What wage is just?

[Socrates92]

It could also be argued that a single guy can live cheaper on Ramen noodles if he has to (I did this) while the married guy will demand ever increasing wages because his wife and kids nag him.

Single people have more flexible schedules and can work late or on weekends. Married people are bogged down in family obligations.

True, and those could also theoretically play into the supply-demand dynamics that ultimately determine salaries. It might be true that single people are more willing to work for less and therefore in a completely free market (which doesn’t exist) would be given preference in hiring over a married man. This could vary employer to employer though, depending on he values cheaper labour vs. increased security in my hypothetical. This doesn’t necessarily mean that married individuals will have a inordinately hard time finding jobs. Analogously, many companies price discriminate on products/services, charging different rates for students and seniors than they do for the average adult. Online real-time big-data takes this price discrimination to a whole new level, varying the selling price for products on an individual basis, with prices being updated continuously. The fact that a company offers a cheaper price to a 15yr-old, doesn’t mean that that same company will have a disproportionately hard time making a profit of the “discriminated” against 35yr-old It also doesn’t mean that the 35yr old is somehow harmed in any transaction. The 15yr and 35yr old market are two different things, but there is marginal and mutual benefit to be had from targeting each individually. There is no economic reason that the same logic shouldn’t apply to the labour market. Unfortunately, this sort of thing is hampered by excessive legalism.

Yeah I am not a big fan of lawsuits either, and if it were me I would choose not to sue. But I would really resent that familial status is in any way a criteria for pay.

I might too, and I might seek a job elsewhere if the difference seemed to be excessive. I don’t think I would question an employer’s right to do so though, the same way I wouldn’t question his right to run his business into the ground. I might just choose not to participate in a self-destructive venture.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

@Dracarys I’m curious, I have seen you say that if someone only puts in $9.00/hr worth of work, they shouldn’t be paid $17.00/hr.

What do you think EMTs and Paramedics should make?

 

[Dracarys]

You need to do your homework, those laws are to protect the opposite: ie discrimination against an employee due to his/er family responsibilities. It is not discriminating against them to pay them more because they have greater need.

Not true. Your adding to law based upon your bias. They are anti discrimination laws against familial status. That means having a family or lack there of. No discrimination means you can not discriminate for large or no families.

 

[Dracarys]

have seen you say that if someone only puts in $9.00/hr worth of work, they shouldn’t be paid $17.00/hr.

What do you think EMTs and Paramedics should make?

I am a free market advocate. They get paid the going rate. Same for cops, military etc.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

So, even if it’s much less than what would be considered how much they put in work wise? So, if they’re being paid $7.12/hr, but they are doing $17.00/hr worth of work, you are good with that?

You do realize that we save people’s lives, right? Most people i talk to believe we should be paid much more than we do. That $7.12/hr above is what I would have been paid in Upstate, NY had I worked as an EMT. That is highway robbery.

 

[tafan2]

Yeah I am not a big fan of lawsuits either, and if it were me I would choose not to sue. But I would really resent that familial status is in any way a criteria for pay.

Ok, Why resent this? If I am a single 20 year old employee who is making $20 bucks an hour, and that is a fair rate relative to the labor market, my skills and productiveness, and what I need; and I find our my employer is paying $25/hour to a co-worker with similar skills and productiveness, I would reset it? Did not Jesus give us a parable that is not too far off from this exact scenario. What is it to you what he does with his money? Assuming, of course, you are being paid fairly.

 

[Dracarys]

The 15yr and 35yr old market are two different things, but there is marginal and mutual benefit to be had from targeting each individually

Yeah isn’t the free market great. Too bad the church does not realize that. They are stuck in the 1920s. Unemployment is at an all time low. If your a truck driver you can earn big bucks as inventory is stuffing warehouses. App programers are making six figures. I’ve been saying it all along. If you can contribute skills the money will come. If you expect to get paid because you exist you are going to be disappointed.

 

[Dracarys]

If I am a single 20 year old employee who is making $20 bucks an hour, and that is a fair rate relative to the labor market, my skills and productiveness, and what I need; and I find our my employer is paying $25/hour to a co-worker with similar skills and productiveness, I would reset

Yes I personally would. It’s just like women who find that their counter part males are making more money. If I work hard at a job learning skills, taking classes, coming in early, staying late, etc. only to find my colleague who has not done any of the things I did is making more money just because he and his wife are baby machines I am going to be mad and resentful. I am going to take my newly acquired skills to my employer’s competitor. Let’s see how well my previous employer does with his current family bloated employees who can never work late because they have to take their little brats to soccer practice. I want to be paid based on what I contribute not what I do on my own time.

 

[Dracarys]

You do realize that we save people’s lives, right? Most people i talk to believe we should be paid much more than we do. That $7.12/hr above is what I would have been paid in Upstate, NY had I worked as an EMT. That is highway robbery.

It is not robbery. You signed up knowing what the pay is. Did anyone lie to you? Go where EMT get paid more. Yeah you may have to sell your house. Take classes to be a paramedic to elevate your worth if you have not done so. Maybe the field your in is saturated. Go to a department that has public safety. Yes you’ll have to go to the police academy. So what. Are you just going to stand there hat in hand waiting for someone to pay you what you think your worth? Get er done.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Too old for the police academy at 44. I can also tell you the field that I am in is not saturated. I’m not interested in being a paramedic.

Do you think it’s just that easy to just up and move? I can no longer do that unless I want to leave two of my kids behind because their mother will not move, nor is she required to as we’re divorced.

What I am seeing is that company owners are hoarding more and more of the money and not paying their employees what they are actually worth.

 

[tafan2]

Yes I personally would. It’s just like women who find that their counter part males are making more money. If I work hard at a job learning skills, taking classes, coming in early, staying late, etc. only to find my colleague who has not done any of the things I did is making more money just because he and his wife are baby machines I am going to be mad and resentful. I am going to take my newly acquired skills to my employer’s competitor. Let’s see how well my previous employer does with his current family bloated employees who can never work late because they have to take their little brats to soccer practice. I want to be paid based on what I contribute not what I do on my own time.

So you would just switch to another employer who paid you $20/hour (my previous example said you were paid the market rate)? Knowing that your new employer would not raise your wage any if for some reason you needed a little more money, but your previous employer had a track record of doing so? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Dracarys]

Too old for the police academy at 44. I can also tell you the field that I am in is not saturated. I’m not interested in being a paramedic

44 is NOT old. You’ve been staying in shape right? If you don’t want to advance to a more skilled position as required by your profession I guess you’ll have to be content with your pay. It’s your job to conform to where the money is not the other way around.

What I am seeing is that company owners are hoarding more and more of the money and not paying their employees what they are actually worth.

Companies do not “hoard” money. They invest it, distribute dividends, pay for R&D, etc. Sounds like your not marketable now. I suggest community college to acquire degrees or certifications. HVAC is hot now. Your still a young man. It’s not too late to turn this around!

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Actually, no, I am too old for the police academy. I cannot keep up with the younger men anymore. My back is bad from EMS as are my knees. This job takes a physical toll on the body.

My OPs manager and I were lamenting on the fact that there are very few old EMTs and that’s because many end up disabled.

I have no interest in HVAC, literally zero. I would also prefer to stick with the medical field as that is where my passion is, but not going to go to school to be a nurse either. The math required is well above my ability to learn it.

I have a plan, but I have to wait till next July to start it. In the mean time I have to struggle to get by because the company owner is perfectly fine buying a rescue boat that we don’t need and uses it for personal reasons, rather than giving his employees which make his company run a decent wage.

 

[Dracarys]

have a plan, but I have to wait till next July to start it. In the mean time I have to struggle to get by because the company owner is perfectly fine buying a rescue boat that we don’t need and uses it for personal reasons, rather than giving his employees which make his company run a decent wage.

It sounds to me like what you want is more money. Well you know the the money is not where you are now. Stop blaming your boss or the company. All you listed are things you don’t want to do and can’t (in your mind) do. Your smart enough to write well here, and you are smart enough to do the EMT job. Take inventory and stop being intimidated. I’ve known many RNs who are far from geniuses. If they can do it so can you. If your weak in math take applicable courses at community college. Get to where you need to be. Nurses are in high demand, earn great money, and they can easily move to other states.

Just because something is hard does not mean it’s impossible.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

I cannot move to another state. You have read that above, yes? Seems to me you are suggesting I leave my two kids behind.

I have a plan to go to school to be a surgical tech in July 2020. That is what I am sticking to. Much prefer that over being a nurse.

Would I like to make more money, yes! Do want to enjoy my job, yes!! Nursing isn’t for me. I know my limitations as everyone has them.

 

[Dracarys]

Knowing that your new employer would not raise your wage any if for some reason you needed a little more money, but your previous employer had a track record of doing so? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Now your adding to the scenario. If I had an employer who pays more money to someone because he has a family, and not because he is a better performer I don’t believe I would get raises. My employer couldn’t afford it since the guy with the family is probably creating a deficit. The employer is stupidly paying him more than he is worth.

I reject your entire scenerio as unliekly. I am prepared to advance myself through performance, education, and promotions. The first company you mentioned doesn’t exist, but regardless it’s not for me.

 

[tafan2]

Now your adding to the scenario. If I had an employer who pays more money to someone because he has a family, and not because he is a better performer I don’t believe I would get raises. My employer couldn’t afford it since the guy with the family is probably creating a deficit.

I added nothing to my scenario. The first time I wrote:

If I am a single 20 year old employee who is making $20 bucks an hour, and that is a fair rate relative to the labor market, my skills and productiveness,

The second time I wrote

my previous example said you were paid the market rate

Please point out what changed.

 

[Dracarys]

cannot move to another state. You have read that above, yes? Seems to me you are suggesting I leave my two kids behind.

I just listed moving as an option you could enjoy if you choose.

have a plan to go to school to be a surgical tech in July 2020. That is what I am sticking to. Much prefer that over being a nurse.

Well good. You were not happy with the compensation as an EMT so you found another job with more money and it’s probably less physical work. That’s what I’ve been saying all along. Your previous employer will soon be in your rear view mirror why waste energy lamenting about your prior compensation?

 

[Socrates92]

That’s why I qualified it with “if the difference seemed to be excessive”, implying that I found his criteria for determining compensation to be unreasonable. By nature, that judgement would be highly subjective. It strictly speaking isn’t anything “to me” what he does with his money. I’m not questioning his right to discriminate however he sees fit. I’m just saying I might disagree with his criteria and decision, at which point I would either choose to put up with it, or go elsewhere, at which point he would either do nothing, or reassess his criteria. Fairness is also a highly subjective term. Put in moral language, these types of decisions would include a lot of prudential judgement, which any two people can legitimately disagree about.

 

[lonegreywolf20]

Because I feel like if people just allow the status quo, nothing will be done to remedy the situation.

I love being an EMT, I would prefer top stay in that job as I excel at it, but because we aren’t paid what we should be, I cannot. I feel like if I don’t say something, things won’t get better.