What Was the Apostasy?

[RebeccaJ]

Not the case. I would like to call you a …well not a nice name. Were you in those bedrooms? What’s your “proof”

Shall we get into the bishops in the priest abuse scandal which HAS been documented, as opposed to your fantasy about Joseph?

I will be more than glad to go there if you insist.

There is nothing more vile than a pedofile who uses a position of trust.

And remember Abraham was a polygamist. How come?

There isn’t a Catholic who believes that pedophiles are innocent. Bishop or not.

So yeah, let’s discuss the founder of you church, his philandering behavior and how he instituted this behavior as God defined, angel delivered, DOCTRINE.

Then you can point out where there ever was a bishop or anyone else in the Catholic church who declared their abhorrent and sinful behavior as Catholic doctrine. OH, where did that happen? Let’s see…IT DIDN’T.

And to clarify, we’re talking polyandry here, bigamy, NOT OT-style polygamy. What Joseph Smith was teaching people in this regard was never instituted by God, ever, in any age.

And if you want to start pulling out documented sexual cases of clerics, perhaps you should do some googling re: your own back yard. Unfortunately, you’ll find more than a few cases of sexual abuse being covered up by clerics of your church.

 

[mfbukowski]

I never said that Catholics are perfect. Including the Pope. I believe we have covered this before.

If we’re explaining beliefs here. Catholics believe that Christ IS The Church. We are the Church.

Perhaps if you understood that Jesus is fully and human divine you would understand The Church. I believe it was Nebula who pointed out that the understanding of God is the foundation to everything.

GOD is perfect. Humans are not.

Do you understand at least that much? Or have you gone off to obstinate land where you only pick and choose what to reply to in order to continue your intellectually dishonest posts.

Showing off for other Mormons, or what?

I don’t know where you are getting this stuff. I told you you had a good post, and that we agreed on some stuff and then you come back with this stuff.

I agree that Jesus is fully human and fully divine. So what does that have to do with the apostasy? You are not making sense

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t know where you are getting this stuff. I told you you had a good post, and that we agreed on some stuff and then you come back with this stuff.

I agree that Jesus is fully human and fully divine. So what does that have to do with the apostasy? You are not making sense

I think you forget what you write.

You seem to have this idea that bad popes = apostasy. This is the discussion. What are you discussing?

 

[mfbukowski]

Not all of them were. You need to read the book I already recommended…“In Sacred Lonliness”

And while you are at it, explain how it is that this is NOT adultery. Seriously bukowski, this is the fruit of Mormonism. It has people so upside down in their thinking that YOU ARE DEFENDING ADULTERY.

“The husband gave permission.” So the hell what! This is what we call today, swinging. Why don’t you write a letter to your favorite apostle in SLC and ask if swinging is adultery.

There is no evidence of this and it is self contradictory

Do you think “my favorite apostle” has never heard this argument? You discovered something new? And he is going to tell me (theoretically) that you are right?

You are making no sense whatsoever. You really want me to ask a Mormon apostle if Jospeh was an adulterer?

 

[mfbukowski]

I think you forget what you write.

You seem to have this idea that bad popes = apostasy. This is the discussion. What are you discussing?

You quote what I write. Are you hitting the sauce or what?

What does Jesus being divine have to do with bad popes? Man you are getting weird in your old age. I thought we had some basis of communication, but where is all this coming from?

 

[RebeccaJ]

You quote what I write. Are you hitting the sauce or what?

Nah, I have work tomorrow.

What does Jesus being divine have to do with bad popes? Man you are getting weird in your old age. I thought we had some basis of communication, but where is all this coming from?

Trying to explain your Catholic faith to you old man.

 

[RebeccaJ]

There is no evidence of this and it is self contradictory

Evidence of what, that married women married Joseph Smith? The evidence is there, for any to read, even Mormons.

Do you think “my favorite apostle” has never heard this argument? You discovered something new? And he is going to tell me (theoretically) that you are right?

Trying to get your brain to work like a normal person. I see that is not possible. I could tell you the sky were blue and if Mormon doctrine were that it is red, it would be pointless for me to ask you walk out your door and look at the sky. You’d tell me, “So what, you think no one has ever shown me that before?”

You are making no sense whatsoever. You really want me to ask a Mormon apostle if Jospeh was an adulterer?

No, ask if swinging is adultery. Because what you keep saying, is that is isn’t. Something about the husband approved therefore it’s all okee dokee in the sight of God.

 

[paul_c]

Lies. This is not an LDS website-- why would you lie about that?

Click on this on the front page of the site
“This Site is not Affiliated with the LDS Church”

Joseph was sealed to those women with their husband’s permission. Why do you think they did that?

I’m sorry that I was mistaken that this wasn’t an LDS website. I just took it to be by accident by the title of the website. In any case, you are not denying it happened, obviously, but you are giving the rationale that the women were “sealed” to Joseph with their husband’s permission. Why do I think they did that?
Well, one reason is that he was the head of their church and he had the power to exploit them. If they refused him, they would be ostracized by their entire social, religious, and financial network. In addition, some of them might have been gullible enough to believe his doctrine that if they allowed him to have sex with their wives that the entire family would have a higher place in heaven…

If you heard this about another “religious leader”, say Jim Jones or Charles Manson, , wouldn’t you think this was just another case of a con-man exploiting his followers?

This has to be a very uncomfortable situation for you, an ex-catholic. How can you possibly defend this situation and how can you believe that such a man would actually be the messenger of God?

 

[Stephen168]

Saying that aliens in the white house CANNOT BE DISPROVEN is saying there MIGHT be aliens in the white house.

Can you see the difference between saying that something MIGHT BE TRUE is different that saying that something is PROVEN TO BE TRUE?

Yes, I do. But when Mormons came to my door (1985) they don’t say it might me true. They said it is true and tried to prove it as a historical event. They failed then too.

Now you are telling me that the Latter Day Saint Movement is based on what MIGHT be true.

 

[inJESUS]

Is there an apostacy in Mormonism?

 

[Stephen168]

So yeah, let’s discuss the founder of you church, his philandering behavior and how he instituted this behavior as God defined, angel delivered, DOCTRINE.

Then you can point out where there ever was a bishop or anyone else in the Catholic church who declared their abhorrent and sinful behavior as Catholic doctrine.

Very interesting!!
I’ll have to remember this.

Christians have never practiced polygamy

 

[mfbukowski]

I’m sorry that I was mistaken that this wasn’t an LDS website. I just took it to be by accident by the title of the website. In any case, you are not denying it happened, obviously, but you are giving the rationale that the women were “sealed” to Joseph with their husband’s permission. Why do I think they did that?
Well, one reason is that he was the head of their church and he had the power to exploit them. If they refused him, they would be ostracized by their entire social, religious, and financial network. In addition, some of them might have been gullible enough to believe his doctrine that if they allowed him to have sex with their wives that the entire family would have a higher place in heaven…

If you heard this about another “religious leader”, say Jim Jones or Charles Manson, , wouldn’t you think this was just another case of a con-man exploiting his followers?

This has to be a very uncomfortable situation for you, an ex-catholic. How can you possibly defend this situation and how can you believe that such a man would actually be the messenger of God?

That’s like asking why some carpenter’s son who went around getting people riled up against the roman empire and calling himself god and faking magic tricks to trick gullible people into believing his lies, and who created so much discord that the Jews and Romans finally had to crucify him with some other criminals was the savior of the earth. How can you possibly believe that? And then his followers stole his body from the tomb to fake his resurrection.

It’s a matter of persepective.

 

[mfbukowski]

Yes, I do. But when Mormons came to my door (1985) they don’t say it might me true. They said it is true and tried to prove it as a historical event. They failed then too.

Now you are telling me that the Latter Day Saint Movement is based on what MIGHT be true.

1985 huh?

Did you put up a plaque or something? “Defeated two twenty year old Mormons in a debate on the apostasy, June 1 1985”

Ask some protestants about the apostasy next time.

And you believe that a piece of bread is flesh and blood.

Good idea. I’ll take my chances on the apostasy being true above that one any day.

 

[Stephen168]

1985 huh?

Did you put up a plaque or something? “Defeated two twenty year old Mormons in a debate on the apostasy, June 1 1985”

Ask some protestants about the apostasy next time.

And you believe that a piece of bread is flesh and blood.

Good idea. I’ll take my chances on the apostasy being true above that one any day.

My honest advice is that it is better to use your time elsewhere. I am tying up some lose ends, and then I am going to give up on these losers. It is a waste of time. There is no honest dialogue here, just name calling and baseless accusations.

 

[paul_c]

That’s like asking why some carpenter’s son who went around getting people riled up against the roman empire and calling himself god and faking magic tricks to trick gullible people into believing his lies, and who created so much discord that the Jews and Romans finally had to crucify him with some other criminals was the savior of the earth. How can you possibly believe that? And then his followers stole his body from the tomb to fake his resurrection.

It’s a matter of persepective.

Wait a minute. I went back to that web site. lds-mormon.com It has advertisements for BYU and Mormon singles clubs. It may not be affiliated with the Mormon church (and I couldn’t find your disclaimer on the website), but it is clearly pro-Mormon.

 

[ryanoneil]

John6:48
I am the bread of life.
49
Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
50
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
52
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
53
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54
Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
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Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
57
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

Luke 22:15
He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer,
16
for, I tell you, I shall not eat it (again) until there is fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
17
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and said, “Take this and share it among yourselves;
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for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
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Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”
20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

1 Cor 11:23
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.
27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.

 

[mfbukowski]

Wait a minute. I went back to that web site. lds-mormon.com It has advertisements for BYU and Mormon singles clubs. It may not be affiliated with the Mormon church (and I couldn’t find your disclaimer on the website), but it is clearly pro-Mormon.

Unbelievable. You didn’t look very hard. There is a link right under the main banner on page 1 of the site saying “This website is not affiliated with the LDS church” or words to that effect. If you click on the link it takes you to a page which says:

An unsuspecting surfer could run onto your site (as many posters have stated that they ran into it by accident) thinking they have found something that is somehow affiliated with the LDS church. Now I know that being a pursuer of truth, you would never want to mislead or deceive people into believing that they are tapping into a church affiliated website. Or even running into your site accidentally while seeking for something vastly different than the opinions expressed here. Don’t you think a more accurate website might be one of the following:

1-questioningmormonism.com
2-criticsofmormonism.com
3-exmormons.com
4-ivegotanaxetogrindagainstmormons.com
5-rebuttalstomormons.com
6-imafreethinkerthusanexmormon.com

I don’t think any of the above would accurately describe my site.

Even a little “This Site is not Affiliated with the LDS Church” on the home page would work. Thanks for considering this matter.

Will do on the disclaimer. However, it was never my intent to make it look as if, nor could an intelligent person conclude that, my site is in any way affiliated with the church. You’ll remember (as I state on the first page) that the church is no longer to be called lds or mormon anymore anyhow.

I know that quote doesn’t make a lot of sense in a few places, but that again shows the caliber of the person doing the writing.

The site allegedly is set up to seek dialogue, but is about as much into dialogue as this forum is. In other words, none.

 

[Chancellare]

Go ahead and prove it then. You are wrong of course. I would like you to prove aliens in the white house.

You can prove murder. I am saying you cannot prove the apostasy but you can also not disprove it. It appears no one here has any logic skills whatsoever.

Why go on with this? The apostasy is a matter of faith on both sides. There is evidence on both sides. Believe what you will!

I don’t care if you believe or not – I am not trying to convert anyone, just explain the Mormon position

Sure, by reverse logic!
Fallacy, others call it.

 

[paul_c]

Unbelievable. You didn’t look very hard. There is a link right under the main banner on page 1 of the site saying “This website is not affiliated with the LDS church” or words to that effect. If you click on the link it takes you to a page which says:

I know that quote doesn’t make a lot of sense in a few places, but that again shows the caliber of the person doing the writing.

The site allegedly is set up to seek dialogue, but is about as much into dialogue as this forum is. In other words, none.

You are right. Now that you pointed me to the website, I realize that what you say is true. This is a website published by an ex-Mormon who is obviously set on disproving the tenets of Mormonism. I was thrown off by all the Mormon advertizing on the site. (BYU, Mormon singles, etc). Interesting that those would be there.

So where would you point us to get the Mormon view of these elements of Joseph Smith’s life?

 

[Stephen168]

Yes, I do. But when Mormons came to my door (1985) they don’t say it might me true. They said it is true and tried to prove it as a historical event. They failed then too.

Did you put up a plaque or something? “Defeated two twenty year old Mormons in a debate on the apostasy, June 1 1985”

It’s not that big of a deal because like you said

The apostasy … cannot be proven by evidence.

No evidence because there was no apostasy.

Now you are telling me that the Latter Day Saint Movement is based on what MIGHT be true.

The Apostasy might be true, the Book of Mormon might be true, Smith might be a prophet, or not.

And you believe that a piece of bread is flesh and blood.

Yes, that is why I know there was never an apostasy and the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ.