What wage is just?

  • Thread starter Thread starter YourNameHere
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ok, it has to be an encyclical or a teaching from the pope personally, and it can’t be too old because of changing economics. I disagree, but for this post I will play your game:

CARITAS IN VERITATE, paragraph 63:
In many cases, poverty results from a violation of the dignity of human work , either because work opportunities are limited (through unemployment or underemployment), or “because a low value is put on work and the rights that flow from it, especially the right to a just wage and to the personal security of the worker and his or her family”
Click to expand...
LABOREM EXERCENS, 19 :
This means of checking concerns above all the family. Just remuneration for the work of an adult who is responsible for a family means remuneration which will suffice for establishing and properly maintaining a family and for providing security for its future. Such remuneration can be given either through what is called a family wage- that is, a single salary given to the head of the family fot his work, sufficient for the needs of the family without the other spouse having to take up gainful employment outside the home-or through other social measures such as family allowances or grants to mothers devoting themselves exclusively to their families.
Click to expand...
CENTESIMUS ANNUS, 8
  1. The Pope immediately adds another right which the worker has as a person. This is the right to a “just wage”, which cannot be left to the “free consent of the parties, so that the employer, having paid what was agreed upon, has done his part and seemingly is not called upon to do anything beyond”.23 It was said at the time that the State does not have the power to intervene in the terms of these contracts, except to ensure the fulfilment of what had been explicitly agreed upon. This concept of relations between employers and employees, purely pragmatic and inspired by a thorough-going individualism, is severely censured in the Encyclical as contrary to the twofold nature of work as a personal and necessary reality. For if work as something personal belongs to the sphere of the individual’s free use of his own abilities and energy, as something necessary it is governed by the grave obligation of every individual to ensure “the preservation of life”.
Click to expand...
Pope Francis, homily May 24th, 2018
Wage theft, like “skimming” from people’s paychecks, “is a sin; it is a sin,” the pope said, even if the employer goes to Mass every day, belongs to Catholic associations and prays novenas.
When an employer doesn’t pay what is due, he said, “this injustice is a mortal sin. You are not in God’s grace. I’m not saying this, Jesus says it, the Apostle James says it.”
Click to expand...
 
I don’t disagree, although I feel it should be almost a last resort in many cases. They tend to have adverse consequences, and in the case of a minimum wage increase, I strongly suspect my kids will be on the wrong side of those consequences. But the refusal of people to accept there is any personal moral responsibility at all on this issue, beyond following the government laws, is certainly indicative that what I personally desire and what needs to happen are likely not aligned.
 
tafan2 said:
Ok, it has to be an encyclical or a teaching from the pope personally, and it can’t be too old because of changing economics. I disagree, but for this post I will play your game:
Click to expand...
I play no game on this forum. Our Catholic faith is not a game to me. Shame on anyone who insinuates otherwise.
 
o_mlly said:
I play no game on this forum. Our Catholic faith is not a game to me. Shame on anyone who insinuates otherwise.
Click to expand...
You are being unreasonable argumentative for no other apparent reason then you don’t want to change your opinion.

He sited his sources with recent parameters. It behooves you to concede or at lest argue the point or context of what was provided.
 
Anrakyr said:
You are being unreasonable argumentative for no other apparent reason then you don’t want to change your opinion.

He sited his sources with recent parameters. It behooves you to concede or at lest argue the point or context of what was provided.
Click to expand...
Copying/pasting is not an argument. If you have an argument, post it.
 
Last edited:
Anrakyr said:
It backs up his previous point. Now concede and go find something else to do for a while or argue it doesn’t and dissects his source.
Click to expand...
No, it does not. Are you just a kibitzer, or do you have an argument? If no argument, sorry we woke you up; just go back to sleep.
 
My argument is the same as it has been. Employers have an moral responsibility to pay a just wage. A simple agreement between the employer and employee does not suffice to satisfy this. Simply following minimum wage laws does not satisfy this. (You seem to have changed your position from the former to the latter, but I suspect you believe both.) I base this on church teaching. I copy and paste church teaching as my argument. How can I argue better than every pope since Leo XIII, or the Compendium of Social Docrtine of the Church? I can accept a non-Catholic wanting to ignore these, I have a hard time understanding Catholics ignoring them.
 
tafan2 said:
My argument is the same as it has been. Employers have an moral responsibility to pay a just wage. A simple agreement between the employer and employee does not suffice to satisfy this. Simply following minimum wage laws does not satisfy this. (You seem to have changed your position from the former to the latter, but I suspect you believe both.) I base this on church teaching. I copy and paste church teaching as my argument. How can I argue better than every pope since Leo XIII, or the Compendium of Social Docrtine of the Church? I can accept a non-Catholic wanting to ignore these, I have a hard time understanding Catholics ignoring them.
Click to expand...
Then kindly show how those citations support your argument as I did mine.
 
Fine: you make two claims:
  1. An agreement between employ and employee is a just wage.
    and
  2. The responsibility for a just wage does not weigh on the employer but all society and its forms of governance
Regarding the first, the John Paul II says in Centesimus Annus: “This is the right to a “just wage”, which cannot be left to the “free consent of the parties, so that the employer, having paid what was agreed upon, has done his part and seemingly is not called upon to do anything beyond””

Regarding both of them, the first two quotes from encyclicals all include defininitions of a just wage: “especially the right to a just wage and to the personal security of the worker and his or her family”, “remuneration which will suffice for establishing and properly maintaining a family and for providing security for its future.” Neither of your definitions of a just wage is included. You have yet to cite one church document that supports you two definitions of a just wage.

Finally, it is clear from Pope Francis statement that an employer has personal responsibilities in this regard, he is committing a mortal sin if he fails to “pay what is due” (in the context of Catholic Social teaching can that mean anything besides a just wage?), he is committing a mortal sin.

Let me guess, now you will complain I took sentences and phrases out of context, even though I included the context in my previous post.
 
Last edited:
o_mlly said:
Are you just another wannabe moderator or do you have something to add?
Click to expand...
Look I’m not the one slinging names around here. He has a point there’s nothing I can add to a point especially I agree with it till someone else says something of value. Argue the point or concede. I don’t really care what you do but when I finally see Catholics applying their faith for the betterment of society I want to support it.

You however are just… sitting here saying ‘no’ cause you can rather then should.
 
Socrates92 said:
Haha, I’m just picturing Adam pulling this one out of his hat after God let him know that he’d be living by the sweat of his brow. “No problem God. You do mean 40/hrs a week, right?”
Click to expand...
Oh, I meant to respond to this earlier and I forgot, glad there was another post that reminded me.

It is important to note that work was not a result of the fall, toil was. Man was always created to work. Adam was given tasks to perform before the fall. But the result of the fall was that work became difficult, it became toil. Why is this important? Because we are to build up the kingdom of God in this world. This means to lessen the impact of the fall, restore things back to the intended state (to the small extent we can). Work is part of that. To make work, even hard work, not be toil, we must restore the sense of dignity of work. This is not beyond us. To restore a sense of dignity to work, we must dignify work with a proper remuneration. We were created to work. We were always intended to live by our work. The “sweat of the brow” part is the result of the fall. That will not go away completely, but we should at least try to lesson its impact, all the while being happy to work.
 
Last edited:
I’m just throwing this out there…you don’t need a degree to be a plumber.

You need a certification and license. From what I’ve seen, a “cert” program is less than 5K and the license is about $150.

Electrician, welder, insert other trade isn’t much different.
 
Should someone who produces more value (e.g. more volume) be compensated more than one who produces less?

Would it be okay if someone with a higher IQ leveraged that to make more money with their ability? How about someone with more physical strength/stamina?
 
There are still some, not many, trades where one can apprentice and get their certification. I know the local pipefitters union is always advertising for apprentices in this area, and the son of a friend of ours is doing it and is working out well so far. I believe that one can also do that at times with union electical contractor shops. My nephew is a certified electrician and that is how he did it. Unfortunately, with the demise of unions, these opportunities are fewer and farther between.
 
Last edited:
Ya, I couldn’t remember if electricians needed trade-school or not. Plumbers need it (+ apprentice) to get their cert. They only need a 1 year to get a cert, or could do 2 years for an associates.
 
Thinking about it, I also have a friend who has his journeyman carpenters card which he obtained through working for a general contractor. I do not believe this is an official certification, it is a union defined level of skill, but it carries a lot of weight in the construction industry, and he is pretty well paid.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top