What to say if somebody says to me..."How did the kangaroos and koalas get to Australia? "

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LittleSoldier said:
There are certain forum members who are so opposed to any theistic theories of evolution that meet Church criteria (even though the Church has given the green light to belief in these theories) that they will do just about anything to “prove” that evolution is impossible, anti-Church, and anti-God.

They will make accusations. They will make statements such as (paraphrasing): “There will be ushers at the door making sure that people believe in evolution and if they don’t they won’t be allowed into church,” etc. They will twist other members’ words (it’s happened to me) and then say the words are “nonsense.”

These members (at least the few I know) are not scientists, do not understand science, and certainly do not understand what a theory is. And sadly, they do not believe the Church.

God love you!!
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Simple questions:
  1. Did God know what Adam would look like?
  2. Did Adam look like God expected?
  3. Reconcile Eve coming from Adam.
 
Prophesy said:
Is the Book of Job literal? Can Satan stand before God among his Sons (Job1:6). Is there literally a beast called leviathan who can boil the sea like a pot of water? It is Church teaching that using only a literal understanding of Scripture is harmful exegesis. The Catechism gives 4 senses of Scripture in great detail.

-Prophecy
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We are to understand scripture as the Church has taught and understood it.

What Does the Catholic Church Teach about Origins?

God created everything “in its whole substance” from nothing (ex nihilo) in the beginning. (Lateran IV; Vatican Council I)
· Genesis does not contain purified myths. (Pontifical Biblical Commission 19091)
· Genesis contains real history—it gives an account of things that really happened. (Pius XII)
· Adam and Eve were real human beings—the first parents of all mankind. (Pius XII)
· Polygenism (many “first parents”) contradicts Scripture and Tradition and is condemned. (Pius XII; 1994
Catechism, 360, footnote 226: Tobit 8:6—the “one ancestor” referred to in this Catechism could only be Adam.)
· The “beginning” of the world included the creation of all things, the creation of Adam and Eve and the Fall (Jesus Christ [Mark 10:6]; Pope Innocent III; Blessed Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus).
· The body of Eve was specially created from a portion of Adam’s body (Leo XIII). She could not have originated via evolution.
· Various senses are employed in the Bible, but the literal obvious sense must be believed unless reason dictates or necessity requires (Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus).
· Adam and Eve were created upon an earthly paradise and would not have known death if they had remained obedient (Pius XII).
· After their disobedience of God, Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden. But the Second Person of the Trinity would subsequently pay the ransom for fallen man (Nicene Creed).
· Original Sin is a flawed condition inherited from Adam and Eve (Council of Trent).
· The Universe suffers in travail ever since the sin of disobedience by Adam and Eve. (Romans 8, Vatican
Council I).
· We must believe any interpretation of Scripture that the Fathers taught unanimously on a matter of faith or morals (Council of Trent and Vatican Council I).
· All the Fathers who wrote on the subject believed that the Creation days were no longer than 24-hour-days. (Consensus of the Fathers of the Church)
· The work of Creation was finished by the close of Day Six, and nothing completely new has since been created—except for each human rational soul at conception (Vatican Council I)
· St. Peter and Christ Himself in the New Testament confirmed the global Flood of Noah. It covered all the then high mountains and destroyed all land dwelling creatures except eight human beings and all kinds of non-human creatures aboard the Ark (Unam Sanctam, 1302)
· The historical existence of Noah’s Ark is regarded as most important in typology, as central to Redemption. (1566 Catechism of the Council of Trent)
· Evolution must not be taught as fact, but instead the pros and cons of evolution must be taught. (Pius XII, Humani Generis)
· Investigation into human “evolution” was allowed in 1950, but Pope Pius XII feared that an acceptance of evolutionism might adversely affect doctrinal beliefs.
 
Prophesy said:
Who was created first, man or animals?

-Prophecy
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The first account tells us about God’s creation.

The second account is about man’s importance.

They do not conflict, they are complementary.
 
buffalo said:
Simple questions:
  1. Did God know what Adam would look like?
  2. Did Adam look like God expected?
  3. Reconcile Eve coming from Adam.
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So if they are so simple, answer them yourself. What do you need me for? I’m not getting into an ID discussion or your degrees of infallibility as I asked you to explain them once before and never received a satisfactory response.

Don’t have to, don’t want to, won’t. Sorry.

And as I have stated, my concern is that people are telling me what I should believe when the Church is telling me I can believe the opposite. That is where my interest, my disgust, and my extreme sadness lies.
 
twinc said:
animals but both on the same day and almost instantly together - so man and dinosaurs and apes lived at the same time in harmony and as herbivores - twinc
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The first chapter of Genesis:

And God made two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars. [17] And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth. [18] And to rule the day and the night, and to divide the light and the darkness. And God saw that it was good. [19] And the evening and morning were the fourth day. [20] God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the firmament of heaven.

[21] And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [22] And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth. [23] And the evening and morning were the fifth day. [24] And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done. [25] And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

[26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

The second chapter of Genesis

[18] And the Lord God said: It is not good for man to be alone: let us make him a help like unto himself. [19] And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature the same is its name. [20] And Adam called all the beasts by their names, and all the fowls of the air, and all the cattle of the field: but for Adam there was not found a helper like himself.

Eve and Adam are created with consider disparity between them. God creates animals so that the lonely Adam can have a companion, but then creates Eve who is unlike the other animals.

The only way that this is a contradiction is if they are read literally.

-Prophecy
 
Prophesy said:
The first chapter of Genesis:

And God made two great lights: a greater light to rule the day; and a lesser light to rule the night: and the stars. [17] And he set them in the firmament of heaven to shine upon the earth. [18] And to rule the day and the night, and to divide the light and the darkness. And God saw that it was good. [19] And the evening and morning were the fourth day. [20] God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creature having life, and the fowl that may fly over the earth under the firmament of heaven.

[21] And God created the great whales, and every living and moving creature, which the waters brought forth, according to their kinds, and every winged fowl according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. [22] And he blessed them, saying: Increase and multiply, and fill the waters of the sea: and let the birds be multiplied upon the earth. [23] And the evening and morning were the fifth day. [24] And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done. [25] And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and cattle, and every thing that creepeth on the earth after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

[26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

The second chapter of Genesis

[18] And the Lord God said: It is not good for man to be alone: let us make him a help like unto himself. [19] And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature the same is its name. [20] And Adam called all the beasts by their names, and all the fowls of the air, and all the cattle of the field: but for Adam there was not found a helper like himself.

Eve and Adam are created with consider disparity between them. God creates animals so that the lonely Adam can have a companion, but then creates Eve who is unlike the other animals.

The only way that this is a contradiction is if they are read literally.

-Prophecy
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Hello - did you not read my post? They are complementary.
 
LittleSoldier said:
So if they are so simple, answer them yourself. What do you need me for? I’m not getting into an ID discussion or your degrees of infallibility as I asked you to explain them once before and never received a satisfactory response.

Don’t have to, don’t want to, won’t. Sorry.

And as I have stated, my concern is that people are telling me what I should believe when the Church is telling me I can believe the opposite. That is where my interest, my disgust, and my extreme sadness lies.
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You have to confront these.
 
LilyM said:
Very simply, the fact that aboriginal humans managed to get to Australia shows that there was probaby a way for animals to do so as well. 🤷
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Aboriginal humans were able to make rafts and boats and sail across the sea, animals couldn’t. That’s why in Australia we have marsupials rather than mammals and Asia has mammals but no marsupials.
 
buffalo said:
Hello - did you not read my post? They are complementary.
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I know what I am talking about. The very last line of the post is this:

**The only way that this is a contradiction is if they are read literally. **

-Prophecy
 
Prophesy said:
Allow me to be more clear

The only way that this is a contradiction is if they are read literally.

I’m not saying that there is a contradiction given a proper understanding of Genesis in which the stories of creation are illustrating different things.

-Prophecy
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…or worse: LITERALISTICALLY
 
buffalo said:
Simple questions:
  1. Did God know what Adam would look like?
  2. Did Adam look like God expected?
  3. Reconcile Eve coming from Adam.
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  1. Yes
  2. Yes
  3. Adam was the only True Human to come from his hominid parents.
 
buffalo said:
Simple questions:
  1. Did God know what Adam would look like?
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Of course HE did. HE created the DNA. HE created DNA in the first place and what it would do. How ever many animalbodies the DNA passed through on its way to Adam made no difference.
  1. Did Adam look like God expected?
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See above. Come on, the Creator of DNA can’t command the appearance of the final body?

Why is appearance even an issue?
  1. Reconcile Eve coming from Adam.
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Good question.

But GOD could easily have caused 2 human beings one M, one F, to appear from the same “hominid” generation.

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
Of course HE did. HE created the DNA. HE created DNA in the first place and what it would do. How ever many animalbodies the DNA passed through on its way to Adam made no difference.

See above. Come on, the Creator of DNA can’t command the appearance of the final body?

Why is appearance even an issue?

Good question.

But GOD could easily have caused 2 human beings one M, one F, to appear from the same “hominid” generation.

ICXC NIKA
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Why? This was a question for theistic evo’s.

If God planned Adam to look like he did, then random mutations and natural selection are not a feasable explanation. Adding in Eve coming from Adam points to a supernatural creation of Adam and Eve.

Polygenism is ruled out.
 
buffalo said:
You have to confront these.
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Further explanation of my response of:

“Why? Whatcha gonna do if I don’t? :rolleyes:”

Your statement illustrates exactly what I have been trying to get people to understand. We do not have to confront these. A Catholic is not forced to believe in ID, in theistic evolution, in atheistic evolution, in creationism without evolution…

It doesn’t have any bearing on our salvation. A Catholic can look at this thread, think “Well, I’m just not interested” and that is fine.

My main issue is that many Catholics demand that we who accept theistic theories of evolution which meet Church criteria stop accepting those theories because we are not being good Catholics or following Church teaching. And that is wrong. Lay people should not be telling me to not do something the Church gives me permission to do. By doing so they are placing themselves above the Magisterium.

As to your questions, God is omniscient. Of course He knew what Adam would look like, if there was an Adam (and although I’m not sure, I believe the Church teaches we all descended from one man and one woman, although I don’t think we are required to believe the man’s name was actually “Adam”). And of course if Adam existed he looked the way God envisioned him. Why wouldn’t he?

Your third question is not really a question but a task. And at this point I can’t reconcile it. But then I have a mortal human mind and God is well, God. And God is divine. I believe in Him, I believe He did whatever He did and that it was done from love and was good. I don’t believe God pulled a rib out of Adam and formed it into Eve, nor do I believe God made Eve from mud, although He certainly could have done either. Maybe in a year or two I can give a better answer, although I doubt it. But it doesn’t really matter because it has no bearing on my salvation.

I apologize for my slightly uncharitable initial response. I was in a weird mood the day I posted that.
 
buffalo said:
Why? This was a question for theistic evo’s.

If God planned Adam to look like he did, then random mutations and natural selection are not a feasable explanation. Adding in Eve coming from Adam points to a supernatural creation of Adam and Eve.

Polygenism is ruled out.
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No - it does not rule out random mutations and natural selection. God is omniscient. He can use whatever tools He wishes to use to do whatever He wants. What is random to us may not be random to God. Time does not have the same meaning for God. He knows everything through all time. You are placing limits on His power.

Polygenism is not a part of every theistic theory of evolution and I don’t accept it as a valid explanation for the diversity of human beings.
 
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