What to make of the prophecies of non-Christian religions?

[jcrichton]

Hi

Yes, definitely God can use “outsiders” like the Magi to further his word and all truth comes from God no matter where it’s found. And I do think we have to be careful with our interpretations (1 Jn 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world).

Hi!
…exactly, Christians cannot just embrace everything that’s out there… if it leads us away from Christ, it is not from God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Erikaspirit16]

Am I the only one that finds it very worrisome that alot of religions have had very detailed prophecies that ended up being true?

Can someone educate me on how these prophesies from other religions’ scriptures are lesser than those of Christianity’s scriptures? What if those’ other religions prophecies come true?

I know next to nothing about Jainism, and your link to Wikipedia is just a list of their leaders.

I personally think prophecy is, let’s just say, overrated. We know that the New Testament was specifically written backwards, in hindsight, to show that Jesus was “predicted.” If you look at these passages, they’re all fairly vague and some of them depend on your definition of a word (“Messiah” for example).

What if I were to predict an earthquake would hit Italy in the next decade? And it did. Would I be a prophet? Or am I simply predicting something that has good odds in its favor? What if you took 8 people and had them bet on 8 different horses in a horse race. One would win. Would that make that person a prophet? As I’ve said in other posts, very few people understand probability. Even very improbable things happen. If you “predict” one of those things–along with 100 other things–people will remember your improbable prediction, not the other 100 predictions you made that never happened. That doesn’t make you a prophet. It makes you a mathematician who understands probability.

So unless you have unchallenged evidence (written…) that a very specific prediction was made, along with a time frame, and the prediction came through in that time frame, and this prediction wasn’t one of thousands of other predictions that didn’t come true, It doesn’t mean a thing. Even if it did come true, it could be chance–a lucky guess. Or maybe you just don’t understand–for example the cliche example of a European explorer predicting an eclipse to African natives in the jungle; he made a prediction; it came true; he must be a prophet–right? Not at all.

 

[Kanade]

I know next to nothing about Jainism, and your link to Wikipedia is just a list of their leaders.

**I personally think prophecy is, let’s just say, overrated.**We know that the New Testament was specifically written backwards, in hindsight, to show that Jesus was “predicted.” If you look at these passages, they’re all fairly vague and some of them depend on your definition of a word (“Messiah” for example).

What if I were to predict an earthquake would hit Italy in the next decade? And it did. Would I be a prophet? Or am I simply predicting something that has good odds in its favor? What if you took 8 people and had them bet on 8 different horses in a horse race. One would win. Would that make that person a prophet? As I’ve said in other posts, very few people understand probability. Even very improbable things happen. If you “predict” one of those things–along with 100 other things–people will remember your improbable prediction, not the other 100 predictions you made that never happened. That doesn’t make you a prophet. It makes you a mathematician who understands probability.

So unless you have unchallenged evidence (written…) that a very specific prediction was made, along with a time frame, and the prediction came through in that time frame, and this prediction wasn’t one of thousands of other predictions that didn’t come true, It doesn’t mean a thing. Even if it did come true, it could be chance–a lucky guess. Or maybe you just don’t understand–for example the cliche example of a European explorer predicting an eclipse to African natives in the jungle; he made a prediction; it came true; he must be a prophet–right? Not at all.

Exactly this. Belief systems that rely solely on prophecies are so open to exploitation; you can predict anything you want and make it come true if you’re vague enough (look at the way horoscopes work!). Even if you cut all the prophecies out of the NT, there’s still more than enough to establish the truth of Christ (I’m not even sure that Mark, probably the earliest gospel, has any prophecies in it - although I may be wrong).

 

[jcrichton]

I know next to nothing about Jainism, and your link to Wikipedia is just a list of their leaders.

I personally think prophecy is, let’s just say, overrated. We know that the New Testament was specifically written backwards, in hindsight, to show that Jesus was “predicted.” If you look at these passages, they’re all fairly vague and some of them depend on your definition of a word (“Messiah” for example).

What if I were to predict an earthquake would hit Italy in the next decade? And it did. Would I be a prophet? Or am I simply predicting something that has good odds in its favor? What if you took 8 people and had them bet on 8 different horses in a horse race. One would win. Would that make that person a prophet? As I’ve said in other posts, very few people understand probability. Even very improbable things happen. If you “predict” one of those things–along with 100 other things–people will remember your improbable prediction, not the other 100 predictions you made that never happened. That doesn’t make you a prophet. It makes you a mathematician who understands probability.

So unless you have unchallenged evidence (written…) that a very specific prediction was made, along with a time frame, and the prediction came through in that time frame, and this prediction wasn’t one of thousands of other predictions that didn’t come true, It doesn’t mean a thing. Even if it did come true, it could be chance–a lucky guess. Or maybe you just don’t understand–for example the cliche example of a European explorer predicting an eclipse to African natives in the jungle; he made a prediction; it came true; he must be a prophet–right? Not at all.

Hi!
…“we know that the New Testament was written backwards?”

…you mean that you want prophecy to proceed actual Revelation?

…so a Virgin with be with child is vague?

…the Immanuel?

…and Messiah is not Messiah but what every person would interpret as Messiah?

…could you expand, please?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Matthew_Light]

As a Baha’i I believe in the truth and validity of all the world’s great religious systems. We believe that God created them in different times and cultures to guide humanity to truth and save us from our own ignorance and sin.

So it does not bother me at all that the sacred scriptures of Buddhism, Jainism, Judaism, Christianity etc. contain many amazing and astounding fulfilled prophecies. I see them as rays of light from the same Sun.

 

[Kanade]

As a Baha’i I believe in the truth and validity of all the world’s great religious systems. We believe that God created them in different times and cultures to guide humanity to truth and save us from our own ignorance and sin.

So it does not bother me at all that the sacred scriptures of Buddhism, Jainism, Judaism, Christianity etc. contain many amazing and astounding fulfilled prophecies. I see them as rays of light from the same Sun.

Hi Matthew. How do you discern which are from God and which are made up by people?

 

[Contarini]

…so a Virgin with be with child is vague?

The Hebrew is “almah” and was, as far as I know, taken by nobody before Christ to be a prediction of a miraculous birth from a virgin.

Edwin

 

[jcrichton]

The Hebrew is “almah” and was, as far as I know, taken by nobody before Christ to be a prediction of a miraculous birth from a virgin.

Edwin

Hi, Edwin!
…so you are saying that it is miraculous for a young woman to have bear a child?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Contarini]

Hi, Edwin!
…so you are saying that it is miraculous for a young woman to have bear a child?

Maran atha!

Angel

No. As far as I know, it was not regarded as a prophecy of a miracle. Non-miraculous births can still be “signs.”

Edwin

 

[arthra]

Hi Matthew. How do you discern which are from God and which are made up by people?

I’m sure Matthew will respond… For Baha’is the prophecies are found in Holy Scriptures and revealed Writings.

prophecy-fulfilled.com/

 

[jcrichton]

No. As far as I know, it was not regarded as a prophecy of a miracle. Non-miraculous births can still be “signs.”

Edwin

Hi, Edwin!
…correct… as in the case of John the Baptist.

Yet, to singularize an event one could not go beyond a Virgin Birth–what is so intriguing about this is the fact that it is the Will of God and that it is God Who makes the Conception possible–this is a singularity that has no equivocation: God prophesizes entering into the world, Coming to His chosen people, Remaining God, and becoming like His servants in order to Serve and Save the world.

The problem with the understanding not being conceived prior to the Incarnation of the Word is also given to the reason of the prophecy:

10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and diligently searched, who prophesied of the grace to come in you. 11 Searching what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them did signify: when it foretold those sufferings that are in Christ, and the glories that should follow: 12 To whom it was revealed,** that not to themselves, but to you they ministered those things which are now declared to you** by them that have preached the gospel to you, the Holy Ghost being sent down from heaven, on whom the angels desire to look. 13 Wherefore having the loins of your mind girt up, being sober, trust perfectly in the grace which is offered you in the revelation of Jesus Christ, 14 As children of obedience, not fashioned according to the former desires of your ignorance: 15 But according to him that hath called you, who is holy, be you also in all manner of conversation holy: 16 Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy. (1 St. Peter 1:10-16)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Kanade]

I’m sure Matthew will respond… For Baha’is the prophecies are found in Holy Scriptures and revealed Writings.

prophecy-fulfilled.com/

Thank you for the link do you accept all the scriptures that are listed in their entirety? What about the writings of faiths outside of those? I only have a very superficial knowledge of the Baha’i faith, and I suspect it isn’t very accurate

 

[Matthew_Light]

Hi Matthew. How do you discern which are from God and which are made up by people?

Hi Kanade!

In the Bible Jesus states the truth of the missions of Abraham, Noah, Moses, Elijah and the other prophets of the Tanakh, as well as John the Baptist. And so all Christians accept those prophets as true.

In similar fashion, the Baha’i Writings affirm the truth of all those prophets accepted by Christians as well as the Sonship of Jesus, the mission of Muhammad, the validity of Zoroaster (btw, the Magi who came to honor the newborn Jesus were probably Zoroastrian priests), the truth of Krishna (Hinduism) and the message of Guatama Buddha. The Baha’i Scriptures also affirm that there were many other true prophets of God, and that no people nor place in the world was ever left without Divine guidance.

The Baha’i canon of official doctrine and interpretation is now closed since the passing of Shoghi Effendi, but as individuals many Baha’is also believe that Guru Nanak (founder of Sikhism), White Calf Buffalo Woman and the Great Peacemaker (Deganawida) in North America, and Cē Ācatl Topiltzin QuetzalCoatl in South America were also prophets from God to their respective peoples and cultures.

As a practical matter, Baha’is seek a relationship of friendliness and fellowship with all religions and their followers. That is certainly not to ignore or deny that some sects and religious leaders have strayed utterly far from God, embracing violence and hatred and antipathy towards those who believe differently. These words are attributed to Abdu’l-Baha, son of Baha’u’llah:

“If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act.”

• Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks

I hope this answered your question.

 

[Kanade]

Hi Kanade!

In the Bible Jesus states the truth of the missions of Abraham, Noah, Moses, Elijah and the other prophets of the Tanakh, as well as John the Baptist. And so all Christians accept those prophets as true.

In similar fashion, the Baha’i Writings affirm the truth of all those prophets accepted by Christians as well as the Sonship of Jesus, the mission of Muhammad, the validity of Zoroaster (btw, the Magi who came to honor the newborn Jesus were probably Zoroastrian priests), the truth of Krishna (Hinduism) and the message of Guatama Buddha. The Baha’i Scriptures also affirm that there were many other true prophets of God, and that no people nor place in the world was ever left without Divine guidance.

The Baha’i canon of official doctrine and interpretation is now closed since the passing of Shoghi Effendi, but as individuals many Baha’is also believe that Guru Nanak (founder of Sikhism), White Calf Buffalo Woman and the Great Peacemaker (Deganawida) in North America, and Cē Ācatl Topiltzin QuetzalCoatl in South America were also prophets from God to their respective peoples and cultures.

As a practical matter, Baha’is seek a relationship of friendliness and fellowship with all religions and their followers. That is certainly not to ignore or deny that some sects and religious leaders have strayed utterly far from God, embracing violence and hatred and antipathy towards those who believe differently. These words are attributed to Abdu’l-Baha, son of Baha’u’llah:

“If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act.”

• Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks

I hope this answered your question.

Thank you, that helped a lot . And I like the quote you ended with. I’m wondering how you view the claims to exclusivity of Christian and Islamic scriptures? You mentioned accepting the truth of the sonship of Jesus, is it that you accept the truth behind the scriptures rather than the scriptures in their entirety? I hope that makes sense

 

[Matthew_Light]

Thank you, that helped a lot . And I like the quote you ended with. I’m wondering how you view the claims to exclusivity of Christian and Islamic scriptures? You mentioned accepting the truth of the sonship of Jesus, is it that you accept the truth behind the scriptures rather than the scriptures in their entirety? I hope that makes sense

Baha’is accept the validity and inspiration of the other scriptures and the truths in them, while not always believing that God “held the pen” and wrote every last word.

Regarding exclusivity in Islam / Christianity, if you have any particular Bible / Qur’an quotations you’d like my opinion on as a Baha’i, I’d be glad to give it a shot!

 

[Kanade]

Baha’is accept the validity and inspiration of the other scriptures and the truths in them, while not always believing that God “held the pen” and wrote every last word.

Regarding exclusivity in Islam / Christianity, if you have any particular Bible / Qur’an quotations you’d like my opinion on as a Baha’i, I’d be glad to give it a shot!

Hi Matthew

Thanks for the answer. When you say that God didn’t hold the pen, how do you separate the God bits from the human bits, or am I over simplifying it? Muslims believe the Qu’ran is divinely dictated, and I wonder how you separate the contents from this claim?

I guess the ones I’m thinking of would be the claims to Jesus’ divinity such as John 14:6 (nobody comes to the Father except through me…), Mark 1:1 (the messiah and son of God) and the passages from the Qu’ran that deny this (Islam is the only approved religion Surah 3:19, Jesus is not divine 5:116-117).

I’d be interested in your views

 

[arthra]

Hi Matthew

Thanks for the answer. When you say that God didn’t hold the pen, how do you separate the God bits from the human bits, or am I over simplifying it? Muslims believe the Qu’ran is divinely dictated, and I wonder how you separate the contents from this claim?

I guess the ones I’m thinking of would be the claims to Jesus’ divinity such as John 14:6 (nobody comes to the Father except through me…), Mark 1:1 (the messiah and son of God) and the passages from the Qu’ran that deny this (Islam is the only approved religion Surah 3:19, Jesus is not divine 5:116-117).

I’d be interested in your views

While accepting the Bible as inspired we as Baha’is would suggest it is not always accurate and that the verses should be understood allegorically… so we accept a “spiritual” interpretation rather than a “literal” one.

“…nobody comes to the Father except through me…”

Jesus was a Manifestation of God so He was like a Mediator between God and man.

“the messiah and son of God)”

Jesus as Son of God is understood by us as a spiritual Title and symbolizing the closeness of a Father to His Son… rather than literally and biologically as in the pagan myths.

The Qur’an suggests

We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah’s Sovereignty) and **We supported him with the Holy Spirit.
**
(The Qur’an (Pickthall tr), Sura 2 - The Cow)

**The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit from Him.
**
(The Qur’an (Pickthall tr), Sura 4 - Women)

The Qur’an we feel along with the Baha’i Writings is an authentic repository of the Word of God.

 

[Kanade]

While accepting the Bible as inspired we as Baha’is would suggest it is not always accurate and that the verses should be understood allegorically… so we accept a “spiritual” interpretation rather than a “literal” one.

“…nobody comes to the Father except through me…”

Jesus was a Manifestation of God so He was like a Mediator between God and man.

“the messiah and son of God)”

Jesus as Son of God is understood by us as a spiritual Title and symbolizing the closeness of a Father to His Son… rather than literally and biologically as in the pagan myths.

Hi Arthra thanks for replying. When you say the Bible is not always accurate, how do you determine which parts are and which aren’t? How do you define what is literal and what is spiritual? Is there a higher authority that you compare it to that helps you decide? For example, I presume you would see the existence of Jesus as a literal truth, but would interpret his role spiritually. What does a manifestation of God mean to you?

The Qur’an suggests

We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah’s Sovereignty) and **We supported him with the Holy Spirit.
**
(The Qur’an (Pickthall tr), Sura 2 - The Cow)

**The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a Spirit from Him.
**
(The Qur’an (Pickthall tr), Sura 4 - Women)

The Qur’an we feel along with the Baha’i Writings is an authentic repository of the Word of God.

Does that mean you place more emphasis on the Qur’an than the Bible, that you see it as more accurate? If so, what would you make of the claim that Muhammad is the final prophet - I presume that Muslims would not accept Baha’i writings on that basis.

As I’ve said, I don’t know very much about Baha’i beliefs and I’m interested to understand more, so I hope don’t mind my questions.

 

[arthra]

Kanade wrote:Hi Arthra thanks for replying. When you say the Bible is not always accurate, how do you determine which parts are and which aren’t? How do you define what is literal and what is spiritual? Is there a higher authority that you compare it to that helps you decide? For example, I presume you would see the existence of Jesus as a literal truth, but would interpret his role spiritually. What does a manifestation of God mean to you?

*Thanks for your question… I’ll respond in italics to distinguish my answers:

For Baha’is a Manifestation of God is like a Mediator between God and man and we accept Abraham, Moses, Jesus as Manifestations of God. We view Jesus title “Son of God” as a spiritual title implying that the relationship between Jesus and God would be one of closeness such as that of a father to his son…and not as a literal incarnation of God. Most of the Baha’i perspectives on the Bible were made by Baha’u’llah and Abdul-Baha. The Bible was accepted by Baha’is in the nineteenth century and was often in Farsi or Arabic translations by Missionary organizations… While Muslims usually wouldn’t read the Bible Baha’is would read it and valued it as a Holy scripture.*

Does that mean you place more emphasis on the Qur’an than the Bible, that you see it as more accurate?

Baha’is accept the Qur’an as an “authentic repository of the Word of God” that is as it was a direct revelation received by Prophet Muhammad and recited by the early believers. While as you know we don’t have the actual words Jesus spoke say in Aramaic as they were passed down and later translated into Koine Greek. Personally I think the work of George Lamsa in emphasizing the importance of Aramaic is important in conveying this point.

If so, what would you make of the claim that Muhammad is the final prophet - I presume that Muslims would not accept Baha’i writings on that basis.

*I think you may be referring to the verse in the Qur’an where the term “Seal of the Prophets” is contained. A “Seal” can also be understood as a “Seal” of authority…that is, Prophet Muhammad was a “Seal” of the authentic tradition of Prophets and not as some believe the last prophet.

The early Baha’is were all Muslims. They accepted that His Holiness the Bab (Siyyid Ali Muhammad) was the Mehdi and fulfilled the promises of the Return of the Twelfth Imam.*

As I’ve said, I don’t know very much about Baha’i beliefs and I’m interested to understand more, so I hope don’t mind my questions.

*Quite alright my friend! Have a lovely season and may God richly bless you and yours!

• Art

 

[Kanade]

Thank you, Arthra, I didn’t know any of that. It’s been a very helpful conversation