What type of music would you like at Mass?

[OutinChgoburbs]

Cat, the problem with “Gather Us In” is that it is not a song about God, a hymn- it is a song about us. It’s the same thing with “Song of the Body of Christ” (not to mention bad melody). The hymns we sing should be about God and His attributes, not about us and what we do and how we do it. It is more like setting a stage or singing an opera than about worshipping God.

The Haugen-Haas psalm refrains are excellent. But their music is simply not music. It does not deserve to be 1/3 to 1/2 of a hymnal, esp. when the majority of their body of work is simply songs, not hymns. other people with better skills should be given the opportunity to write and produce hymns. But there’s old Haugen and Haas on their GIA and OCP contracts, filling up the books.

And as you have probably read, even the nicest bishops are not always right.

 

[MusicMan]

I’m pretty appalled too at the way people are talking about music on this thread, especially the nasty indictments of Haugen, Haas, and Schutte.

Not all of their music is good. No composer avoided writing a bad piece of music. I wonder how many of Bach’s cantatas were actually considered to be “good” and how many Lutherans complained about the latest piece of “dreck” from their music director?

The goal here, ladies and gentlemen, is to select music for Mass that the people will sing, and to facilitate the musical worship of the Faithful. So long as the lyrics are in line with the teachings and beliefs of the Church, and fit the above parameters, the music of Haugen, Haas, Schutte, and those like them are fairgame.

 

[Sarabande]

I cannot say whether or not Haugen and Haas are Christians. If they are, then I’m sure they are trying their best. I don’t believe their intelligence is sub-par or that people who get something out of their music has sub-par intelligence either. My best friend is also classically trained on the piano and is extremely intelligent (actually having skipping a grade in school) and she happens to enjoy some of their music. I definitely don’t find her lowly in intelligence. There is secular music and some sacred music that I like that, but if I analyze it with my classically-trained eye, it’s down-right lousy music. If I’m just looking at it for any kind of pleasure, I’m ok with it. But with many of Haugen/Haas music, I can find neither spiritual pleasure in the music and text just on the aesthetic level, nor see musical perfection in it either, which helps me achieve spiritual ecstasy and inner peace. And because I cannot find anything redeeming in most of their music and the text (I don’t mind their psalmodies), it interferes with my own spiritual enrichment. And I am thankful that there is variety in liturgical music today in many parishes as compared to in the 80s and 90s when it seemed that every parish played only that at every mass.

For me, it has nothing to do with intelligence, but more with ability. I have been playing the piano since the age of 4, but I’m mediocre at it. Although I enjoy playing the piano in the privacy of my home, I haven’t performed it in front of people since high school. My performing skills at the piano are my best, but I don’t believe it is best for the Church or even for performing in front of family and friends. I know my ability as a classically trained singer and I am confident in my abilities as a musician in that form of instrument. Because of that, I feel that I am giving the best for church and in the secular realms. But if I decide that my voice has not reached my personal standard or if my trusted peers, colleagues and contemporaries have advised me of my lack of ability, I will no longer sing in public nor torture a congregation with a bad voice even if I would be trying my best.

Anyway… I personally think it’s great that people have such strong opinions on liturgical music on either side. I think it’s interesting to see how one receives really visceral reactions or ethereal reactions. It proves to me that music and art is so important and vital to our spiritual lives and our souls. It also helps me think even more about why I believe in something so strongly or helps me realize that maybe I feel too strongly about one issue or another. In any case, it’s all good. So keep the discussion going for all involved.

 

[MusicMan]

Although the settings of the texts can be questionable, the Haugen/Haas settings of the psalms in Gather are gorgeous, with chord progressions that are very interesting.

However, does anyone belong to a church that actually does Schutte’s Be Not Afraid correctly? I’d bet money that the rhythms are so complex that it would actually be impossible. I know my group has a specific way that they have “altered” the rhythms to make it easier to sing. I wonder if I could publish a new arrangement of Be Not Afraid that is less complex and doesn’t require sixteenth-note subdivision to make one’s entrance in the 1st and 2nd verses.

 

[Michael_Welter]

However, does anyone belong to a church that actually does Schutte’s Be Not Afraid correctly? I’d bet money that the rhythms are so complex that it would actually be impossible. I know my group has a specific way that they have “altered” the rhythms to make it easier to sing. I wonder if I could publish a new arrangement of Be Not Afraid that is less complex and doesn’t require sixteenth-note subdivision to make one’s entrance in the 1st and 2nd verses.

My wife and I used to do it as written, although we haven’t done that song in many years. We’re both musicians with music degrees, so it wasn’t that hard for us to figure it out. However, you’re right, it’s a tough one for the congregation to get.

 

[Cat]

"We don’t need to be singing about our feelings, or singing with God’s voice in the 1st person, or singing lyrics that are questionable with regards to fitness for liturgical hymnody. "​

SeekerJen, why not?

Singing about feelings is one of the main reasons for writing songs, including Christian songs. Many of the Psalms are about the psalmist’s feelings of joy, dread, fear, hatred, love, etc. If it was good enough for David, Asaph, and all the rest, it’s good enough for me!

What’s wrong with singing with God’s voice in the 1st person? It’s an artistic device to help people realize that God is speaking to them. I can’t remember the title, but one of my favorite modern Catholic hymns has the chorus, “I love you and you are mine.” When I hear that song, I hear God wooing me. A lot of these “1st person” lines are straight from the Scriptures where God speaks in 1st person.

Singing hymns that are questionable with regards to liturgical hymnody? --questionable by WHOM? Youm? Who are you?

Like I said in my other post, the Catholic people with the authority to forbid hymns in the liturgy have NOT forbidden the songs in the Gather hymnal. Until they do, I will abide by and respect their decision.

If you and others truly believe that the hymns are “questionable,” then take it up with the proper people and try to get these hymns forbidden. Don’t try to convince a lot of strangers online, including new Christians and new Catholics, that the hymns they love to sing are “questionable” when NO CATHOLIC AUTHORITY has pronounced them so. Certainly you can state your personal opinion of various hymns, but don’t try to pass it off as the voice of authority.

I disagree that the modern hymns are difficult for a congregation to sing. It depends on the hymn. I think that many of the modern hymns ARE easy to sing compared to some of the hymns. It all depends on the cantor’s strength of voice and leadership ability, the musicians ability to pound out the melody, the musical background of the congregation, and the sound system in the church. “Gather Us In” has a delightful, dancey melody, while certain old “German” hymns and some of the “Scottish-style” hymns have a very awkward melody and rhythm. Also, certain beloved Protestant hymns like “How Great Thou Art” are extremely difficult to sing because of the low-pitched verses and high-pitched choruses. (“Great is thy Faithfulness” is another difficult to sing Protestant hymn.)

 

[MusicMan]

It’s just the 16th note subdivision to start the 1st and 2nd verses that is really too complicated. There is no external pulse written in the accompaniment to work off of, so unless one arpegiates the chord, even (well) trained musicians will struggle with the entrance. A choir director whose sole job is to direct/conduct and not accompany would be able to give a sufficient cue to the choir.

 

[lak611]

“Gather Us In” has a delightful, dancey melody

That’s the problem. Mass is not supposed to be a disco or a square dance atmosphere.

 

[Sarabande]

Although the settings of the texts can be questionable, the Haugen/Haas settings of the psalms in Gather are gorgeous, with chord progressions that are very interesting.

Yes, I don’t have a problem with their psalms. They’re fine and not offensive.

However, does anyone belong to a church that actually does Schutte’s Be Not Afraid correctly? I’d bet money that the rhythms are so complex that it would actually be impossible. I know my group has a specific way that they have “altered” the rhythms to make it easier to sing. I wonder if I could publish a new arrangement of Be Not Afraid that is less complex and doesn’t require sixteenth-note subdivision to make one’s entrance in the 1st and 2nd verses.

I don’t think any congregation sings it rhythmically correct as written - at least in any of the churches I’ve visited or used to cantor at. Even when you and the organist plays it correctly, the congregation will take it differently. You’d probably have to receive permission from Schutte to publish a new arrangment of it, but you can check it out. We don’t have that song in our repertoire, though, so that’s something we don’t have to worry about.

I can’t remember the name of this hymn - I think it’s “You Are Near”? We sometimes have to do this for Archdiocesan events and once in a while for weddings. Congregations never seem to know when to come in after the little interlude or that they have to sing the first two verses together without going to the refrain. They also have trouble knowing how to sing the pickup eighth note or sixteenth note to the next verse – either verse three or four, I can’t remember. (Sorry, my brain is mush right now. I had music overload this entire weekend with rehearsals and performances.)

Anyway, I find if there are long interludes in music, it helps to bring in the congregation for each verse. For instance, we do the Vaughn-Williams arrangement of “Sine Nomine” (usually for “For All the Saints”, but we’ve done it to other texts as well that fit it) with brass, organ, choir and congregation. The congregation sings out with that hymn and does it very well, but that’s because there is no complicated rhythm for a non-musician to become baffled by. But because of the four or six measure interlude in between each verse in this arrangement, it’s very helpful for the cantor to bring in the congregation at each verse especially since they don’t have that music in front of them or can’t read the music anyway.

 

[Cat]

"The hymns we sing should be about God and His attributes, not about us and what we do and how we do it. It is more like setting a stage or singing an opera than about worshipping God. "

---

Chgoburbs, this is your opinion. As I said to SeekerJen, many of the Psalms are very personal and human. Many of the Psalms are about the psalmist and his feelings of misery, despair, or joy. Eventually the Psalmist moves from “me” to “God.” But it takes a while.

During worship, It is important that we relate to God personally. Many people come to church to “do their duty.” It means NOTHING to them personally. Church is just a “tradition,” and God is just an “idea.”

And the grand sounding hymns and chants are just “theater.” After all, they are so outside of the typical American daily life that they sound like some kind of oratorio or opera. Theater. Not personal at all.

The grander the song, the more theatrical.

If we just sing grand songs about God all the time, we tend to turn it into theatrics. These songs become like “The Star Spangled Banner” or “I Love Rock and Roll.” Not a Person, but an Object.

7But when we sing a personal hymn about ourselves, from our flawed, human point of view, we are jolted into the reality that God loves US personally, as individuals, enough to die for us, and offer Himself to us. Church isn’t just a series of anthems or rituals, it is ME and GOd in personal relationship. I bring myself to God, and my trivial little hymns and choruses about “me” help me to do that, and He brings Himself in all His Might to me, and the hymns declaring His Greatness help me to appreciate Him.

In Pioneer Clubs, we were trained to lead the singing as a progression . We started out the Song Fest (that’s what it used to be called) with silly songs about ants marching and animal fairs and fun stuff. Then we sang “bridge songs” about peace and Kumbaya and brotherhood of man. Finally we sang choruses and hymns about God. It quieted the kids and eased them into a frame of mind where they could learn about God.

I think the same kind of thing can be done in Mass. Sing a song about “me” to get “me” thinking about “me and God.” Then move into more “God and me” songs.

Please allow me to say one more thing about theater.

To a theater professional like my daughter, the music that you find theatrical or operatic is her normal life. Music like this helps her and others to see God. Music is not only worship of God, but outreach to humans who don’t know Him. I think we need to keep in mind that God caused all songs about Him to be written with a human in mind. Perhaps a certain hymn will be used by God to lead ONE person, just one human soul, back to Him. THAT is sufficient reason for that song to be written and sufficient reason for us to not condemn songs that our Catholic church has approved for use in liturgy.

 

[Cat]

I would like to offer my comments about the use of Gregorian chant for the sake of the OP.

The Catechism encourages churches to sing Gregorian chant and the hymns of the Church. Therefore, I think all musicians should obey this teaching and try to incorporate at least some chant and some ancient hymnody into even the most modern of Masses.

Gregorian chant is a special style of music that requires certain skills.

People must be able to read a line of music, or they must be able to learn by ear. They really should be singing in a head voice, not down in the throat or chest. And they should be able to correctly speak the Latin vowels to that there is unity. Also, I am pretty certain that chant is a cappella.

At the time that Gregorian chant was created, the congregation did NOT sing along with the cantor(s).

But at this time in history, with the full approval of the Catholic Church, the congregation DOES sing along. And frankly, I think that the skills needed to sing along with Gregorian chant are NOT possessed by 95% of the people in any given congregation.

And I don’t think a “schola” will help matters much. People are busy. How many parents are going to give up the soccer games, children’s theater groups, and homework times to bring their kids to yet ANOTHER activity? And how many adults will find the time to add yet another obligation to their already packed schedule? A few souls will attend and be blessed. But most won’t.

As far as I know, the rules of liturgy state that the PEOPLE should participate in most of the singing during Mass. They shouldn’t just be spectators. Liturgy is “the work of the people.”

For this reason, I have problems with using nothing but chant and ancient Latin hymns during Mass.

If you add Gregoriant chant, you will probably have to confine it to a small, select group of singers, and the congregation will merely listen rather than sing it themselves. This is what has happened in many Protestant churches. Much of the contemporary music is not written for congregational singing, but for solo singing, so the congregation doesn’t sing, but listens. These churches have become “spectator” churches, or “theater.”

Is that what you want in your Mass? Music that is beyond the scope of most of the congregation? Music that only a few can fully participate in while others just sit and listen?

Then there is the question of langauge. If the Vatican declares that ALL masses worldwide must be in Latin, I would submit. But as of yet, this declaration has NOT been made. The Pope apparently has loosened up the reigns a little and is allowing churches to add a Latin mass without jumping through hoops to get permission. But as far as I know,the Vatican is still encouraging Mass in the common language, and that means the MUSIC, too.

So when you introduce chant or Latin hymns, make sure to include other hymns and songs that people actually understand and can sing along with.

You also have the option of “teaching” a chant to the congregation, which will probably take several weeks or months of repetition. But it would be a worthwhile effort and a great family-building exercise.

I think that when you introduce Gregorian chant into the liturgy, you should take it upon yourself to educate your congregation about the musical style and why the Catholic Church venerates it. This would help people to appreciate the style and not just see it as something “theatrical” and “weird.”

I also think you need to consider the children in the congregation. Gregorian chant is not children’s music. It’s something you have to read, it’s in a foreign language, and it’s not melodic. Children do best with strong melodies. Don’t forget about these little Christians when you plan the Mass. We wonder why our young people leave to go to Protestant churches. I would venture to say that a lot of the kids would answer, “The music!” Right or wrong, it’s something we need to be mindful of. There are a lot of good hymns that children can enjoy that are approved for use in the Mass. Why drive them away doing only music that is ancient and seems to have no relevance to their daily lives? They are CHILDREN, and we shouldn’t expect them to act like ADULTS and appreciate ADULT music.

Again, these are my opinions. I like a variety of music, and I think we need to obey the teachings of our Church and include chant and ancient hymns. But I don’t think it’s necessary or wise to exclude all the other music that God has given His children.

 

[lak611]

I also think you need to consider the children in the congregation. Gregorian chant is not children’s music. It’s something you have to read, it’s in a foreign language, and it’s not melodic. Children do best with strong melodies. Don’t forget about these little Christians when you plan the Mass. We wonder why our young people leave to go to Protestant churches. I would venture to say that a lot of the kids would answer, “The music!” Right or wrong, it’s something we need to be mindful of. There are a lot of good hymns that children can enjoy that are approved for use in the Mass. Why drive them away doing only music that is ancient and seems to have no relevance to their daily lives? They are CHILDREN, and we shouldn’t expect them to act like ADULTS and appreciate ADULT music.

When my parents were children they sang Gregorian chant. They were required to do so. All of the schoolchildren except the boys whose voices were changing sang at the High Mass every Sunday. The Catholic school gave no other option. My father, who died 3 months ago, still knew all the Latin hymns. My mother still knows them.

 

[baltobetsy]

We occasionally visit a parish that uses chant at almost every Mass. It’s in a lower-middle-class area, and the parishioners are all from the immediate neighborhood.

They use the little booklet called “Jubilate Deo,” which is designed for congregational singing. Everyone sings, and knowing the pastor, I’m pretty sure they have been well taught what they’re singing about. No one seems to have any special singing skill or training, but everyone sings the chants as well as they sing the regular hymns. If I recall correctly (it’s been awhile since our last visit), there is organ accompaniment. While this is not strictly stylistically correct, I’ll take accompanied chant over pop music any day.

Those who would tell you that the chant is too difficult for the average person to sing are either misinformed or putting forth a different agenda.

Ignatius Press sells a CD of simple Mass chants with a music book to follow along. I’m thinking of buying this for our new music director.

Betsy

 

[agapewolf]

Cat,

I’m with you on just about EVERYTHING…and definately in all your points.

There is one example you gave that in my experience is incorrect though.

You said that contemporary music leads itself to performance. Well, the canned Christian music you might find on the radio may be, but actual praise and worship is written so that it is easy to sing. I sing a lot of it, and I find that our children’s masses and youth masses sing the loudest because of that music.Just a little side note.

You’re doing a great job! (I like the comment about the 1700s and the 500s)

 

[Cat]

Thanks, agapewolf,

I was thinking more of the CCM that you hear on the radio that is specifically written for soloists or rock groups, NOT for congregational singing. The teens in our church often use these songs in the Life Teen Mass, and it’s really kind of sad. We all just stand there feeling very old, because our voices simply don’t sound like Point of Grace or Jars of Clay!

I agree, the P and W worship choruses are written for congregations. I’m not fond of these, but I know a lot of people, including old people, who like them. I haven’t heard a lot of these in Masses, even contemporary Masses, but as I said, if it is approved by the Vatican, it’s OK with me.

 

[Cat]

lak611, I’m glad your parents did chants when they were children.

Do you have a good idea that would help the kids and congregations of today to do the same thing your parents did?

Have you worked with children recently to teach them music? I have.

Most children have been so inundated from birth with rock music that they have a very difficult time hearing a melody or staying on pitch. Many children are so used to “fun” learning and having their “self-esteem” bathed, that they don’t have the guts to stick with something difficult like learning to read music. And often their parents support them when they whine that it’s “too hard.”

For several years, I accompanied three choirs (elementary, middle school, and high school). Most of the kids in the elementary choir were “resistant” to learning (that is phrasing it nicely). They have learned to sing (badly) by listening to the radio. Many of the parents actually pulled their kids out of the choir, claiming that it put “too much pressure” on their kids to learn to read music. (Remember, these were kids ages 2nd grade through 5th grade, not toddlers or kindergartners).

In the middle school, there were a few kids who could sight read depending on 1) if they took music lessons, especially piano and 2) which school in our city they attended. Most of the public schools in our city have abandoned any attempt to teach music reading, and spend their music classes “having fun” and “building up self-esteem” and studying “ethnic music.”

In the high school choir, things were better. Most kids didn’t join an extra-curricular high school choir unless they were very interested in singing and reading music.

But the whole choir thing was quite discouraging at times. My children attended a private prep school from the time they were little kids, and they learned to read music the old-fashioned way–the solfege method, with the hand gestures and everything! Not exactly fun, but SOOO very effective!

This year I accompanied an excellent group of middle school/high school kids who are specifically interested in Broadway, and they are HIGHLY MOTIVATED to learn to sight sing because the directors of the choir (all professional actors and singers) tell them that if they can’t read music, they won’t even be allowed to audition. These kids were awesome at sightreading.

Like I said, I’m glad your parents had such wonderful experiences in church music. I did, too. We had a great graded choir program in my Baptist church.

But it’s a different era. Parents and kids are so busy. Parents “invest” in activities that will lead to college scholarships, like sports. Or they “invest” in activities that will lead to a career, like computers. Music is a good investment, and this is where our sight readers come from. But not all parents get their kids involved in music.

I don’t know the answer to mediocre church singing. I don’t think it’s ever going to be like it was when I was a kid or when your parents were kids. It’s too bad, but we have to work with reality. What’s the answer?

 

[SeekerJen]

Singing hymns that are questionable with regards to liturgical hymnody? --questionable by WHOM? Youm? Who are you?

Well, who are you? I doubt either of us is in a higher place of authority than the other. I don’t appreciate that, after an attempt to answer your rather hostilely worded initial post honestly and respectfully, I am responded to in what seems to me to be akin to an attack. I disagree on the appropriateness of singing hymns to celebrate ourselves, or hymns that have us singing as the voice of God. We are at Mass to praise and worship God, not ourselves, and certainly not to speak for Him. But I digress. It does not appear as though we will be able to carry on this conversation calmly and respectfully.

 

[SMHW]

RE: Be Not Afraid.

Umm, did Schutte write a version of Be Not Afraid? I thought the well known version with the unusual rhythm (which I had beat into my head back in the early eighties so it bugs me to no end when it’s sung incorrectly) was by Bob Dufford.

 

[lak611]

lak611, I’m glad your parents did chants when they were children.

Do you have a good idea that would help the kids and congregations of today to do the same thing your parents did?

I would suggest that the Catholic schools require participation in the choir, as was done in my parents’ day.

Have you worked with children recently to teach them music? I have.

No, I am definitely not the type of person who would be good at this. I do not care for teaching of any type.

What’s the answer?

Teaching music in the parish schools and making choir mandatory.

 

[Godfollower]

Funny that you mentioned that. Back in college, my husband, who has this knack of discovering the oddest things in music so that you can’t ever listen to it or perform it the same way again, (he has a quirky sense of humour) realized that the refrain “Here I Am, Lord” used almost the exact same melody line as the song for “The Brady Bunch.” Just take the hymn faster, with a slightly different rhythm during “I have heard you calling in the night” and it sounds exactly like Brady Bunch with different words. I think how it happened was that we were trying to remember the words to the hymn and was singing it quickly and suddenly bursted out with “All of them had hair of gold, like their mother. The youngest one in curls” without even thinking about it.

It started like this:
Here I am, Lord. Is it I Lord.
I have heard you calling in the night…
All of them had hair of gold, like their mother.
The youngest one in curls…

I have a hard time singing that hymn now without busting a gut. I’ve never liked it, but even my best friend, who loves it, agrees that she can never look at the hymn the same way again. Thankfully, we don’t do it where I cantor and it has lost popularity for funerals. So it has been a couple of years since we’ve had to sing it.

He did the same thing with Brittany Spears’ “Oops! I did it again”. We were in the record store where they were playing this song and he realized that whoever wrote the song for her used the old standard, chord progression of La Folia. This was used way back in the 17th century and maybe earlier. We went home to check out if he was right, playing the chord progression on the piano and singing the words to her refrain. Then fooled around with it to sound like a 17th century song. We sang it in complete Baroque style with little fioriture and trills, etc. It was almost like PDQ Bach. I’m almost wondering if the songwriter knew about the progression and did it tongue in cheek or if he/she just got lucky. I hope it was the former, because that would make it even funnier, for me at least. Ok… I’ve really showed my major dorkiness.

Would you like something worse?

Sing “Amazing Grace” to the tune of the “Gilligan’s Island” theme. Or sing the Gilligan’s Island theme to the tune of “Amazing Grace.” They match exactly.