What Was the Apostasy?

[mfbukowski]

An honest apologist would have told the truth, just as he would tell the truth now; and pray the Holy Spirit take care of the rest.

That’s how RCIA works. There is no history that is hidden, or sugar coated, or taboo subjects to be avoided in discussion. There is no scandal happening that we are encouraged to ignore or not to think about.

It is quite miraculous, actually. The Truth remains in all things. Right in the middle of all the difficulties of a fallen world.

Presupposing an honest apologist would have recognized the truth. “Oh gosh! my church is untrue-- I have to tell everyone”

I know you are an honest apologist-- suppose you told everyone that your church was untrue. What would they say? Read these pages to find out.

Can you see that there is a little contradiction here? Who would believe even an honest and truthful apologist? And how would he get his message out when no one believed him, and the message had to be re-copied?

If it were true, it would be have to be miraculous.

And God would have to essentially not allow the sinners to sin. He does not protect people from the consequences of their own sinful action.

“Oh I think I will embezzel this million dollars. Oops. My computer doesn’t work anymore, the mails don’t work, and everytime I pick up the phone, it doesn’t work. Now the electricity is off completely. Even if I go next door, the electricity doesn’t work while I am there. My car won’t start, so I can’t go the the bank… Oh well I guess God is stopping me from doing wrong”

A miracle or several indeed. And a contradiction of natural law and of human freedom.

Boy, that IS a miracle!

 

[truthsilence]

Presupposing an honest apologist would have recognized the truth. “Oh gosh! my church is untrue-- I have to tell everyone”
Which apologist are you talking about now? You lost me with this comment. No one said the church was untrue.
I know you are an honest apologist-- suppose you told everyone that your church was untrue. What would they say? Read these pages to find out. Again, this isn’t making any sense. Which pages are you talking about? The pages of the New Testament? ECF’s?

Can you see that there is a little contradiction here? Who would believe even an honest and truthful apologist? And how would he get his message out when no one believed him, and the message had to be re-copied? No, I don’t see any contradiction. The message I see is, Christian shepherds defending the flock, warning them against heresy, protecting the Faith that has been entrusted to them. Warning others against following a different gospel.

If it were true, it would be have to be miraculous.It was true and it is true.

And God would have to essentially not allow the sinners to sin. He does not protect people from the consequences of their own sinful action. Which sinners? The ones who wrote the New Testament? or the ECF’s? What are you talking about?

“Oh I think I will embezzel this million dollars. Oops. My computer doesn’t work anymore, the mails don’t work, and everytime I pick up the phone, it doesn’t work. Now the electricity is off completely. Even if I go next door, the electricity doesn’t work while I am there. My car won’t start, so I can’t go the the bank… Oh well I guess God is stopping me from doing wrong”

Please explain this tirade for me. I honestly have no clue what you are talking about!

A miracle or several indeed. Amen. I think…And a contradiction of natural law and of human freedom. Huh?

Boy, that IS a miracle! Yes, indeed

 

[Joe_Keenan]

As mentioned earlier, but remains unremarked upon by the Mormon apologists, Mormonism fails the test it applies to Catholicism (the Great and Adominable Church as the Mormons call it). For example:

1. In the early days of the Church, most of the apostles as well as other Mormon leaders, including witnesses to the golden plates, leave Smith.
2. Some of these were instrumental in Smiths death

Joseph Smith and his brother died in a shootout in a Carthage, Illinois jail, 06/27/1844. Upon their death Mormonism breaks up

1. Rigdon, a leading Mormon theologian, steps forward to claim the reins. He’s excommunicated by the 12.
2. Smiths son, the heir apparent, is passed over and Brigham Young takes control
3. JSIII leaves and forms his own Church.

There’s more see, Inside Mormonism by, Isiah Bennet. All citations from there

 

[Joe_Keenan]

Oh, anyone know where the Apostle John and the three Nephites are?

 

[paul_c]

Thank you for your response - and yes I do disagree. I believe that doctrines have changed significantly for the early Church up through the modern RCC. An example, of course, is the Trinity. Another that comes to mind is creation ex nihilo. Saying it doesn’t make it so, so perhaps as time and motivation permits, I can put together something that speaks to it.

Snow,
most of the 5 pages of this thread have discussed your assertion that a general apostacy had to have occurred because of the warnings against the heretics. Only in this short response have you given any indication of what the proposed apostacy might have been. You would think that the most fundamental position of any Non-Catholic Christian religion would be “here’s where the Catholic church went wrong and this is why we think we are the True church of Christ.” In the case of Martin Luther, he felt that where the Catholic church went wrong was in requiring good works in addition to faith for Salvation. That is a position that can be discussed intelligently. You still haven’t really stated what you think are the great errors of the Catholic Church that required Joseph Smith to start his own religion. If you did, we could have a better discussion. As you can see from the caliber of these last few Mormon - Catholic discussions, there really isn’t a cogent set of ideas to discuss.

How exactly has the view of the Trinity changed over time and how has that let people to worship God incorrectly? How does the discussion about whether God created all matter from nothing create an Apostacy ?

So What was the apostacy? You started the threat with a question. What is your proposed answer?

 

[mfbukowski]

Presupposing an honest apologist would have recognized the truth. “Oh gosh! my church is untrue-- I have to tell everyone”
Which apologist are you talking about now? You lost me with this comment. No one said the church was untrue. I know you are an honest apologist-- suppose you told everyone that your church was untrue. What would they say?

It appears you have developed amnesia

An honest apologist would have told the truth, just as he would tell the truth now; and pray the Holy Spirit take care of the rest.

It is quite miraculous, actually. The Truth remains in all things. Right in the middle of all the difficulties of a fallen world.

I was speaking of the same honest apologist you were.

 

[inJESUS]

As mentioned earlier, but remains unremarked upon by the Mormon apologists, Mormonism fails the test it applies to Catholicism (the Great and Adominable Church as the Mormons call it). For example:

1. In the early days of the Church, most of the apostles as well as other Mormon leaders, including witnesses to the golden plates, leave Smith.
2. Some of these were instrumental in Smiths death

Joseph Smith and his brother died in a shootout in a Carthage, Illinois jail, 06/27/1844. Upon their death Mormonism breaks up

1. Rigdon, a leading Mormon theologian, steps forward to claim the reins. He’s excommunicated by the 12.
2. Smiths son, the heir apparent, is passed over and Brigham Young takes control
3. JSIII leaves and forms his own Church.

There’s more see, Inside Mormonism by, Isiah Bennet. All citations from there

i can see another abandonment here.

 

[Stephen168]

It seems clear to me that neither Amos nor Thess. supports the notion that there would be a complete and total apostacy of the NT Church. Amos was speaking of the apostacy of OT Israel and not the NT Church. And even then, it is clear from the next chapter that the apostacy was not total. Similarly, Thess. does not speak of total apostacy, but of a turning away from sound doctrine. The presumption underlying the statement is that there will remain some Church that preaches sound doctrine, from which sinners will turn away. Again, the conclusion of total apostacy is being read into the text by snow, who approaches the matter as an already established doctrine.

I think that snow’s rationale shows, as much as I surmised in the earlier thread, that the LDS position is to first assume (as a matter of dogma) that an apostacy occurred, then move from that assumption into a “rose-colored-for-LDS” view of Scripture and Church history. It’s not very persuasive at all, unless it’s what a person already wants to believe in the first instance.

You really think this stuff can be proven by evidence, which it can’t.

What is your definition of “this stuff?”

The apostasy or lack thereof cannot be proven by evidence.

Then I agree. One can not prove a fantasy. You can not prove the Great and total Apostasy because it never happened.

 

[Chancellare]

Ah yes, either deliberate distortion or just ignorance of logic.

First of all, one cannot prove a negative, not even a Mormon.

What I said was that the apostasy cannot be DISPROVEN, which is what I have been saying for months on this forum. Big difference. If I need to explain it further I will.

Sounds like reverse logic to me.

You cannot prove murder. But you cannot disprove it. Therefore there was murder. (just substitute apostasy)

Following above logic, I can prove aliens are inside White House and Wall Street!

 

[truthsilence]

It appears you have developed amnesia

I was speaking of the same honest apologist you were.

Let me ask the question differently.

You wrote :

Originally Posted by mfbukowski
I have often seen this argument, and it is spurious. Do you really think (1) that an apologist for the church would have written a commentary on the apostasy of his own church and that (2) such a document would have survived, being copied over and over by later scribes and monks?

Here is my question:

** Who** (as in, which apologist)** ever said (or wrote) that the Church was/is untrue?
**
I would answer that, the writers of the NT, the ECF’s, the Pope or my RCIA teacher never have said (or wrote) that the Church was/is untrue. What they have said is, beware (warning! warning!) of false doctrines, and hold fast to the Faith that was passed down to you. I would add that I trust Jesus’ promise to be with His Church (and not leave us as orphans) until the end of time.

And you?..

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m hungry. Oh here’s an apple. It’s just a little rotten. Yummie

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Please show me the perfection of Mormonism.Perhaps we can start with Smith himself.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And God would have to essentially not allow the sinners to sin. He does not protect people from the consequences of their own sinful action.

I think this is a little more deep than this, don’t you?

God gives us free will, yet, His desire is for us to be with Him. He does not protect us from making mistakes. He does not protect us from denying Him completely.

However, I most certainly will argue that He protects us from the consequences. Not the consequences of broken lives or jail time, but most certainly the consequences of Eternal importance. Else, why did the Son of Man suffer and die?

Do you believe that God forgives?

Do you know that confession is a Sacrament of Healing, right?

We are brought to conversion, through the action of the Holy Spirit. Do you remember what these actions are:

contrition
confession
satisfaction

But before a person comes to this point, there first requires a conscience understanding that their actions are an offense against a God. A sin. And the desire to reconcile themselves and seek forgiveness.

How do you believe a person comes to know they sin against God and desire to seek out His mercy?

We believe it is through the Holy Spirit.

“Oh I think I will embezzel this million dollars. Oops. My computer doesn’t work anymore, the mails don’t work, and everytime I pick up the phone, it doesn’t work. Now the electricity is off completely. Even if I go next door, the electricity doesn’t work while I am there. My car won’t start, so I can’t go the the bank… Oh well I guess God is stopping me from doing wrong”

What the deuce bukowski? Is this something someone said happened to them at a F&T meeting? Is this the beginnings of a Mormon faith promoting rumor?

A miracle or several indeed. And a contradiction of natural law and of human freedom.

Boy, that IS a miracle!

You are clearly not understanding something in order to get your brain so twisted up. Care to explain in more coherent terms?

Forgiveness is a miracles. It does not contradict natural law, and it does not go against human freedom.

How did you come to believe that it does?

In the context of the Church. The Church is led by Christ. He is our prophet, our high priest, our king. The Church is made perfect through Him.

The Church is also all the baptized, including you. Do you sin bukowski? Does your sins take anything away from the Holiness of Jesus Christ?

 

[paul_c]

Can someone please tell me what the Mormon view of the the Apostacy is? What was the great abandonment of Christian Doctrine that occured during the Apostolic era? What doctrine was abandonned? You started a thread that Said" What was the apostacy " and 72 posts later, the question has still not been answered. The only thing that has been put forward is that there were warnings about heretics in the ancient church and then a suggestion that the church’s view of the Trinity has changed, without any discussion of how… Again, a religion (Mormonism) was started for the reason that the original Church (Catholic) apostacized, yet no Mormon can identify what is is that drove them away from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. How can this be?

 

[Chancellare]

Presupposing an honest apologist would have recognized the truth. “Oh gosh! my church is untrue-- I have to tell everyone”

But you don’t want to do that because RCC is true. THAT is the miracle.

 

[mfbukowski]

Sounds like reverse logic to me.

You cannot prove murder. But you cannot disprove it. Therefore there was murder. (just substitute apostasy)

Following above logic, I can prove aliens are inside White House and Wall Street!

Go ahead and prove it then. You are wrong of course. I would like you to prove aliens in the white house.

You can prove murder. I am saying you cannot prove the apostasy but you can also not disprove it. It appears no one here has any logic skills whatsoever.

Why go on with this? The apostasy is a matter of faith on both sides. There is evidence on both sides. Believe what you will!

I don’t care if you believe or not – I am not trying to convert anyone, just explain the Mormon position

 

[mfbukowski]

Let me ask the question differently.

You wrote :

Here is my question:

** Who** (as in, which apologist)** ever said (or wrote) that the Church was/is untrue?
**
I would answer that, the writers of the NT, the ECF’s, the Pope or my RCIA teacher never have said (or wrote) that the Church was/is untrue. What they have said is, beware (warning! warning!) of false doctrines, and hold fast to the Faith that was passed down to you. I would add that I trust Jesus’ promise to be with His Church (and not leave us as orphans) until the end of time.

And you?..

Give me a break here. I don’t believe that you are asking this quesiton.

Starting with the reformation there have been thousands of writers who said the Catholic church was not true.

Of course they were not catholic because they believed that the catholic church was not true.

So you want me to cite a practicing catholic who says the church is not true? Can you see that this is maybe a bit contradictory?

Unblievable. I preferred the amnesia.

 

[mfbukowski]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Please show me the perfection of Mormonism.Perhaps we can start with Smith himself.

Ah so you are admitting that catholicism is not perfect? Then you should be looking for the church that is. You may not think that Mormonism is, but how about being a Baptist or a Buddhist then?

I never said that Mormonism had perfect leaders.

 

[Stephen168]

What I said was that-] the apostasy/-] aliens in the white house cannot be DISPROVEN, which is what I have been saying for months on this forum. Big difference. If I need to explain it further I will.

Go ahead and prove it then. You are wrong of course. I would like you to -]prove/-] DISPROVE aliens in the white house.

 

[mfbukowski]

I think this is a little more deep than this, don’t you?

God gives us free will, yet, His desire is for us to be with Him. He does not protect us from making mistakes. He does not protect us from denying Him completely.

However, I most certainly will argue that He protects us from the consequences. Not the consequences of broken lives or jail time, but most certainly the consequences of Eternal importance. Else, why did the Son of Man suffer and die?

Do you believe that God forgives?

Do you know that confession is a Sacrament of Healing, right?

We are brought to conversion, through the action of the Holy Spirit. Do you remember what these actions are:

contrition
confession
satisfaction

But before a person comes to this point, there first requires a conscience understanding that their actions are an offense against a God. A sin. And the desire to reconcile themselves and seek forgiveness.

How do you believe a person comes to know they sin against God and desire to seek out His mercy?

We believe it is through the Holy Spirit.

What the deuce bukowski? Is this something someone said happened to them at a F&T meeting? Is this the beginnings of a Mormon faith promoting rumor?

You are clearly not understanding something in order to get your brain so twisted up. Care to explain in more coherent terms?

Forgiveness is a miracles. It does not contradict natural law, and it does not go against human freedom.

How did you come to believe that it does?

In the context of the Church. The Church is led by Christ. He is our prophet, our high priest, our king. The Church is made perfect through Him.

The Church is also all the baptized, including you. Do you sin bukowski? Does your sins take anything away from the Holiness of Jesus Christ?

Good post, and I think I agree with most of what you’ve said, but I guess I did not express myself clearly.

No my sin does not take away anything from the holiness of Jesus Christ.

My point was that my sin has consequences which Christ will not protect me from. If I try to steal money, God will allow me to do so. Maybe I will get away with it, but there will be consequences. I may have to change my identity or live underground etc, but there WILL be consequences. Maybe I will get caught and go to jail.

There are always consequences for sin.

But catholics appear to believe (this is my point) that there might have been corrupt popes or priests, that mistakes were made, but that the priesthood authority was not affected by these human mistakes. In some way, God suspended the fact of natural consequences for sin by allowing the authority of the church to continue despite sinful practices.

I was saying that this suspension of natural consequences was like the suspension of natural law itself – which I believe God would never allow. If we sin we have consequences.

Catholics believe and acknowledge there were sinful practices - selling indulgences, etc but that they had no consequences.

That is what I was disagreeing with.

God protects us from “eternal consequences of our actions” through the atonement of Christ because our knowledge here is not perfect. Were we to know perfectly that God is real and exactly what He wants us to do, there would be no need for him to protect us, even in that case. That is why we are saved by grace- because we can never have perfect knowledge here in this life. It is through the grace of God that we can return to him at all.

But he does not protect us from temporal consequences of sin. If we screw up, we get the consequences. If we screw up as a church, the church gets the consequences. But He never abandons his children. That is a whole different thing. If our church is apostate and we are doing the best we can, really doing the best we can, in good faith, he judges us accordingly.

So you Catholics have nothing to worry about, if you are sincere.

What is ironic is that this parallels, I think, the Catholic doctrine of invincible ignorance. Maybe not, but it seems like that to me. God loves us, and if we are doing the best we can, we will be judged accordingly.

Anyway, that is what I believe, and is the Mormon position.

 

[Stephen168]

You cannot prove a murder happened. But you cannot disprove a murder happened. Therefore there was murder. (just substitute apostasy)

You can prove murder. I am saying you cannot prove the apostasy but you can also not disprove it. It appears no one here has any logic skills whatsoever.