What value is there in faith?

[liquidpele]

When explaining why God does not reveal himself to us in a physical way, many say that God must be taken on faith, even so far as to say that God requires faith and that proving himself to us would make faith unnecessary. I’m curious why people think that faith is such a high ideal and why it is actually necessary beyond attempting to account for the reality of things?

Why would a world where God revealed himself not be a better solution, especially considering he supposedly did this before with Jesus and Moses? Why is taking things on faith a necessity or even a good thing? Why would a God who is supposed to love us require that we take his very existence on faith and the insistence of other mortals?

 

[06convert]

Faith is just there to fill in the blurry areas.

God reveals himself to us everyday. Spiritually through prayer. Physcially through the Eucharist.

Faith is there to help us with the mysteries. For example the mystery of the Holy Trinty. 3 persons 1 God. How does it work? We don’t know for sure. It just does, have faith.

 

[centurionguard]

When explaining why God does not reveal himself to us in a physical way, many say that God must be taken on faith, even so far as to say that God requires faith and that proving himself to us would make faith unnecessary. I’m curious why people think that faith is such a high ideal and why it is actually necessary beyond attempting to account for the reality of things?

Why would a world where God revealed himself not be a better solution, especially considering he supposedly did this before with Jesus and Moses? Why is taking things on faith a necessity or even a good thing? Why would a God who is supposed to love us require that we take his very existence on faith and the insistence of other mortals?

why God does not reveal himself to us in a physical way

First of all God is not human though He once came to this world in human form stripped of most of His Divinity in the bodily personification and spirituality of Jesus Christ . Secondly; if God appeared in all His Divinity, Majesty, and Power we in our human form would cease to exist because our imperfectness could not behold Gods perfection. Moses himself once asked to see God in all His Glory and God had to hide Moses behind a huge rock. When God passed by the rock Moses was only able to see Gods shadow which was barely more than Moses was able to behold. FAITH in God requires one chief ingredient from the human intellect…Humility…a gift from God if your willing to ask for it. Without humility the human heart is left dry to whither and rot away under its own intellectual pride. Strangely enough; even Satan in all his immense pride believes and fears God.

“Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe”. That is how the apostle Thomas answered the Saviour’s disciples when they told him that they saw the risen Lord (Jn. 20:25).

“Unless I see I will not believe”. This is how people who demand from us logical, tangible proof of the Christian faith often answer us, the faithful. But there are not and cannot be such proof, for the Christian faith is beyond the grasp of rational thought, being super-rational. Nothing in the Christian faith, be it the existence of God, the resurrection of Christ or other truths, can be proven logically: one can only accept them or reject them on the basis of faith.

“No one has seen God at any time”, writes John the Evangelist (Jn. 1:18). Nobody has ever proved the existence of God. And nobody has ever born witness to the resurrection of Christ in such a way that it might become an obvious fact for all of mankind. Nevertheless, regardless of the seeming lack of proofs of the Christian faith, millions of people came, still come and will come to Christ; they believed, believe and will believe in His resurrection; they accepted, accept and will accept the existence of God. Why? Because they encountered God in their lives, and no additional proofs were necessary for them.

 

[liquidpele]

First of all God is not human though He once came to this world in human form stripped of most of His Divinity in the bodily personification and spirituality of Jesus Christ . Secondly; if God appeared in all His Divinity, Majesty, and Power we in our human form would cease to exist because our imperfectness could not behold Gods perfection. Moses himself once asked to see God in all His Glory and God had to hide Moses behind a huge rock. When God passed by the rock Moses was only able to see Gods shadow which was barely more than Moses was able to behold. FAITH in God requires one chief ingredient from the human intellect…Humility…a gift from God if your willing to ask for it. Without humility the human heart is left dry to whither and rot away under its own intellectual pride. Strangely enough; even Satan in all his immense pride believes and fears God.

Wait… where are you getting that story about Moses from? A google search turned up nothing. Why would God cast a shadow if he is not physical? Why can’t God come back as Jesus every now and then to remind us about him? Jesus, even being not “all of God’s glory” still performed miracles… I’d love to see something like that.

Faith does not require humility - I can have faith in myself, that I am the best soccer player in the world or that I am the best looking guy in my town for instance. Humility is a good aspect in my opinion, but it is certainly not a prerequisite for faith.

Satan is in the same boat as God, except he presupposes God, so lets just talk about God and not things that depend on God before they can even be argued.

 

[Dtmccameron]

Faith in yourself? Only madmen have that. Of the hundreds of Napoleans and Jesus Christs tied up in padded cells or attracting followers in the strange corners of the world, only the delusional believe in themselves.

And the story of Moses involved him seeing God’s back, as, we’re he to look upon his face, he’d die…I can imagine Raiders of the Lost Ark style…

Anyhow, upon looking upon even that small portion, God’s glory so affected him that when he returned, dazed, to the Israelites, his face glowed. Which disturbed the people so he wore a veil from then on.

Satan doesn’t presuppose or believe in God, anymore than I believe in the keyboard beneath my fingers, he knows God. (Not to say that he knows, say, the matter’s of His heart, or His ways, but he knows that God exists. Knows. How? He saw Him! He was there!)

 

[liquidpele]

Faith in yourself? Only madmen have that. Of the hundreds of Napoleans and Jesus Christs tied up in padded cells or attracting followers in the strange corners of the world, only the delusional believe in themselves.

And the story of Moses involved him seeing God’s back, as, we’re he to look upon his face, he’d die…I can imagine Raiders of the Lost Ark style…

Anyhow, upon looking upon even that small portion, God’s glory so affected him that when he returned, dazed, to the Israelites, his face glowed. Which disturbed the people so he wore a veil from then on.

Satan doesn’t presuppose or believe in God, anymore than I believe in the keyboard beneath my fingers, he knows God. (Not to say that he knows, say, the matter’s of His heart, or His ways, but he knows that God exists. Knows. How? He saw Him! He was there!)

So you are essentially claiming that only madmen have faith in themselves… what about family? Can I have faith in my wife? The argument that people can’t have faith in themselves is ridiculous… people accomplish great things with faith, but this is not faith in God, it’s faith that they can accomplish their goals. Arguing against that is arguing against the endeavors of humanity.

I’m asking where this story about Moses is from… I don’t recall it from the bible, perhaps I missed it. Can you provide a link or something? Google has been unhelpful for me. Edit: Ah! Found it here… this brings up even more questions… Why does God have a face and a back? Seems very odd…

I was saying Satan’s very existence presupposes God, so in this way your faith in God is also your faith that Satan exists, thus I don’t want to talk about Satan, I want to talk about faith. Why is is necessary for God to require faith? Saying that other beings for which there is no direct evidence having faith too is not an argument, it is a confirmation to yourself on your own beliefs. You are essentially saying that your faith is valid, because Satan has faith, because God exists, because you have faith God exists. This is called circular logic.

So, back to my original question… what is so reverent about faith? I simply don’t understand why it’s so highly regarded when there appears to be no good explanation for why it is needed if God exists.

 

[jimmy]

When explaining why God does not reveal himself to us in a physical way, many say that God must be taken on faith, even so far as to say that God requires faith and that proving himself to us would make faith unnecessary. I’m curious why people think that faith is such a high ideal and why it is actually necessary beyond attempting to account for the reality of things?

Why would a world where God revealed himself not be a better solution, especially considering he supposedly did this before with Jesus and Moses? Why is taking things on faith a necessity or even a good thing? Why would a God who is supposed to love us require that we take his very existence on faith and the insistence of other mortals?

Because God is beyond our ability to know. You ask why it isn’t better that God just reveal Himself but the thing is that God is not just some being up in the sky in the sense that the Greek Gods were on Mt Olympus. God as we understand Him is a completely different idea than those gods who could be seen simply as men. God though occupies a whole different reality than what we know. God is not simply greater than man and the universe, He is completely other. So God doesn’t reveal Himself in normal modes of knowledge because our minds can’t comprehend God.

But God does reveal Himself through our hearts through faith. There are miracles and prophecy.

Even as it is, the revelations of God aren’t going to prove to everyone that God exists. There will always be people who will deny it and say ‘it is just an illusion’ or ‘it is the lies of men’ or ‘the world works in ways that we don’t fully understand’. Our tendency is to rationalize everything but maybe there is something deeper than our reason.

 

[liquidpele]

But God does reveal Himself through our hearts through faith. There are miracles and prophecy.

Even as it is, the revelations of God aren’t going to prove to everyone that God exists. There will always be people who will deny it and say ‘it is just an illusion’ or ‘it is the lies of men’ or ‘the world works in ways that we don’t fully understand’. Our tendency is to rationalize everything but maybe there is something deeper than our reason.

I had faith in God for quite a while… never saw any miracles or prophecy though. In fact, I don’t personally know anyone that ever has. Thus, as far as I know, everyone is just going off faith which is the purpose of my question.

True, some people will always reject things, but is that a reason for God to not help clarify things? I mean, coming back as Jesus and giving us a choice to believe or not is one thing, but requiring we believe in him based on just faith that what we’ve been taught is correct seems beyond reason. Why rely just on faith when there are billions that do not believe Jesus was the son of God or even that God does not exist, just because they grew up in an area where different things were taught?

 

[geometer]

I had faith in God for quite a while… never saw any miracles or prophecy though. In fact, I don’t personally know anyone that ever has. Thus, as far as I know, everyone is just going off faith which is the purpose of my question.

You said you had faith, but never saw miracles. You have an agnostic definition of faith.

The faith that we are called to have is to trust that God does exist and does have the power to help us. This kind of trust has to be brought to the level of certainty. You must be certain, happily certain that God will help you when you speak to him.

If you can do that you will see his miracles.

Ask yourself first; will you be at peace when the miracle happens? If it would only make you fearful, you will not see a miracle…

 

[liquidpele]

You said you had faith, but never saw miracles. You have an agnostic definition of faith.

The faith that we are called to have is to trust that God does exist and does have the power to help us. This kind of trust has to be brought to the level of certainty. You must be certain, happily certain that God will help you when you speak to him.

If you can do that you will see his miracles.

Ask yourself first; will you be at peace when the miracle happens? If it would only make you fearful, you will not see a miracle…

How is that an agnostic definition of faith? A miracle would be seen as proof by me, and thus mean that faith was not even necessary at that point. I don’t follow your logic here. Of course I wanted God to help me. I was young and Christian (Baptist), my parents were getting a divorce, and I believed very much. It took me another 10 years to be agnostic (sort of a 1 cor 13:11 type of thing), so lets not whip out No True Scottsman fallacies and claim that I somehow didn’t believe enough to see a miracle.

Also, why in the world would I be fearful of a miracle from a God that is claimed to be all Good? I would honestly love to see one… it would be quite the life changing experience. Again though, miracles seem like the opposite of requiring faith to me… do you not agree?

 

[geometer]

Also, why in the world would I be fearful of a miracle from a God that is claimed to be all Good? I would honestly love to see one… it would be quite the life changing experience.

Fear of god is the beginning of wisdom…

 

[liquidpele]

Fear of god is the beginning of wisdom…

Says who? Seems like fearing something like God would miss the whole point of Jesus’ visit to me. Respect, sure, but fear? Besides, if God felt like fear was necessary, why not send Jesus to strike fear into our hearts in a very real way instead of sending him to be killed by us while spreading a message of love and understanding?

 

[geometer]

Says who? Seems like fearing something like God would miss the whole point of Jesus’ visit to me. Respect, sure, but fear? Besides, if God felt like fear was necessary, why not send Jesus to strike fear into our hearts in a very real way instead of sending him to be killed by us while spreading a message of love and understanding?

God did send Jesus into the upper room. He appeared before them, and said, peace be with you.

 

[liquidpele]

God did send Jesus into the upper room. He appeared before them, and said, peace be with you.

Right… which as far as I’m aware in no way supports your earlier assertion that God should be feared, so I’m a bit confused as to why you’re bringing it up. Perhaps you can expand on that thought a little to clarify what you mean for me?

 

[geometer]

Right… which in no way supports your earlier assertion that God should be feared, so I’m a bit confused as to why you’re bringing it up.

They thought he was a ghost. If he appeared before you, how would you feel?

 

[HickmanJosh]

When explaining why God does not reveal himself to us in a physical way, many say that God must be taken on faith, even so far as to say that God requires faith and that proving himself to us would make faith unnecessary. I’m curious why people think that faith is such a high ideal and why it is actually necessary beyond attempting to account for the reality of things?

Why would a world where God revealed himself not be a better solution, especially considering he supposedly did this before with Jesus and Moses? Why is taking things on faith a necessity or even a good thing? Why would a God who is supposed to love us require that we take his very existence on faith and the insistence of other mortals?

proof can be easily be disproven. Faith is so much stronger. Having faith is a lot like having proof but without the evidence, you just know God’s there.

I Think the story of doubting Thomas applies hear as well.
HickmanJosh

 

[liquidpele]

They thought he was a ghost. If he appeared before you, how would you feel?

If someone I loved died, and then I saw them again, I would probably be very confused, but overall I would be happy. Unless, you know, they actually looked like a zombie or something. If the Ghost was like Casper or something, I would probably feel a bit more threatened, but more so because the soul would be unfamiliar to me than anything else. Either way, it would be a fantastic experience. Also, still not sure what it has to do with faith being necessary.

 

[geometer]

If someone I loved died, and then I saw them again, I would probably be very confused, but overall I would be happy. Unless, you know, they actually looked like a zombie or something. If the Ghost was like Casper or something, I would probably feel a bit more threatened, but more so because the soul would be unfamiliar to me than anything else. Either way, it would be a fantastic experience. Also, still not sure what it has to do with faith being necessary.

Well, you really are not well meditated enough to ever see a miracle. I feel for you, but you have a long way to go.

 

[liquidpele]

proof can be easily be disproven. Faith is so much stronger. Having faith is a lot like having proof but without the evidence, you just know God’s there.

I Think the story of doubting Thomas applies hear as well.

HickmanJosh

Is faith really stronger, or just more stubborn to change? It’s not like the Catholic church has not changed it’s views over time. Also, if proof can be dis proven, is that not a good thing… are you not finding truth with such an act?

 

[Biggie]

Faith is necessary because it is a primary act of love.

The question is how does a human being objectively demonstrate love for God? God, wholly self sufficient and in need of nothing from the human being, can not, objectively speaking, be loved by the human being, since love requires self sacrifice for the benefit of the beloved. Man cannot give God anything God needs. A cynic, such as Satan, might suggest, therefore, that (1) God created man as a plaything for God’s amusement, or that (2) God created man as a puppet, sustained by God but having no free will. In either case, that cynic might suggest, God is not all loving since he has made an unworthy creature for selfish reasons.

The fruit of the tree in the Garden was God’s objective proof of a bond of love between man and himself. As long as man refrained from eating the fruit, the tree stood as objective evidence of man’s communion with God. Once, however, man ate the fruit, it was no longer possible to demonstrate love by restraint. Even if the tree were reestablished and man swore to refrain from its fruit ever after, the one violation allowed the possibility that man will only refrain from the fruit in the future because he knows the taste and meaning of the fruit from the past, the consequences, not because he is abstaining for love of God.

Faith replaces the fruit of the tree, as an objective demonstration of man’s love for God, that not having seen, he has believed.