What type of music would you like at Mass?

[Sarabande]

I grew up in the 80’s also, but I took music lessons at that time; so I came to appreciate Bach and Beethoven. My music teacher liked that stuff, and he happened to be a church organist. I never learnt the “popular” music. I was taught to play the classics in my instruction. I enjoy folk, rock, alternative, etc., but not for Mass. I was taught the classic music by my teacher.

Yes, I think a music teacher has a lot of influence on the kinds of music you will enjoy when you grow up. It also depends on the enthusiasm a teacher or a performer puts into his/her lessons or performances. People conciously and subconciously can tell when a person is not into the music they are performing or teaching. So, if you don’t teach or perform it like you love it, then the children and the adults will not get excited about it either. It doesn’t matter what genre of music. My first voice teacher described it as “innerliche ruhe”. One must have that inner peace when one sings or plays the instrument to touch the hearts of the listener. If I sit there and say, “They must learn this music and they must like it,” it won’t work. I can try and try, but it won’t get across to the people especially with the “older” music.

I studied piano from the age of four. We had a priest at our parish who was a former opera singer and directed the adult and children’s choirs. In the 80s, the newer stuff was mostly permitted, but he would once in a while sneak in something older and would teach us two-part harmony and other simple forms of singing like rounds and things like that. But diocesan priests were only at a parish for 5 years before being transferred, so we had him to my 3rd grade year and then the choirs went downhill for a while. At that point my brother and I quit. We weren’t being challenged enough, especially after having Father. Then in highschool we got an older director who was also a music professor at the university not far from the church along with his wife. He did a nice mix of repertoire, which I appreciated at the time, although for me it wasn’t enough. I wanted more. My voice teachers and older musical friends/colleagues have also served as wonderful mentors to me, as well as my personal experience studying abroad and experiencing mass there.

 

[MusicMan]

Don’t think for a minute that I don’t have a solid training in classical music. I’m just saying that a lot of the popularity of the “folksy” stuff with the 30-somethings has to do with the proliferation of Hi God!

I love the traditional hymns, Bach preludes, and Palestrina Masses. I use a lot of Bach when I’m playing for a church that has a working organ (unlike my church). That said, I can still understand why people like the folksy stuff.

I say again, though, strike a balance in your group or your church. There are enough Masses at every church with more than 600 families in it to allow for musical variety from Mass to Mass.

 

[Sarabande]

Don’t think for a minute that I don’t have a solid training in classical music. I’m just saying that a lot of the popularity of the “folksy” stuff with the 30-somethings has to do with the proliferation of Hi God!

Don’t worry. I don’t think you don’t have solid training. You did say you had a degree in music education. I’m just recounting my experience and I wasn’t disagreeing that what we were exposed to as children of the 80s and 90s gets ingrained into our senses whether we liked it or not. Like I said, I still have those songs stuck in my head even though I don’t really have to sing them that much (if ever) any more. And some of it does leave me literally physically sick when I hear them. (I’m sorry, I can’t help that feeling - it just happens whether I like it or not.) Perhaps it’s because we didn’t have “Hi God” in our school? Although we did have the Glory and Praise and all that other music which you talked about in your post.

 

[Cat]

Someone above brought up the “priest” as an influence on music in a parish.

I second this.

I visited a church where ALL the verses of ALL the hymns were sung. The priest carred the hymnal in with him during the processional, and he stood at the front with an open hymnal held high and sang ALL the verses and he looked like he was enjoying it! He did NOT start his recessional until ALL the verses of the hymns were sung, and this meant that everyone stood there and sang along!

There is a church in our diocese with a priest who reminds me of Elton John! He plays his own keyboards and leads the singing and he even rocks back and forth while he plays and sings! There is a lively choir, too. It’s all contemporary (even though it’s in a small town in an ancient church). It’s really fun to visit that church. I imagine that when that priest is alone in his quarters, he sits down at a keyboard and pounds out the music just for fun and maybe private devotion!

The priests in our Italian parish are wonderful musicians themselves, and they will sing with all their might. I think it might have something to do with the fact that they’re Franciscan friars. The congregation sings heartily, too. Many of them are older, and they tell me (I play piano for them) that they LOVE contemporary music and wish we would do more of it. Hmmm.

I realize that the Mass is not about a man or about the music. Perhaps some consider it unseemly for a priest to lead the worship? I don’t think so. It’s nice and sets a great example for all the parishioners.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

I love all types of music, but don’t like especially loud organs nor organs that sound like Merry-Go-Rounds. What I would really love is no music after receiving Communion, or at least a few minutes of very quiet time to reflect on our Lord. I guess the music is supposed to inspire reflections at that time, but sometimes I find it distracting.

 

[Godfollower]

I’m just in different moods each week but for the month of May I wish they would use more traditional Marian hymns. There’s no changing the words for our mother and they are all very easy to sing along with.

BTW, I’m having quite a difficult time switching Amazing Grace and Gilligan’s Island. Will someone please clarify?

Sure! First, let’s get the “Gilligan’s Island” theme going in our heads:

Now, just sit back and you’ll hear a tale
A tale of a fateful trip
That started from this tropic port
Aboard this tiny ship.

The mate was a mighty sailor man
The skipper brave and sure
Five passengers set sail that day
For a three-hour tour.
A three-hour tour.

Now match the words to Amazing Grace to that melody:

(Now, just sit back and you’ll hear a tale)
Amazing grace how sweet the sound

(A tale of a fateful trip)
That saved a wretch like me

(That started from this tropic port)
I once was lost but now am found

(Aboard this tiny ship.)
Was blind but now I see

(The mate was a mighty sailor man)
'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear

(The skipper brave and sure)
And grace my fear relieved

(Five passengers set sail that day)
How precious did that grace appear

(For a three-hour tour.)
The hour I first believed.

(A three-hour tour.)
The hour I first believed.

{Thunder; lightning; etc.}
:harp:

 

[MusicMan]

What I would really love is no music after receiving Communion, or at least a few minutes of very quiet time to reflect on our Lord.

The GIRM calls for the Communion chant to commence after the priest’s Communion, so if musicians are present there should not be slience while you receive. However, the GIRM also allows for a period of sacred silence after everyone has received for the very reflection you seek. I wonder how many of our parishes actually do one or both of these things?

 

[Sarabande]

The GIRM calls for the Communion chant to commence after the priest’s Communion, so if musicians are present there should not be slience while you receive. However, the GIRM also allows for a period of sacred silence after everyone has received for the very reflection you seek. I wonder how many of our parishes actually do one or both of these things?

We always begin the communion hymn right as the priests begin to leave the sanctuary to distribute communion. Once everyone has received, the priests here always take a few moments of silence and reflection. I love it because that gives me a chance to have some quiet reflection as well, since I’m usually cantoring.

 

[mchium]

My personal preference is for sacred and reverent music - which, to me, is organ, piano if there’s no organ - and that’s it. Choral and chant are excellent. Of interest:there was a recent survey taken in my diocese and published in our diocesan newspaper. Both music ministers and the lay members of congregations were asked what type of music they preferred. I won’t go into detail but suffice it to say the answers from the two groups were completely opposite! Go figure (but don’t we all pretty much know this already? )

There is a major disconnect, at least in this diocese; I’ll bet it’s not the only one. Why so many music ministers (and how did they get to be “ministers”???) are intent on regaling us with obscure, dumb ‘songs’ and bizarre innovations is beyond me…maybe if (when) I get to heaven, I’ll find the answer to that one …

 

[elliotfc]

Ideally, the music at a mass should be part of a ministry where the parishioners are involved. There ought to be opportunities for those who are blessed with musical talent to use their talent for the greater glory of God.

I think cultural differences ought to be respected; therefore, a mass in Germany will have different music than a mass in Ecuador.

Having a musical ideal is peculiar to me. If the organ mass is the ideal musical mass, than churches who could never hope to afford an organ will never have an ideal musical mass? I don’t buy it. Artistry can’t be forced, and will evolve over time and will differ based on differences in culture.

So to sum up…the type of music I want is good music with congregational participation that glorifies God and complements the Mass.

 

[lak611]

If the organ mass is the ideal musical mass, than churches who could never hope to afford an organ will never have an ideal musical mass?

Would an electronic organ really be that much more expensive than a decent piano?

 

[Sarabande]

My personal preference is for sacred and reverent music - which, to me, is organ, piano if there’s no organ - and that’s it. Choral and chant are excellent. Of interest:there was a recent survey taken in my diocese and published in our diocesan newspaper. Both music ministers and the lay members of congregations were asked what type of music they preferred. I won’t go into detail but suffice it to say the answers from the two groups were completely opposite! Go figure (but don’t we all pretty much know this already? )

Was the survey like this one?

npm.org/Articles/singlitresults.htm

I had posted this on the first page of this thread. There was some difference in priority between music ministers and congregants for this survey as well.

Added: To sum up the Top three for people NOT involved in Music ministry were -

1. Familiar Melody 52.2
2. Easy to Sing 51.4
3. Traditional Song 47.9

The three at the bottom of the list for people NOT involved in Music Ministry:
12. Contemporary Song 25.7
13. Leadership of Priest Celebrant 20.4
14. Church Building That Makes Singing a Pleasure 18.7

Top three for people involved in Music ministry were -

1. Leadership of Organ or Instruments 66.4
2. Meaningful Text 65.6
3. Leadership of Cantor or Director 60.9

Bottom Three for People involved in Music Ministry -
12. Contemporary Song 25.6
13. Something I Can Sing by Heart 23.9
14. Other 22.0

I’m sure that parishes are different throughout the country, and I’m sure “Tradiational” is termed differently between each parish. (Some people think something like “On Eagles Wings” is traditional while others would believe something older like “Alleluia, Sing to Jesus”. The other thing, too, is that you can’t have a melody that is familiar unless you have good music leadership either by cantor, organ, choir other instruments, etc., so those things go hand in hand. Anyway, this was what the people they surveyed said.

 

[mchium]

Was the survey like this one?

npm.org/Articles/singlitresults.htm

I had posted this on the first page of this thread. There was some difference in priority between music ministers and congregants for this survey as well.

Added: To sum up the Top three for people NOT involved in Music ministry were -

1. Familiar Melody 52.2
2. Easy to Sing 51.4
3. Traditional Song 47.9

The three at the bottom of the list for people NOT involved in Music Ministry:
12. Contemporary Song 25.7
13. Leadership of Priest Celebrant 20.4
14. Church Building That Makes Singing a Pleasure 18.7

Top three for people involved in Music ministry were -

1. Leadership of Organ or Instruments 66.4
2. Meaningful Text 65.6
3. Leadership of Cantor or Director 60.9

Bottom Three for People involved in Music Ministry -
12. Contemporary Song 25.6
13. Something I Can Sing by Heart 23.9
14. Other 22.0

I’m sure that parishes are different throughout the country, and I’m sure “Tradiational” is termed differently between each parish. (Some people think something like “On Eagles Wings” is traditional while others would believe something older like “Alleluia, Sing to Jesus”. The other thing, too, is that you can’t have a melody that is familiar unless you have good music leadership either by cantor, organ, choir other instruments, etc., so those things go hand in hand. Anyway, this was what the people they surveyed said.

Yes, Sarabande…very similar. Thank you for the detail; I couldn’t lay my hands on it and it’s good for people to see. Funny how the music ministers ranked ‘leadership of cantor or director’ as so important?? Maybe it’s just me, but I can sing and love it just fine without them having to lead me. Then again, I’ve been at it for many years At my former parish, they think “Ride, Jesus Ride” is a good idea during Communion…go figure.

Thanks again for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

 

[Sarabande]

Yes, Sarabande…very similar. Thank you for the detail; I couldn’t lay my hands on it and it’s good for people to see. Funny how the music ministers ranked ‘leadership of cantor or director’ as so important?? Maybe it’s just me, but I can sing and love it just fine without them having to lead me. Then again, I’ve been at it for many years At my former parish, they think “Ride, Jesus Ride” is a good idea during Communion…go figure.

Thanks again for your (name removed by moderator)ut!

You’re welcome! In one sense I can see your point about not needing a cantor, and I’m a cantor myself. Ha! Ha! If I’m not cantoring and am part of the congregation, I also don’t need the cantor because I can read music and when I look at the music, I can see what key it’s in etc. But some people do need the extra help or the extra support, so to speak. Other people, like you, also don’t need the help because you already know the music and I assume enjoy singing. I personally believe that the organ or other instruments are even more important in helping the congregation sing than the cantor, although he/she does lend a good helping hand. With the instruments and musicians playing them, they help support the congregation, keeping them in key and with the proper tempi. And it especially helps when the musicians are good musicians. I’ve had to play with some who didn’t know rhythm very well or would play wrong notes or just knew how to “fake” it, which isn’t fun. That just makes it worse and at that point I’d rather have it a capella or no music at all. Otherwise, it is common for people to begin singing a hymn a capella in the key he/she feel most comfortable singing and at the tempo he/she feels most comfortable. It becomes close to cacophony at that point. And in the case at my parish, we sometimes have two masses going on at once – one in the Cathedral and one in the chapel. If we didn’t have the organ or the cantor leading, it would be really hard. I’ve had to do it once a capella as a cantor because the organist was out sick and they still wanted me to cantor. It took a lot of concentration blocking out the different music being played by the organist in the Cathedral, so having me there helped keep the congregation in the chapel “in line”.

 

[elliotfc]

Would an electronic organ really be that much more expensive than a decent piano?

Assuming that a church can afford a decent piano…

I think that a church that could not afford a decent piano would be interested in receiving one as a donation, and just go on craigslist to see how many pianos are being sold for a pittance. My parents gave their piano to a church for a tax write off.

And even if you had an electronic organ, would there be anyone interested/capable in playing it, or playing it well?

If the paradigm (is it still ok to use that word?) is “organ mass”, than I’m not interested in changing anyone’s paradigm. I think that some of the practical aspects are relevant. An organ may be considered an unnecessary luxury by a church.

There are probably hundreds of old electric Allens that could be distributed to churches, say, in India or South America. You could airlift them in, with an instruction manual.

We’re talking technology. If the Catholic Mass is dependent upon technology, that’s a pretty sorry state. The organ was developed in Europe and manned by musicians who were trained. Non-Europeans without musical training should not be expected to conform to a technological innovation of the Renaissance. Centuries of tradition made the organ the relevant and natural instrument of that time, and for those still interested in the rapidly decarying Western tradition, it still makes sense. But the vast majority of the world’s population just doesn’t care. It’s a relic. Europeans should be having babies, and not expecting non-Europeans to adhere to their paradigms just because they ought to.

 

[mchium]

I’m a cantor myself. Ha! Ha!

oops!!!

So sorry…and you made very valid points about some needing help. In my ignorance I completely ignored that fact. I guess I’ve been so frustrated by [our] horrendous ‘leaders in song’ that I forget there are very good ones out there. Wanna come to my parish??

 

[E.E.N.S]

If the organ mass is the ideal musical mass, …

Maybe I missed something, I thought the “ideal” is supposed to be Gregorian Chant?

 

[elliotfc]

we didn’t have the organ or the cantor leading, it would be really hard. I’ve had to do it once a capella as a cantor because the organist was out sick and they still wanted me to cantor. It took a lot of concentration blocking out the different music being played by the organist in the Cathedral, so having me there helped keep the congregation in the chapel “in line”.

I’m all for cantors…but it’s an extra variable which makes possible any number of destructive/catastrophic elements.

As an accompaniast who also sings, I personally prefer not having a cantor because it’s so much easier for me, personally.

A lifeless cantor is not helpful. A cantor who is uncertain, or who is unprepared, is in his/her own way a disruption to the mass. I get the attitude sometimes from a parishioner that “anyone can sing” so anyone could be a cantor but I disagree.

Also, cantors often learn not to care about congregational participation through practice. At funerals and weddings there simply is no participation 90% of the time, so you learn to sing at people, and since the pay is better and you have to dress better you take these occasions more seriously. I think leading mass, which is either done for free or for a nominal fee, is harder to do. You have to approach it differently.

 

[elliotfc]

Maybe I missed something, I thought the “ideal” is supposed to be Gregorian Chant?

I was talking instrumentally. I guess I don’t know what the ideal is. Is the ideal what Jesus and his disciples typically did when celebrating at Temple? Probably not. Perhaps God, in his infinite wisdom, knew very well that things would unfold where, several centuries after the descent of the Holy Spirit, Gregorian Chant would arise as the ideal musical setting for celebrating Mass. This would mean that everything done before was less than ideal. So evolution, and innovation, to a point, but then no more.

And Gregorian chant is/was a fantastic innovation, absolutely brilliant, and certainly was crucial in the development of all forms of Western music in existence. From a ecclesiastical perspective then, music has devolved from Gregorian chant, even if it has become more complex. Or, all innovations are inherently secular, and the grace of God makes Gregorian chant inherently non-secular.

I’m confused as well, but generally content.

 

[Sarabande]

oops!!!

So sorry…and you made very valid points about some needing help. In my ignorance I completely ignored that fact. I guess I’ve been so frustrated by [our] horrendous ‘leaders in song’ that I forget there are very good ones out there. Wanna come to my parish??

No need to apologise. I didn’t take it as an insult or anything like that. I totally understand. I started cantoring while in high school at the encouragement of my mother, voice teacher and people in my parish who’d sit in front of me or next to me. Some of the cantors at my childhood parish were also really horrendous. They meant well, but that is the problem with volunteer cantors and when music directors don’t audition them first. (I’m actually one of the few who have a salary for cantoring.) And when they were the ones cantoring, people didn’t want to sing, so I can relate to how you feel about bad cantors. The funny thing is that often times the organist would try to play over the bad singing cantor, but the cantor would just sing louder into the microphone. It did not make for a good spiritual experience. So, instead of me complaining away and at the encouragement of the people I mentioned above, I decided to become one of two teenaged cantors at our parish. And for me it has been a wonderful spiritual experience for the last 10 years. But if the Church decided that it is no longer necessary to have cantors and that the instrumentalist musicians and the choirs are good enough, I’ll be fine with that as well. The little rural parish, I talk about so often with admiration never had a cantor. They just have an organ and they sing very well without one.