovulation.

It wouldn’t be a billion dollar business if it failed more often than not, in preventing pregnancy. I don’t see that this is a convincing argument to the OP’s wife. If you want to convince someone to go off the pill for religious reasons, you don’t try to convince the person that the pill is not effective. I’m sure the OP’s wife thinks it is.

I’m under the impression that the OP’s wife is taking ABC…but we seem to have gone into a discussion about condoms…that is a whole different ball of wax. I’m speaking of the pill only.*
 
*Oh my gosh…a light bulb moment. lol I get it now. You are saying agape, that the pill is not preventing anything, because the woman is not ovulating…so, if she is using NFP and she and her husband have sex during an ‘‘infertile’’ time…she is protected either way. I did understand that, but I just understood your point as to why women are believing a lie, because if a woman is not ovulating, whether through artificial measures or natural…she can’t get pregnant. Hello! :o Ok…took me a while to see the correlation.

All of that said, another selling point is that a woman doesn’t want to be bothered with charting. The irony is, that it’s not as hard as I used to think. It also draws a couple much closer together.

You could show her these posts Ignatius? Not sure if that would help or hurt your cause. 😊*
 
Sorry I haven’t been able to post until now and that I didn’t leave much info in my original post.

I will post here soon to answer your questions. I’ve been busy at work and home lately. Thanks for taking interest and please don’t leave me! I need help with this thank you.
 
Know that there are other men in the same situation…

If she refuses to budge, it probably means that celibacy is a cross you will have to bear – perhaps for years – all the while praying for her to be changed on the subject. 😦
 
Know that there are other men in the same situation…

If she refuses to budge, it probably means that celibacy is a cross you will have to bear – perhaps for years – all the while praying for her to be changed on the subject. 😦
The Church does not teach this.

The Church teaches that a person may have marital relations with a contracepting spouse. They simply cannot participate in the contraception. The sin is on the contraceptor not the person begging them to stop.
 
Not to mention on the whole celibacy thing it can be very damaging to a marriage to do that for a long period of time. Take it from someone that knows from personal experience.
 
The Church does not teach this.

The Church teaches that a person may have marital relations with a contracepting spouse. They simply cannot participate in the contraception. The sin is on the contraceptor not the person begging them to stop.
You are correct in noting this teaching. But please remember we had the man awhile back whose wife said, “condoms or no sex.” It was the only contraception she would use. After much prayer and meetings with his priest, he believed they were called to continence. You are correct that the Church teaches as you noted, but there are still people who are called to continence. It is a very sad situation. I still pray for that couple whenever I think about it.
 
If you’re looking for a secular endorsement of NFP’s effectiveness, look no further than this (from the website of the Diocese of Richmond, Va.):

“After a large scale, multi-year study comparing NFP to the IUD, for example, the Chinese government was so impressed with NFP that it officially declared in 1995 that the method must be presented to all citizens as part of its compulsory family planning instruction. There are currently more than 4 million couples using NFP in China to avoid pregnancy with an overall success rate of 98+ percent.”

Considering the fact that there is no more pro-contraception, pro-abortion and anti-Catholic government than that of China, and that millions of Chinese couples choose NFP even when the governments gives them incentives such as extra days off work to use IUDs and other devices, the government’s endorsement of NFP as an acceptable birth control option speaks volumes.

Here is a link to all the facts and figures on the Chinese study.

woomb.org/omrrca/bulletin/vol27/no4/chinaEvaluation.html
 
Not to mention on the whole celibacy thing it can be very damaging to a marriage to do that for a long period of time. Take it from someone that knows from personal experience.
Well, we know that one can NEVER do a sinful act, even if it is to bring about a good result. So if a wife says “put on a condom, or else no sex” the man had better choose the “no sex.”

While there are two goods or ends to the marital act, to directly engage in contraception may seem to keep the marriage strong due to good intimacy, but it’s actually doing damage at the same time. I’ve heard priests say that you can use a condom if it’s the only option from the wife (since it’s her ultimatum), but it’s still the man who is directly contracepting. Thus, despite the priest’s advice, he is called to celibacy.

I do stand corrected in that a man may engage in sex if it’s the wife who is doing the contracepting; he is an indirect participant. I had not thought of this because the most common form of contraception for women is the pill, which is fraught with other problems such as side effects, hindering implantation in the uterus (a form of abortion!) and possible links to breast cancer. For these reasons, I had sort of blocked that option out of my mind.

LittleDeb said it best.
 
This is sad because this is the data that I am the most interested in. On point b are you saying “did they abstain” AND “did they abstain at the right time if they did?” Is it a two-pronged statistic?

It would still be possible to determine a fertile act vs. an infertile act, even if there is more than one. I referenced fertility awareness methods earlier. Their numbers side by side with NFP numbers would prove the most reliable statistics. Oh where is my book? Who did I loan it to last?

One of my methods for getting people to abandon contraception is to at least introduce them to FAM. Then when they experience the second class condom act as opposed to the first class natural act they start to not want the contraception. This of course doesn’t work with women on the Pill since they have little idea of what a normal sex drive is supposed to feel like. Their so-called “natural act” (device free) is not based on a natural libido.
The problem is, when you are “testing” NFP methods, (or really other methods too but especially NFP) a major part of what you are testing is the ability of that method to predict when the woman is fertile. It must be able to do that, but also be able to do it in a way that is user friendly. Imagine that a person is using condoms for example. A year of testing a sample population will include “failures.” Some will be because of a defect in the method itself - it fails to block the sperm. And some will be due to user error - people can’t figure out how to use the condom or it is so nasty they “cheat.”

An NFP method is the same. After a year of use on the test population, failures will be because the method failed to accurately predict fertility; because it was so complicated people used it wrongly,; or because it was unpleasant and people cheated.

With NFP in particular, the ability to predict ovulation is what is being tested. So you can’t say - well, if everyone just charted, then they would know when they are fertile and we could test various methods at fertile times. In most cases, that is not what the statistics are looking at at all, and it isn’t, in a way, very useful information to most people It would be possible to gather this info - perhaps by having ovulation tracked by the people doing the study by some very accurate method, and then looking at the succesess of the woman tracking with NFP. But it really wouldn’t be relevant to most users, because it wouldn’t be telling them much about a real world situation, or make it possible to compare real scenarios.

And to say that condoms are 90% effective is perfectly legitimate. But any statistic only makes sense if you know what it means, and if you are comparing other methods using the same variables. So, after one year, condoms ARE effective in preventing pregnancy 90% of the time in the same way that NFP is effective at whatever percentage that method has when tested in the same way.
 
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