What wage is just?

[Pattylt]

I’m going to tell you the story of Joe the coal miner. You can discount the story as only one person if you wish. You’d be wrong but you can.

Joe lost his coal mining job 7 years ago. He owns his home, it’s been in his family for over 70 years. It is rocky property, not good for farming. He tried to sell but had no buyers unless he was willing to just give it to them. Joe went on welfare which he hates…he’s very proud. He had some savings but burned through it quickly, trying to avoid welfare. He looked into retraining locally of some kind but all of them required money which he didn’t have. He looked into government retraining which had no costs but required moving. Joe has no money to relocate. Joe lives in an area that has many folks like him. Any business that he could try requires either capital of some kind to start or is doomed to failure because no one has money to buy anything. Joe was hoping there was some program that would either help him relocate or retrain him for no or very little cost.

Joe completely believed Trump would bring back the coal jobs. Trump promised this at a rally Joe attended. Joe voted for Trump. Joe is still as destitute today as he was before the election. What do suggest Joe do? Is the American dream in any way achievable for Joe? Is it Joes fault that he was in a good paying job that disappeared?

Multiply Joe times thousands.

I’m seriously asking how Joe should proceed. Telling Joe to just start a business, move or pull himself up by his invisible bootstraps isn’t realistic for Joe. What should Joe do?

Oh, and Joe was offered a gas pumping job that would mean he’d lose money because he’d lose his food stamps and the job pays less than his welfare. Joe took the job anyway because he hated welfare. Does this seem like a fair and equitable system to you? If so, how?

Thanks for any thoughts you share.

 

[Socrates92]

Seriously hilarious, that we are.

 

[o_mlly]

My employees get off easy.
If my business fails, they can simply find another job.
The owner is saddled with the the financial ruin that comes with the failure.

Guess whose day off is cancelled whenever an employee in a small business partied too hard the night before and calls in sick.

The boss really works for the employee. (Read it twice if you winced.)

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I am skeptical here. As I told another poster I have never heard of a notable Denmark university so I doubt the quality compares to any US ivy league school…

Do you realize that Denmark has a population of a little less than Maryland? True, Maryland does have Johns Hopkins, but you really should be careful using your ignorance of Danish universities as an argument.

 

[LilyM]

vz71:

My employees get off easy.
If my business fails, they can simply find another job.
The owner is saddled with the the financial ruin that comes with the failure.

Guess whose day off is cancelled whenever an employee in a small business partied too hard the night before and calls in sick.

The boss really works for the employee. (Read it twice if you winced.)

In my experience (unless there literally is only one employee) it’s always other employees who are called in when one cannot make a shift for whatever reason, and the boss fills in only when literally no-one else is available. Besides which, the boss where I work wouldn’t know how to do half the tasks the employees do, so if he did then plenty of the work would be left for an absentee for when they returned.

 

[o_mlly]

In my experience (unless there literally is only one employee) it’s always other employees who are called in when one cannot make a shift for whatever reason, and the boss fills in only when literally no-one else is available. Besides which, the boss where I work wouldn’t know how to do half the tasks the employees do, so if he did then plenty of the work would be left for an absentee for when they returned.

Based on your comment, you have worked for more than one small business. But I submit your experience is atypical. Franchise is the norm in the fast food business. Often the owner is the manager on the floor. But how often do you see them flipping burgers or assembling sandwiches because of no-shows. Pretty often.

 

[Dracarys]

I’m seriously asking how Joe should proceed. Telling Joe to just start a business, move or pull himself up by his invisible bootstraps isn’t realistic for Joe. What should Joe do?

Joe’s bootstraps aren’t invisible. Their there if he wants to use them. If he listens to pessimistic people like you he won’t succeed. I don’t know Joe of course, but the first thing I would tell him is to stop associating with you and other whining friends who say their situation is hopeless. What good does it do to sit around with other hopeless people lamenting about “the old days”. Move on. Okay, your house is worthless. That is what accountants call a sunk cost. Joe is in an industry that is failing. Does it do him or you any good to cry “but President Trump promised”. Forget about the government. Does Joe have any savings from the days he was making high wages or did he spend it all on buying F250 trucks, wave runners, 5 wheelers etc. ? If he did these are belt tightening times so sell all that junk. Small business loans are fairly easy to get. Does Joe have skills? Is he good at carpentry, handyman skills? If so buy one of these cheap houses, fix it up, rent it out.

Since I don’t know Joe I can’t give him specific advice other than to say cut off all relations with neagative people like you. You live in America Joe and it is the land of opportunity. Foreigners come here who barely speak English,but they soon have small businesses like stores, contracting companies, etc. Yes Joe you may have to move. Borrow money from family, sell off assets.

Specifically I am a real estate investor and I can say I would pay a RELIABLE contractor good money if I can find them. There is currently a skilled labor shortage. I just had a roofer leave me with a big open space where my roof was supposed to be. Why you ask? It’s because my roofer spent the weekend in jail when he was arrested on FOC warrants. I despretly need contractors who don’t lie, aren’t criminals, give me a fair price, and will be on the job site when they say they will. Oh yeah, guess what? It rained all weekend on my house with the open roof. Can you roof Joe? Are you reliable and honest? I need you dude!

 

[Dracarys]

Often the owner is the manager on the floor. But how often do you see them flipping burgers or assembling sandwiches because of no-shows. Pretty often.

Oh heck yes. Many of the people on this thread may be “book smart” and have knowledge of Catholic theology, but they have no idea how business works in the actual world. I don’t know if they are sheltered, spoiled, or lazy. Every business owner I know is in the trenches every day. Many owners have had to cut vacations short, work 20 hour days just to fill in for employees who decided to quit without notice, take a sick day, etc.

 

[Dracarys]

but you really should be careful using your ignorance of Danish universities as an argument.

Once again, I have nothing against Denmark. If I was in the area I would probably visit. But others on this thread argue that their quality of life, educatoin, etc. is a higher standard than the greedy barbarians in the US. I am just reminding them that the US is doing just fine without outrageously taxing it’s citizens to the point of Europe. However, don’t misconstrue that I am happy with US taxes either.

 

[o_mlly]

I’m going to tell you the story of Joe the coal miner. You can discount the story as only one person if you wish. You’d be wrong but you can.

My heart goes out to Joe the coal miner. But who is responsible for providing the circumstances that would allow Joe to earn a just wage?

Perhaps the story of Tom the tobacco farmer in North Carolina will provide an answer.

https://iei.ncsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Carlisle-Economic-Development-Policy-edit.pdf

The political leaders have the responsibility to foresee and plan against changing circumstances that negatively affect their citizens. They may well involve employers in their plans but the leadership to do so can only be there’s. What have Kentucky’s legislative and executive branches done to mitigate the negative effects on their citizens in the now quite old movement to clean, renewable energy? If things have been tried and failed then perhaps they get a pass. But if little to nothing has been attempted, Joe will know what to do at the next election.

 

[Pattylt]

Joe was speaking at an event to the KY Congress, I believe. I don’t know Joe personally but I know several similar stories. @Dracarys, Joe did have savings but burned through them trying to avoid welfare as long as possible. Joe might have tried other options sooner if Trump hadn’t made the promises he did. He believed Trump, he no longer does and realizes how empty the promise was. Joe was trying to plead for a government program that would provide retraining and relocation funds for people trapped like he is. He fully admits his only skill is coal mining. It was a job that been in the family for three generations. His dad got him hired by the coal company when he graduated HS. Joe isn’t stupid. He’s not as educated as he would like to be and was pleading to the KY legislators to get off their hind ends and do something…similar to what @o_mlly shows they did in NC. Joe doesn’t deny that there are opportunities in America. He’s pleading for programs that will help those stuck in impoverished situations like he is. He pointed out that charities can only help short term and the solutions need to come from government. He didn’t used to feel this way. He admits he has learned a hard lesson.

 

[Dracarys]

Joe did have savings but burned through them trying to avoid welfare as long as possible. Joe might have tried other options sooner if Trump hadn’t made the promises he did. He believed Trump, he no longer does and realizes how empty the promise was. Joe was trying to plead for a government program that would provide retraining and relocation funds for people trapped like he is. He fully admits his only skill is coal mining.

So according to people like you Joe is just a hopeless loser right? He’s helpless? That is only true in the minds of liberals like you who think big brother and the rich HAVE to save the day and bail people out. In my experience guys who are in jobs like this have to rig and fix things all the time. Joe can do things you guys don’t know anything about.

Even if he is a hopeless idiot this thread is about a “livable wage”. What do you want employers to do? If hopeless Joe can only offer $5 an hour of benefit by sweeping the floor, should an employer pay him $17 an hour? Is that what your expecting? What is your point?

Joe, politicians only goal is to be elected. PLEASE stop listening to them.

 

[Pattylt]

Never mind.

Muting the thread is best when trying to have a conversation with someone that has no empathy for Americans.

 

[Dracarys]

Muting the thread is best when trying to have a conversation with someone that has no empathy for Americans.

Huh? I am an American. First I don’t believe in your scenerio of the hopeless American who is unable to do what is necessary. Ok I guess there are those who have a job, but spend all their spare time playing video games, cards, watching TV (idiot box), etc. Don’t they even read newspapers or watch the news? If you are in a dying industry don’t you have responsibility to have a plan B?

But again, why is it the responsibility of employers to hire someone out of sympathy? I pay anyone who works for me quite well at the market rate IF they can do a quality job. But the jobs I need done require skills and knowledge. In what world am I wrong?

Where is your empathy for me?

 

[Dracarys]

Your implication that our bishops are motivated more by money than by the teachings of Jesus Christ is offensive to the bishops and the Church.

How did I imply they are motivated by money? Are you reading some other thread? You are confused. Their writing is vague. I think they want to leave room for interpretation.

And when you said that I reminded you that this thread is not about how the economy functions. It is about how the economy should function in the light of Catholic teaching.

I have never seen the Catholic Church say any employer must pay his employees so much money that the business ceases to be a going concern. What good is that? If the doors close no one will be employed at that company. Your beliefs do not make sense.

Secondly let’s say a Catholic employer was dumb enough to pay his employees beyond what they are worth. He is then competing with other business owners of other or no faith who will outbid him on price. Again, the result is the same with the Catholic company shutting down.

Face it your theoretical economy has no practical application so your “argument” is uselessly academic.

 

[JimG]

I am wondering whether the government stepped in to retrain workers when automobile production lines began to replace horse and buggy products, displacing workers. Possibly they could have subsidized buggy manufacturers, but would it have been a good policy? They could have offered retraining, but for which auto manufacturer? Ford and its competitors had different production methods.

 

[Babaganoush]

We would have 30 percent unemployment if that nonsense was passed.

 

[tafan2]

What do you mean “passed”? Why is it nonsense? I was giving rough estimates on what a just wage is, based on the Church’s teachings.

 

[Babaganoush]

If a 25 dollar an hour min wage was passed, whether you limit it to a family of four or include everyone would mean a 30 percent unemployment rate. It is nonsense because most businesses would close their doors tomorrow.

 

[tafan2]

I never said anything about a 25 dollar minimum wage. Again, this seems difficult for people to understand, but this thread was started under the title “What wage is just”, and the OP linked an article explaining what the Church teaches. No where in the OP or the article linked was the term minimum wage used. No where, on this thread have I advocated any particular minimum wage law.