What wage is just?

[Dracarys]

I counted 5 or 6 separate straw man arguments in the previous posting. Did anyone find more that 6?

If you have something to say be a man and say it. Don’t talk about me, talk to me.

 

[Elf01]

After reading and participating in this thread I see it still comes down to those who believe they are entitled to money simply because they exist and those who think you should have to work for what they get. I am in good company since St. Paul the tent maker said those who don’t work shall not eat

People who have jobs are working.

Unfortunately and conveinantly the church does not state what a living wage should be. A frugal person can certainly live on a lot less than one who over spends.

It also depends on the area.

 

[Dracarys]

People who have jobs are working

And they get paid in accordance to what they contribute to the company. Paying any worker more than that leads to a deficit and everyone looses their job.

also depends on the area.

The US has minimum wage laws so I don’t understand the disagreement.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

And they get paid in accordance to what they contribute to the company. Paying any worker more than that leads to a deficit and everyone looses their job.

Paying a worker less than that value leads to more profits for the company, and depending on how many people are competing for that job, the company can often get away with it. And when they can, many of them do.

 

[Elf01]

The US has minimum wage laws so I don’t understand the disagreement.

You were saying that the Church does not state what a living wage should be. I’m pointing out that that would depend on the area a person is in.

 

[Dracarys]

Paying a worker less than that value leads to more profits for the company, and depending on how many people are competing for that job, the company can often get away with it. And when they can, many of them do.

Companies are in business to make a profit. You act like that is a bad thing. Profits go toward investing in capital assets, dividends to share holders, research and development, bonuses, etc.

Some companies I’ve seen just break even after they make payroll. Do you want to make them give raises? It does not work the way you think.

 

[Dracarys]

I’m pointing out that that would depend on the area a person is in.

I know, but who is the arbiter of this “living wage” from area to area? Or do the bishops in Rome have wages all scheduled out already. They seem to think they know everything else.

 

[Dracarys]

I have asked other posters here to tell why an employer should pay a worker $17 an hour when that worker only makes the company $10 an hour performing his job. Of coarse that is ignoring the employer paying payroll taxes, health care, unemployment, etc. According to my math the employer is paying more than $7 in charity. How long can cash otflows exceed cash inflows before the company has to shut down?

One person here said that any company not able to pay the $17 an hour should no longer be in business. So once again the result is a business shut down, and everyone is laid off. Consumers will not be able to purchase their good or service.

I really don’t know why bishops speak out on things they know nothing about. This is not a matter of theology.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Paying a worker less than that value leads to more profits for the company, and depending on how many people are competing for that job, the company can often get away with it. And when they can, many of them do.

Companies are in business to make a profit. You act like that is a bad thing.

It is not bad in itself. But it does explain how sometimes a worker is not paid an amount equal to the value he adds to the company by his labor.

 

[tafan2]

I really don’t know why bishops speak out on things they know nothing about. This is not a matter of theology.

Why did so many popes the last 130 years speak out about it then?

 

[Dracarys]

Why did so many popes the last 130 years speak out about it then?

Because like many people who are smart in one area they think they know everything about everything. I have a master’s degree in accounting, half way through a master’s in taxation, and I was a CPA for 10 years. I now have a real estate investment company. I feel safe saying I know more about business than all the bishops and pope combined.

 

[Dracarys]

It is not bad in itself. But it does explain how sometimes a worker is not paid an amount equal to the value he adds to the company by his labor.

I have already said it’s the market that determines wages, but you and others believe that the bishops writings override this fact. Of coarse anyone ignoring the market forces does so at their own peril. Catholics who are a slave to every statement put out by the church will have to compete with people of no faith, and our Protestent and Jewish brethren.

Next I brought it down to a more basic level beyond the overall market by pointing out it is financial suicide to pay out more in wages than one earns on any single employee. So in most cases $17 an hour is not possible.

However an employers responsibility does not end there. A corporation has to pay dividends to shareholders. All companies have to be a going concern. so money needs to be set aside for growth, research and development, etc. The responsibilities of companies goes far beyond your narrow view of catering to employees.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

It is not bad in itself. But it does explain how sometimes a worker is not paid an amount equal to the value he adds to the company by his labor.

I have already said it’s the market that determines wages…

Well, now you have said that two different things determine wages. Here you say the market determines the wages. Elsewhere you said that wages are paid for the value the employee brings to the company. These two ways are not always the same.

Catholics who are a slave to every statement put out by the church will have to compete with people of no faith, and our Protestent and Jewish brethren.

It has always been the case since Jesus came that people who follow him must often decide between worldly success and salvation. Those who value the later will happily give up the former.

 

[Dracarys]

Well, now you have said that two different things determine wages. Here you say the market determines the wages. Elsewhere you said that wages are paid for the value the employee brings to the company. These two ways are not always the same.

These two facts are not mutually exclusive. The market is the one that determines wages for most companies. But to accommodate your belief I simply gave the example of what would happen if someone followed your advice and paid workers for more utility than they brought in. As I have explained this is financial suicide and that business model is doomed to fail.

It has always been the case since Jesus came that people who follow him must often decide between worldly success and salvation. Those who value the later will happily give up the former.

Are you saying a business owner who pays his employees the going market rate in the US is at risk of loosing his salvation? There is a lot of judgement going on in these forms. Many people here are so convinced they know everything even the mind of God.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Well, now you have said that two different things determine wages. Here you say the market determines the wages. Elsewhere you said that wages are paid for the value the employee brings to the company. These two ways are not always the same.

These two facts are not mutually exclusive.

I didn’t say they were mutually exclusive. I said they are not always the same.

It has always been the case since Jesus came that people who follow him must often decide between worldly success and salvation. Those who value the later will happily give up the former.

Are you saying a business owner who pays his employees the going market rate in the US is at risk of loosing his salvation? There is a lot of judgement going on in these forms. Many people here are so convinced they know everything even the mind of God.

I’m saying that your argument that we will fail in the world if we follow Jesus is an empty argument.

 

[vz71]

I’m saying that your argument that we will fail in the world if we follow Jesus

This is deceptive at best.
Just plain lying at worst.

Most of this thread is determining what exactly is following Jesus.

That someone doesn’t do things YOUR way in no way makes a statement concerning following Jesus.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

I’m saying that your argument that we will fail in the world if we follow Jesus

This is deceptive at best.
Just plain lying at worst.

Most of this thread is determining what exactly is following Jesus.

That someone doesn’t do things YOUR way in no way makes a statement concerning following Jesus.

I was specifically responding the comment that “Catholics who are a slave to every statement put out by the church will have to compete with people of no faith, and our Protestant and Jewish brethren.” This is clearly an appeal to consider worldly success of more importance than our Church. That is simply not a valid statement of Christian faith.

 

[Dracarys]

didn’t say they were mutually exclusive. I said they are not always the same.

Of coarse they are different, but any business owner who ignores these forces will fail.

I’m saying that your argument that we will fail in the world if we follow Jesus is an empty argument.

Again, with I know everything attitude. Employers do the best they can. If they are or are not “following Jesus” is YOUR opinion. Is there some passage in the Bible or an infallible statement from the pope that thou must pay thy employees $x an hour or thou shalt go to hell? You are just making this up as you go along. President Reagan said something like it’s not that people don’t know, but rather what they say is simply not so.

Again, I know you think you know, but you don’t. People like you are why living in a theocracy is dangerous.

 

[Dracarys]

was specifically responding the comment that “Catholics who are a slave to every statement put out by the church will have to compete with people of no faith, and our Protestant and Jewish brethren.” This is clearly an appeal to consider worldly success of more importance than our Church. That is simply not a valid statement of Christian faith.

Not everything the church says is to followed to the letter. The pope said US should build bridges not walls in regard to illiegal aliens. Should you go out and build a bridge to Mexico?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

didn’t say they were mutually exclusive. I said they are not always the same.

Of coarse they are different, but any business owner who ignores these forces will fail.

Fine. Then we can dispense with the claim that workers are always paid for the value they bring to the company and say that workers are paid according to market forces and leave it at that.

I’m saying that your argument that we will fail in the world if we follow Jesus is an empty argument.

Again, with I know everything attitude.

I don’t know everything, but I do know that worldly success is not everything. In fact, St. Paul says of worldly success: "I even consider everything as a loss because of the supreme good of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have accepted the loss of all things and I consider them so much rubbish, that I may gain Christ."

Employers do the best they can.

Most of them do. Especially the smaller employers who get to know their employees on a personal basis and really do want to do what is fair. But it would be incorrect to say that owners of 20th century coal mines were “doing the best they could” for their workers.

If they are or are not “following Jesus” is YOUR opinion.

You were the one who was warning us about following our bishops.

Is there some passage in the Bible

See above from Philippians 3:8